The Black Legion

[Marshal Rohr]

I think debating the contributing factors does a real disservice to the unspoken half that would be Sigismund's point of view of the last thousand years. The thought going through his head when he made the gambit to go for the kill wasn't 'oww my aching back' or 'there's too many Necromundan immigrants on my battleship' or 'this milk jug is too heavy'. Whatever that thought was, is Sigismund at his core, his truest self as a character in fiction and that is how I will remember him. My own version of his thoughts as he made his choice to die.

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[Extropian]

I think debating the contributing factors does a real disservice to the unspoken half that would be Sigismund's point of view of the last thousand years. The thought going through his head when he made the gambit to go for the kill wasn't 'oww my aching back' or 'there's too many Necromundan immigrants on my battleship' or 'this milk jug is too heavy'. Whatever that thought was, is Sigismund at his core, his truest self as a character in fiction and that is how I will remember him. My own version of his thoughts as he made his choice to die.

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I agree. He didn't make that choice because of he fact he was aged, he made it because it was his duty. However, he probably wouldnt have had to make it if is fight had happened at Terra or some other earlier location, because he would have turned Abaddon into diced idiot in short order without needing to.

 

In short, Sigismund really was the uncompromising, damn near unstoppable Imperial hero he had always seemed to be, both when he was in his prime and when he wasn't.

[HeritorA]

I will repeat the question lost in the discussion of female companion dominant position in every A D-B book (which is truly show that he is a family man for along time of him being a writer)

Delvarus is possessed now?

P.S. Create a separate thread please for female characters in A D-B books.

[Extropian]

I will repeat the question lost in the discussion of female companion dominant position in every A D-B book (which is truly show that he is a family man for along time of him being a writer)

Delvarus is possessed now?

P.S. Create a separate thread please for female characters in A D-B books.

 

Yes he is.

[Robster The Lobster]

 

I think debating the contributing factors does a real disservice to the unspoken half that would be Sigismund's point of view of the last thousand years. The thought going through his head when he made the gambit to go for the kill wasn't 'oww my aching back' or 'there's too many Necromundan immigrants on my battleship' or 'this milk jug is too heavy'. Whatever that thought was, is Sigismund at his core, his truest self as a character in fiction and that is how I will remember him. My own version of his thoughts as he made his choice to die.

.

I agree. He didn't make that choice because of he fact he was aged, he made it because it was his duty. However, he probably wouldnt have had to make it if is fight had happened at Terra or some other earlier location, because he would have turned Abaddon into diced idiot in short order without needing to.

 

In short, Sigismund really was the uncompromising, damn near unstoppable Imperial hero he had always seemed to be, both when he was in his prime and when he wasn't.

I don't think this fight, though beautifully done, is an indication who would have won in their prime.

 

One, they are both beasts, the pinnacle of astartes power. It like taking a top 10 list of say basketball players and having them play each other. The fact is they all can beat each other.

 

Two, even though Sigismund is old, the book also show that Abaddon really don't want to kill him, Khayon even remarks that he try to befriend the only person who will never listen to him. And if memory serves me right he don't use the talon until the very end.

[A D-B]

I've been incredibly grateful for (and humbled by!) the reaction to The Fight, across this forum and elsewhere. It's been amazing, though I confess I wasn't super-worried about it to begin with, since it's one of those things that most people usually get and click with. But the analysis here is especially involved, and especially good at picking up the nuances.

 

But that's not what this post is about. This post is about Delvarus, who:

 

...was indeed Possessed, just like his Horus Heresy card! (As someone noted earlier, before I could jump in and look cool and knowledgeable, damn them.)

[Sete]

I've been incredibly grateful for (and humbled by!) the reaction to The Fight, across this forum and elsewhere. It's been amazing, though I confess I wasn't super-worried about it to begin with, since it's one of those things that most people usually get and click with. But the analysis here is especially involved, and especially good at picking up the nuances.

 

But that's not what this post is about. This post is about Delvarus, who:

 

...was indeed Possessed, just like his Horus Heresy card! (As someone noted earlier, before I could jump in and look cool and knowledgeable, damn them.)

Easy there cowboy. I haven't read the fight yet. I shall bring you RECKONING!

(But from what I've read, seems you handled it quite well.

Also Kudos for the Eternal Crusader upgrade.)

[A D-B]

 

I've been incredibly grateful for (and humbled by!) the reaction to The Fight, across this forum and elsewhere. It's been amazing, though I confess I wasn't super-worried about it to begin with, since it's one of those things that most people usually get and click with. But the analysis here is especially involved, and especially good at picking up the nuances.

 

But that's not what this post is about. This post is about Delvarus, who:

 

...was indeed Possessed, just like his Horus Heresy card! (As someone noted earlier, before I could jump in and look cool and knowledgeable, damn them.)

Easy there cowboy. I haven't read the fight yet. I shall bring you RECKONING!

 

You don't count, you said you're never going to like it. I'm braced for voodoo doll-style phantom pains any day now. I don't welcome them, but I accept them with all the noblesse oblige that I can summon (read: that I can fake).

 

Although you get a lot of extra love for bringing me reckoning, especially in caps. I usually only get Pez at book signings, so reckoning will be a great change of pace. Plus, you know I love you anyway, so no harm, no foul.

[Sete]

One last question ADB.

About the Eternal Crusader being a Gloriana ship, what made you go for that decision?

Lore wise it always had been a refitted battlebarge, why the change?

 

I always had an ideal knight in mind,Nuno Álvares Pereira, And I realized that despite its not the ending I wanted, it would not make the character favours to die of old age, it's not the Astartes way, like my previous example. I would not call him my hero, but certainly an inspiration.

 

From the reaction of my fellow Frater, congrats on another great book.

[b1soul]

I don't see how hypnoconditioning affects aging...I think the key difference is BA are known for extreme longevity and less aging

 

That said, I'd be surprised and honestly very annoyed if it's implied that 1,100 year old Sig is just as good as Sig at the Siege of Terra. That doesn't seem to be the case, based on most posts here

[Marshal Rohr]

Was there a significance to Sogismunds nine Sword Brethren I missed? Like is that an Arthurian thing I didn't know about, because it was my favorite little detail and I can't find any info on it


As for Dante, it's a really weird argument that Sigismund has to be old and decrepit at 1,100 but not Dante because of geneseed, when Sigismunds gene seed would be activated by Primarch blood, a trait unique to Blood Angels in 40k. If you're argument is solely that older marines should be slow or something, logically, it would also apply to Dante.

[Sete]

The Knights Templar had 9 founders.

[Marshal Rohr]

The Knights Templar had 9 founders.

Then ADB has committed the gravest of heresies and I will burn my e-copy. The Black Templars are clearly based on Teutonic Knights.

[Sete]

 

The Knights Templar had 9 founders.

Then ADB has committed the gravest of heresies and I will burn my e-copy. The Black Templars are clearly based on Teutonic Knights.

Im a firm believer that they actually are a mix of several orders, Teutonic Knights Included.

 

All this talk about Knights is giving me liber ideas.

[Calas Typhon]

I thought they were knights hospitaller in space!

[Aquila]

but even ignoring Space Marines and focusing on humans again, Khârn is no more or less close to Lotara than any other ranking officer / Primarch's adjutant with the flagship's captain would be.

 

 

Oh man, Lotara Sarrin alone should put that entire insane debate to rest. What a great character. 

 

If you read about her getting so pissed off that she shoots a marine captain in the face with a laspistol, and you stop to think "Huh I wonder why ADB chose to make this character female, it probably should have been a man instead" instead of "Holy what a badass!", you seriously need to put some thought into what is going on inside your own head instead.

 

Sarrin is a force of nature and reading her sections where she verbally jousts with psychotic world eaters as if she's one of them, even casually insulting and teasing Angron, was a real treat to read.

[Calas Typhon]

Put it to rest dude

[HeritorA]

 

 

I think debating the contributing factors does a real disservice to the unspoken half that would be Sigismund's point of view of the last thousand years. The thought going through his head when he made the gambit to go for the kill wasn't 'oww my aching back' or 'there's too many Necromundan immigrants on my battleship' or 'this milk jug is too heavy'. Whatever that thought was, is Sigismund at his core, his truest self as a character in fiction and that is how I will remember him. My own version of his thoughts as he made his choice to die.

.

I agree. He didn't make that choice because of he fact he was aged, he made it because it was his duty. However, he probably wouldnt have had to make it if is fight had happened at Terra or some other earlier location, because he would have turned Abaddon into diced idiot in short order without needing to.

 

In short, Sigismund really was the uncompromising, damn near unstoppable Imperial hero he had always seemed to be, both when he was in his prime and when he wasn't.

I don't think this fight, though beautifully done, is an indication who would have won in their prime.

 

One, they are both beasts, the pinnacle of astartes power. It like taking a top 10 list of say basketball players and having them play each other. The fact is they all can beat each other.

 

Two, even though Sigismund is old, the book also show that Abaddon really don't want to kill him, Khayon even remarks that he try to befriend the only person who will never listen to him. And if memory serves me right he don't use the talon until the very end.

 

 

Partly true, I think. They are the pinnacle of war if - they are not in depression (One of the most curious points of BL books is that authors make SM feel depressed) or without the goal in life. Emperor created them as a weapon to conquer the dark. But what happens if they lose the goal? The answer is the Traitor Legions in the Eye of Terror.

They are both not in their prime. The difference is that for Abby time flowed slower - he is more agile then Sigi.

 

I've been incredibly grateful for (and humbled by!) the reaction to The Fight, across this forum and elsewhere. It's been amazing, though I confess I wasn't super-worried about it to begin with, since it's one of those things that most people usually get and click with. But the analysis here is especially involved, and especially good at picking up the nuances.

 

But that's not what this post is about. This post is about Delvarus, who:

 

...was indeed Possessed, just like his Horus Heresy card! (As someone noted earlier, before I could jump in and look cool and knowledgeable, damn them.)

 

You are an author and it's your right to do as you please - and it's just my opinion but

kind of curious why you made him Possessed? From his image in Betrayer - he would have been the least person to ever become possessed by daemon. So I think somewhere here a great story in the making is buried.

Also that's amazing point from the guys about the HH card. Totally missed that, so I'm not so old

 

Also I seconded Sete question

 

About the Eternal Crusader being a Gloriana ship, what made you go for that decision? Lore wise it always had been a refitted battlebarge, why the change? Did we on BaC in our Gloriana class in HH discussion made you do that? To fix the inconsistency between BL and FW books about Gloriana type? Or did Laurie after the discussion decided to change the role and make Gloriana totally available not only as a flagships for 20 primarchs?

 

 

[Marshal Rohr]

The fight is not quantifiable in terms of 'who was more agile',it specifically states Sigismund could move easier in his power armor than Abaddon in his Terminator Armor. It isn't determined 'who was a better swordsman' because Abaddon fought with a single hand and avoided using the Talon until the last minute. Trying to break it down beyond the words on the page is a pointless exercise in circle jerkery and literally ruined all the threads about Emperor's Gift (Grimnar vs. Grey Knights). We should avoid it in this thread.

[Scribe]

Par for the course I'm afraid Rohr.

 

I await my paper copy....

[b1soul]

To Rohr...

 

That's not really the "argument"

 

Nobody is saying SM should be hobbling around with canes or generally decrepit after 1,100 years. What a gross exaggeration.

 

That said, we do know that SM age and get slower and weaker, albeit at a much more gradual pace than mortals, i.e. over long centuries

 

We also know Dante is really old but as a Blood Angel, he doesn't appear visibly aged (someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong).

 

Thus I think it's fairly clear that Sig is not in his prime after 11 centuries. He's still deadly, but he's moderately less incredible than the Imperial murder-machine at the Siege who cut down Traitor champions left and right.

 

It's harder to tell whether Dante is still in his prime in current 40k, because of the BA gift of extreme longevity even for SM.

[Marshal Rohr]

If that isn't the argument then Dante is irrelevent to the discussion. Dante would be more or less just like Sigismund at his age. They both have geneseed activated by Primarch blood. Nothing else is relevant unless your somehow suggesting Dante's hair color means he's gets better with age, which would obviously be a :cuss absurd argument. Are you honestly attempt to say that one thousand year old space marine is a special snowflake who the rules don't apply to?

[1ncarnadine]

If that isn't the argument then Dante is irrelevent to the discussion. Dante would be more or less just like Sigismund at his age. They both have geneseed activated by Primarch blood. Nothing else is relevant unless your somehow suggesting Dante's hair color means he's gets better with age, which would obviously be a absurd argument. Are you honestly attempt to say that one thousand year old space marine is a special snowflake who the rules don't apply to?

 

Dante is probably irrelevant, because it's not the same Primarch's blood, and the transformative effect that the Sons of Sanguinius undergo is just flat out different.

 

From Retribution:

 

 

This transformation's effects were even more pronounced and more fundamental than that of the Space Wolves or the Salamanders, both of which featured unique stigmata of their own. The aggressive over-writing of the aspirant's gene-helix by the blood of their Primarch was capable of transfiguring the rad-scarred and twisted inhabitants of Baal to create 'perfected' warriors, living icons of the physical ideal of the Legiones Astartes, each one an echo of their Primarch, called 'the Angel', Sanguinius in his fearsome glory. There was a price however for this power, and the process of transformation was a more arcane, elaborate and painful one than that endured by any other Legion. Even with the direct infusion of its Primarch's own blood to stabilise the process, the rate of fatalities among aspirants was frighteningly high.

 

Comparisons need to be made with that in mind. Blood Angels have always been noted as long lived in the lore. So maybe Blood Angels from the Heresy era were even longer lived, but we don't know that for sure, either.

[Calas Typhon]

I never understood Blood Angles living longer lives than most other bloodlines. It just seems to be something implied because they are vampires, Dante is the only real current Astartes we have by the time the 42nd millennium rolls around that has lived a massively long life. It seems odd that a bloodline with the flaws it has and the way they make war would live long enough to prove that they live longer lives than other bloodlines. Unless there was one once upon a time who just sat around reading poems in a dark room for 2000 years.

 

Dante seems to be a rare exception to me. 

 

I can't comment on Sigismund's appearance in this book simply because I have not read it yet. Looking visibly aged is not really an indication of power within the Astartes because different Legions seem to age at different paces. If we take youthfulness as an example, Dante just shows that the Blood Angels do not appear any less aged as times go on, unless he dyes his hair and regularly gets cosmetic surgery, which is a massive possibility. Whereas we compare that with the Space Wolves, who age pretty fast compared to other Legionaries of the same age. Their hair whitens, the teeth grow and they appear visibly rugged. 

 

I mean it sounds obvious to me that Sigismund is slowed down simply through reading the spoilers. I am not really talking about him here because its obvious time has done something to him. I am just making the point that perhaps looking older or younger does not necessarily mean that are weaker or slower than what they were or contain a certain amount of power compared to another of their age. 

 

If any of that makes any bloody sense at all.

[Scribe]

You need to stop italicizing your posts. :p

 

Wont read another one.