BoomWolf Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 Honestly, the biggest let-down, is that we are somehow the only legion who's trait has ZERO effect on any and all helbrutes/cultists. Heck, our trait does not effect tzangors! (or bowgoat for that matter) It really feels something is missing there. psyker range is awesome, but nothing AT ALL for anything else? You realize that TS tzzangors/bowgors are exactly the same as "chaos faction" tzzangors/bowgors? They get the major focus of our codex, and then they are not even gaining from our codex! this is insane! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/page/39/#findComment-4995066 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ahzek451 Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 I feel the casting values for a lot of our powers is too high. For the change discipline, our rubrics are stuck with it and only a few are actually useful. Doombolt? Never going to use at a 9. The rest are 7, and the healing spell doesnt help rubrics. I would have much rather seen our legion trait: re-roll one of the dice when casting a spell. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/page/39/#findComment-4995068 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archaeinox Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 I play at least 3 HQs in a Battalion 99% of the time. I'm very excited to put the Helm of the Third Eye and the Dark Matter Crystal on two Exalted Sorcerers. I also think it's cool to stack a dakka predator w/ combi bolter and use the Inferno Bolts stratagem on it. So yeah at this point I'm already down 4 CPs but whatever. The stratagem only buffs one gun, not all guns. There is seriously no reason to ever use it. I play new players all the time as a hobby store retailer so I am definitely spending the 3 to make an Inferno Bolt dakka pred against them, it'll be fun. I'm not competitive and don't play tournaments so I'm happy with the book Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/page/39/#findComment-4995075 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven1 Posted January 27, 2018 Author Share Posted January 27, 2018 @Archaeinox, I think this in particular is a issue for the FAQ. The strategem needs to effect all "bolter" weapons on a vehicle. If you bring a land raider, helbrute, Defiler (can take a twin heavy bolter?) It's good, it's a way to bring more dakka without spending points. But why do i have to spend it twice on a predator. And why on earth would I spend it on a combi bolter. Any flamer option should be replaced with warpflamer, combi bolter with inferno combi bolter and heavy flamer with heavy warp flamer. It doesnt require GW to change kits just update entries. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/page/39/#findComment-4995087 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archaeinox Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 ..We could use a lot of faq and errata.. but i can't really control that and am at the mercy of gw Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/page/39/#findComment-4995104 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar K. Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 I'm specifically referencing the SO and Rubric Marines as unit kits. All others were HQ or AoS+Sprue. I basically just explained how the core of the legion was neglected while the development team seemed to concentrate on synergy of all the new entries. What I'd recommend is something we brought up early in this thread, auras for the sorcerers in unit that reflect the TS cults. Corvidae for RR 1 to hit, Pyrae for RR 1 to wound, Athaneans for RR 1 on all saves, etc. There were options without kits but they took a different path, which I'm fine with, but completely neglected the base of the Legion. Nothing for any form of Rubric, a nerf (pending FAQ) to Soul Reaper access, and we didn't even get the rest of the model options for stock Tzaangors (ie. Shields or 2 handers). It's unfortunate, and I still only see the direction of TS as Abhuman Zoo ranglers with robot butlers instead of slavers who burn those who oppse them, as Tzeentch does, and integrate anything that benefits their pursuit of knowledge. Edit: Regarding I won't play what I don't like is a fallacy. People play what they have, or for reasons beyond what the rules are. If I'm primarily a hobbyist and enjoy the TS esthetics then that's what I'll end up playing. Money and time are finite. Starting a new army in 40k is a significant investment and players shouldn't see the direction of their core shift away from their namesake. Adding these units to raise the data slate level to warrant a codex shouldn't have came at the cost of any focus for the Rubrics. The narrative that has formed or drived the fan base has been focused on the Rubric and pursuit of knowledge, not taking in abhumans or beasts. It's like telling your wife you want Double Bacon Cheeseburger and she brings you home a Cheeseburger Pizza. While delicious, it isn't doesn't fill the craving and doesn't meet the expectations clearly laid out. As every husband here knows, if we actually made a decision on what we wanted for dinner without saying I don't care we're serious. Just as an TS outsider perspective I get some parts of your feedback and think others are just too wishful. But let me go through your points. I agree with you that more could have been done with the core of the army but at the same time I think that expecting the cults to be fleshed out that much is a bit too much of wishful thinking. While I completely agree with you that AM for example did get all that great stuff and so do certain Xenos I also think that the reason why GW hasn't really done it for Chaos (yet) also has to do with their vision to ideally have Chaos and Imperium players play with soup/new models/mixed models. In you second point, indeed the core, I do agree. There seems to be no real inspiration there and by Death Guard comparison again I'm just more dissapointed with the complete lack of new models or upgrade kits that have something directly to do with Thousand Sons and less with Tzaangors. Tzaangors are indeed nice and all but I see them as an extra to the Legion not the core of the Legion, so to say. My point is not a fallacy at all however. Because hobbyist usually don't play as much as the semi-competitive gamer. Stating people play with what they have is not so much the case with new releases. What I see here is that GW wants you to use the newer Tzaangors, it's clear you don't want to do that. Where I agree is that there is a lot of focus on them and I get why your dissapointed by that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/page/39/#findComment-4995105 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zodd1888 Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 Lol I do want to play with them though... They're tremendously broken. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/page/39/#findComment-4995216 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arachnofiend Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 Honestly, the biggest let-down, is that we are somehow the only legion who's trait has ZERO effect on any and all helbrutes/cultists. Heck, our trait does not effect tzangors! (or bowgoat for that matter) It really feels something is missing there. psyker range is awesome, but nothing AT ALL for anything else? You realize that TS tzzangors/bowgors are exactly the same as "chaos faction" tzzangors/bowgors? They get the major focus of our codex, and then they are not even gaining from our codex! this is insane! To be fair, we're also the only legion who's trait affects our lord of war choice. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/page/39/#findComment-4995224 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 To be also fair, Psyker are force multiplier and increased range makes it easier to buff goats&co which indirectly benefits them that way as well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/page/39/#findComment-4995230 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skerr Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 I was thinking of some archonites comverted with different weapons for some 1000 Sons cultists. At 40 points i think a cheap way of filling in 6 troop choices after a couple rubrics and goats. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/page/39/#findComment-4995297 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladin777 Posted January 28, 2018 Share Posted January 28, 2018 I’ve already benefitted from the ability to warptime a freshly deep struck unit of SOT’s while my sorcerer was buried in a large pile of rubric marines. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/page/39/#findComment-4995390 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven1 Posted January 28, 2018 Author Share Posted January 28, 2018 I was thinking of some archonites comverted with different weapons for some 1000 Sons cultists. At 40 points i think a cheap way of filling in 6 troop choices after a couple rubrics and goats. I'm racking my brain around a brigade. I'm going to need more Tzaangor Shaman and some cultists as they are even cheaper than Tzaangors. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/page/39/#findComment-4995394 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zodd1888 Posted January 28, 2018 Share Posted January 28, 2018 I think Battalion detatchment plus double Outrider for NA, Europe could go with Vanguard triple Mutalith so they could avoid the duplicate detatchment rules. I feel like you could get good teeth out of that. Edit: If the points are correct from earlier in the thread on Skyfires at 17/model and Terminator Sorcerers costing 130 an Outrider detatchment comes in at a reasonable 253. That's pretty inexpensive, and useful for any TS army. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/page/39/#findComment-4995419 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archaeinox Posted January 28, 2018 Share Posted January 28, 2018 Is that a termi with familiar? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/page/39/#findComment-4995640 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zodd1888 Posted January 28, 2018 Share Posted January 28, 2018 Is that a termi with familiar? I don't know cost on familiar yet, can't see it being too expensive. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/page/39/#findComment-4995643 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonoftherubric21 Posted January 28, 2018 Share Posted January 28, 2018 Interested in hearing some thoughts regarding this enlightened idea..... Now the obvious choice is of course Bows, as statistically they overall seem pretty great both in damage potential (even for D1) and utility, and I will definitely make use of them. However my thought was regarding spears, 1 point cheaper per model isnt really a big deal, however considering the daemon key word, the flying ability, how fast they move combined with sorcerers and a shaman....I would imagine that we could make a pretty effective Melee module flying around the map. Take a group of between 6 and 12 enlightened all with spears, Take an Exalted Sorcerer with Seers Bane and the +1 invul warlord trait, take a Tzaangor shaman nearby for bonus to hit rolls without needing to roll for a spell, and the exalted of course provides re-rolls thanks to his lovely new aura. Of course the enlightened are relatively fragile statistically being at T4, 2 wounds, and 5++ save, so tossing 1-2 buffs on them (see; Weaver and Glamour) would be a requirement. But this grouping has potential to cause some real havoc on flanks, fly up a flank, deny one side of the table completely to anything that gets in the way, and due to having D2 weapons could feasibly destroy a vehicle or assassinate a character relatively easily. Each of the Tzaangors swings twice (3 for Aviarch) with a STR 5 -1 ap weapon that is D2 on charge. Meaning the charge turn they would be super accurate and deal decent damage, If they come up against truly "hard" targets (elite squads, powerful tanks) those units will have Ld 9 and the exalted goes in with them and goes to town. This unit would almost always be the one GETTING the charge given easy access to Warp Time, sling-shoting them across the map to support other sections of the army or harrass another vehicle/character would also be very easy to do. I suppose the best part regarding that is the *relatively* cheap cost PPM of the enlightened are *relatively* low and their damage potential is very good. High Volume weaponry would be a large concern for the enlightened so making a point of a defensive buff on them would be important. Thoughts? Comments? Criticisms? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/page/39/#findComment-4995709 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khalan Posted January 28, 2018 Share Posted January 28, 2018 I think the problem is, 2-3 HB or a few autocannons just ruins your day in 1 turn. Also Ap 1 means anything with Armour they bounce off. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/page/39/#findComment-4995715 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven1 Posted January 28, 2018 Author Share Posted January 28, 2018 I thought the same thing and set about to magnetize them. Well i spent more time than i would like to admit trying to magnetize the arms. The back has specific chest and the bow chest is different than the axe chest. It didn't work well, the chests never wanted to stay in. If given a choice i think the bows are the better option, but with fly and charging over and over again to get that D2 is certainly tantalizing. Weaver, glitter, and prescience is also a pretty hard set passing all those psychic tests in each phase so to fail a charge or get left out in the open would be devastating. I think range is just the better way to go. I'm mean its certainly not as bad a GW telling us a good tactic is using a strategem to teleport some odd 330 points of Rubrics with warpflamers plus a sorcerer with access to warptime and then hoping to get warptime off just so the unit is effective as opposed to summoning a large size squad of flamers which requires neither that amount of points, psychic powers, or strategems and whose range is 12" and buffable by auras and psychic powers. You could seriously bring Magnus instead of that one-trick pony. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/page/39/#findComment-4995718 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arachnofiend Posted January 28, 2018 Share Posted January 28, 2018 I've had enough poor experiences trying to get melee units that don't have a guaranteed turn one delivery system to work that I can't see myself using the spears. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/page/39/#findComment-4995719 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven1 Posted January 28, 2018 Author Share Posted January 28, 2018 Personally im eyeing a supereme detachment with mutalith and a detachment of Night Lords and/or Forgeworld for butcher cannons with treason of tzeentch. You can reasonably reduce leadership of a ld9 character to 4 and I think wreck some pretty serious havoc. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/page/39/#findComment-4995732 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted January 28, 2018 Share Posted January 28, 2018 I honestly don't think you can do much wrong with Enlightened. They have a Primaris staline with worse save but superior mobility and Daemon keyword for one less point than Intercessors. Then taking the bow makes them a point more expensive but they also get superior shooting. Plus they have their own auto-wound on 6s special rule which shoudl easily justify the +1p on its own lol Not sure how expensive the spear was but I think it was 2ppm as well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/page/39/#findComment-4995736 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonoftherubric21 Posted January 28, 2018 Share Posted January 28, 2018 Spears are 16 ppm, bows are 17 ppm. I will proxy it (I have 6 bow enlightened currently) and see what I can come up with. Though I do agree in 8th Melee is the "weaker" option generally speaking. In the case of Glamour and Weaver, it would cast both, one or the other is bound to go off. (usually) lol. It was just a thought ill play around with, proxying that will be easy since I already have the bows. Prescience isnt actually required at all, they have a natural 3+ to hit and the Shaman that (in this case) be around them would give a +1 to hit aura so a 2+ is easy to come by. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/page/39/#findComment-4995748 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zodd1888 Posted January 28, 2018 Share Posted January 28, 2018 Enlightened seem to be really good when combined with Diabolic Strength, Prescience, and Mutalith buff. You can do enough damage to wipe Mortarion, especially if you proc Cycle of Slaughter, with auto-wound on 4+, -2 Rend, 2 damage. 9 Enlightened with 27 attacks, making it 54 with Cycle, 27 auto-wound at 2 damage. Pretty potent. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/page/39/#findComment-4995752 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonoftherubric21 Posted January 28, 2018 Share Posted January 28, 2018 Enlightened seem to be really good when combined with Diabolic Strength, Prescience, and Mutalith buff. You can do enough damage to wipe Mortarion, especially if you proc Cycle of Slaughter, with auto-wound on 4+, -2 Rend, 2 damage. 9 Enlightened with 27 attacks, making it 54 with Cycle, 27 auto-wound at 2 damage. Pretty potent. funny enough I *totally* forgot about Cycle of Slaughter in that above bit. Huh. Its a thought, For the unit to be effective they might have to be big though, at least 8 or 9 models, 6 may not be enough in my case. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/page/39/#findComment-4995754 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted January 28, 2018 Share Posted January 28, 2018 Spears are 16 ppm, bows are 17 ppm. I will proxy it (I have 6 bow enlightened currently) and see what I can come up with. Though I do agree in 8th Melee is the "weaker" option generally speaking. In the case of Glamour and Weaver, it would cast both, one or the other is bound to go off. (usually) lol. It was just a thought ill play around with, proxying that will be easy since I already have the bows. Prescience isnt actually required at all, they have a natural 3+ to hit and the Shaman that (in this case) be around them would give a +1 to hit aura so a 2+ is easy to come by. +2p for the Disc which they have to take according to the earlier posts. So it's 18ppm and 19ppm respectively. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/page/39/#findComment-4995769 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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