Devastation of Baal - Guy Haley - Discussion/Spoilers

[Frater Cornelius]

Your not wrong Frater Cornelius, I like both the Space wolves and Seth but your description of them as elitist, arrogant and immature is very accurate. They have other virtues but those are definitely 3 of their flaws

It is perfectly okay to like them for their human flaws. All I am saying is that I dislike it and tend to disassociate myself from those traits. To each his own, I say ;)

[Kasper_Hawser]

Your not wrong Frater Cornelius, I like both the Space wolves and Seth but your description of them as elitist, arrogant and immature is very accurate. They have other virtues but those are definitely 3 of their flaws

 

As a Space Wolf player and reader of SW lore, I would like to agree to disagree with you on them being immature and elitist. Arrogant I will immediately give you that although to be fair, that's a flaw of most Space Marines, even the Salamanders are not immune, whether to fellow Space Marines or other non-transhuman forces.

 

Depends on your definition of immature. If you mean constantly deriding other Space Marine chapters or assuming you are the best of all Space Marine chapters just because you are a son of Russ/Sanguinus, I'm not sure SW fit the bill. Dark Angels aside, the Wolves generally behave civilly and don't instantly try to assume command when they come. Before the fall of Cadia, Logan Grimnar was apparently voted as the main representative, if not leader, of the Adeptus Astartes forces. And before the Wrath of Magnus, the Space Wolf had a very stable and well protected territory with great populations indebted to the Wolves for their protection.

 

Which of course sadly went up in smoke when Magnus came but then again, I honestly wasn't expecting the Wolves to come out alive at all after that incident. Afterwhich the Space Wolves became a lot more grimdarker.

 

Sigh, Grimnar even had to exterminatus one of the Wolves own planets to staunch the tide of Nurgle. Which happened just as planned and summoned Magnus forward.

 

Only consolation prize i got from reading Wrath of Magnus was Khorne trolling Tzeetch. Magnus was immune to every artifact made by the Imperium and sorcery. Too bad Grimnar's axe was originally a Khorne weapon.

 

 

Anyway, if they were immature and arrogant before, they certainly aren't anymore after the Warth of Magnus. Two Great Companies willingly sacrificed themselves at the Fall of Cadia. No elitist or arrogant bastards would do that for "mere mortals".

 

On the subject of Seth, I think he'll come around eventually. Just need a few more battles along the Primaris, which will also depend on the Primaris quickly adopting the Blood Angel traditions and honour, the lack of black rage/thirst notwithstanding.

[Frater Cornelius]

@ Kasper_Hawser - I don't want to make this a SW discussion. I simply want to say that this statement is direct more towards SW as a concept. This modern view of Vikings being lawless badasses, that rebellion and disregard for authority is cool, that beards and drinking is the sign of manliness and all these other tropes. I like the old wise Wolves like Ulrik and Grimnar. I simply dislike the viking looks :P But the way they were portrayed as an antithesis to the Codex gets my knickers in a twist. Rebellious and antiauthoritarian behaviour is not cool. It is immature.

[Jolemai]

Indeed, steer this back towards Blood Angels please.

[pandion40]

I’ll concentrate on Seth, I genuinely like him as a character. I never liked the Flesh Tearers they’re just not my cup of tea, I like contrast of the angelic and vampiric influences and how they combine with the Space marine archetype to produce the Blood Angels. The Flesh Tearers don’t have that balance. I think Seth brings some much needed depth to the chapter, through his actions of restraining and directing the flaws as well as isolating his chapter from most other imperial forces, he brings hope that the chapter can die with a clean name as respected loyalist chapter.

 

I think that’s been his only goal, to clean his chapters name and die well as he sees the end of his chapter as inevitable. The strength of will needed to drag them back from the precipice like he has is immense. But with all that he’s still a Flesh Tearer, and shares their flaws and strengths, he is arrogant and elitist but can control it and put it aside for the good of the imperium and the sons of Sanguinious as a whole. The immature accusation is a little more eye of the beholder I think.

[Ishagu]

Seth is like some of the fools who sit amongst the High Lords of Terra. So stuck in his ways, in his views and beliefs that he can't see the big picture. One of the High Lords literally believed that the Imperium - at the time besieged by Chaos and Xenos on all sides, having lost contact with half of the Galaxy, Cadia in ruins and Khorne Daemons at the gates of the Imperial Palace - was at the strongest it's ever been. Fools like this need to be removed from their positions.

 

Seth is the Master of a small chapter that was dying because they embraced the very things he claims gives them strength. With ideas like his it would be best if Dante or Guilliman strip him of all command. He can die with the Death Company that he so wishes he was a part of.

Edited November 22, 2017 by Ishagu

[Palwatch]

Im interviewing Haley for a site I write for. Whats the policy on posting links?

Interview is about DoB

[Charlo]

Ishagu's here to start a flame war, it seems 

 

Im interviewing Haley for a site I write for. Whats the policy on posting links?

 

Never seen anything against it!

[Blindhamster]

Seth is like some of the fools who sit amongst the High Lords of Terra. So stuck in his ways, in his views and beliefs that he can't see the big picture. One of the High Lords literally believed that the Imperium - at the time besieged by Chaos and Xenos on all sides, having lost contact with half of the Galaxy, Cadia in ruins and Khorne Daemons at the gates of the Imperial Palace - was at the strongest it's ever been. Fools like this need to be removed from their positions.

 

Seth is the Master of a small chapter that was dying because they embraced the very things he claims gives them strength. With ideas like him, Dante or Guilliman should strip him of all command. He can die with the Death Company he so wishes he was a part of.

 

Not entirely fair.

 

Seth is supposed to have curbed the excess, he's forcing the tearers to be more noble and a bit more restrained, whilst also not denying the thirst. There's a good scene between him and a ranking knight of blood that really highlights their differences.

 

He also cannot help how strong the call of the curse is for the flesh tearers (or himself) but he resists through force of will, drawing strength without giving in. Dante himself notes that he doesn't think he could do what Seth has, and that he considers Seth a friend and a man of noble heart.

 

Seth is arrogant and flawed, but similar to Amit which makes sense. He also genuinely believes in Dante, and is disappointed when he realises Dante himself has begun to drink blood again.

 

As others have said, Amit also personifies many players views, that the thirst is what makes the blood angels and their successors.

[Frater Cornelius]

Ishagu's here to start a flame war, it seems 

 

Im interviewing Haley for a site I write for. Whats the policy on posting links?

 

Never seen anything against it!

 

Speaking about being stuck in one's ways :P

 

Time will show if Seth comes around. If immature strikes it the wrong way, how about 'impulsive'? That ought to describe him better. More prone to outbursts and heeding his emotions as opposed to reason.

[Jolemai]

No one will be starting or participating in a flame war. By all means disagree with the point(s) raised but bear this in mind - either debate courteously with each other within the remit of the B&C rules or you don't post. Simple. Edited November 22, 2017 by Jolemai

[Jarl Caldersson]

I view it as this, the Emperor have Sanguinius's the Red Thirst for a reason. We do not know that reason but it has purpose. By removing it, you are removing a gift and a curse. I do not think the Emperor would make such a serious flaw, especially when he made others before with less flaws.

 

As for narrative, it gives Sanguinius and the BA much deeper personality. Without it you are the perfect monk-artist-poet-warrior. The BA are so well rounded that they are closest to perfection that it would be nauseating. By having such a deep flaw gives them something to both fear in themselves and fear others seeing. They wish to have that perfection that they always hoped to reach, but are damned to live on the edge always ready to drink. They work hard to cover this flaw in many ways. Some drink blood to slake their thirst, other temper it and control it, while other let it happen and then contain it. Either way it gives the BA something they can't achieve which is perfection. Sure people may say "we are better without it" and it is true. What then? You reach perfection, you are the Mary Sue, what character development do you gain. You no longer have a wealth of personalities ranging from Seth to Dante, as there is less controversy within the chapters.

 

 

Also do we know for sure these are BA geneseed? I wonder if we have some chaos magic going on and somehow BA got some Angron geneseed or something.

[Brother Crimson]

Although we might agree or disagree with Dante or Seth, keep in mind strong characters helps to make a good story. The Different viewpoints they express will probably be used in next novels. What if Seth later realises that the primaris marines can be trained as ruthless melee warrior as efficiently without the curse ? What if the flesh tearers embrace the flaw and become excommunicated ? What if Dante is wrong and loses authority over his chapter ? 

[Frater Cornelius]

I view it as this, the Emperor have Sanguinius's the Red Thirst for a reason. We do not know that reason but it has purpose. By removing it, you are removing a gift and a curse. I do not think the Emperor would make such a serious flaw, especially when he made others before with less flaws.

 

As for narrative, it gives Sanguinius and the BA much deeper personality. Without it you are the perfect monk-artist-poet-warrior. The BA are so well rounded that they are closest to perfection that it would be nauseating. By having such a deep flaw gives them something to both fear in themselves and fear others seeing. They wish to have that perfection that they always hoped to reach, but are damned to live on the edge always ready to drink. They work hard to cover this flaw in many ways. Some drink blood to slake their thirst, other temper it and control it, while other let it happen and then contain it. Either way it gives the BA something they can't achieve which is perfection. Sure people may say "we are better without it" and it is true. What then? You reach perfection, you are the Mary Sue, what character development do you gain. You no longer have a wealth of personalities ranging from Seth to Dante, as there is less controversy within the chapters.

 

 

Also do we know for sure these are BA geneseed? I wonder if we have some chaos magic going on and somehow BA got some Angron geneseed or something.

 

Humans are flawed enough, why artificially enforce a flaw? I feel this marginalizes them. It still shows their perfection, because an artificial flaw is external, much like a burden laid on them. What makes humans flawed is how we fight ourselves and out desires that should not be. Maybe this is why I never really cared much for the BA flaw and focused my liking on Saguinius and his sacrifice.

[deathspectersgt7]

Man that last sentence makes me want to watch General Hospital . My book is in the post so acouple more days 

[Blindhamster]

 

Also do we know for sure these are BA geneseed? I wonder if we have some chaos magic going on and somehow BA got some Angron geneseed or something.

 

I've not finished the book yet so cannot say for sure, but I'm pretty confident the priests would be testing the Geneseed.

 

also, of all the legions/chapters the BA are noted for the gene seed drastically remaking every astartes to look like Sanguinius, whilst the exact degree may vary, every single brother looks like him and are supposedly similar enough in appearance to be easily mistakable for genuine brothers.

 

 

so what I mean to say is, "nah" that won't be the case.

 

I do fully expect to see the flaw resurface at some point in some way, probably when GW have models ready for it.

Edited November 22, 2017 by Blindhamster

[TheHarrower]

Just finished. The book was really good. Had some pretty stirring moments in there with Dante that got me all pumped up. He has an amazing movie speech at the end too and a great duel with a Swarm Lord. I'm not going to spoiler tag this as the whole thread is rife with spoilers. Here are the important bits:

• The Sanguinor is described as the Herald of Sanguinius. Don't think I've seen that before. I think they are playing the long game and setting up the return of Sanguinius. Sanguinus is actually in the book. It's ambiguous whether or not it's a vision, but I didn't take it as one. Sanguinus and The Sanguinor are in one scene together so I don't think they are the same person. Some people will hate this. I'm all for it. I want that sweet winged model.
• The Legion of the Damned make an appearance at the end. Nice to see them back.
• Lemartes isn't in it at all. I know he was mentioned, but they didn't say if he lived or not. Not sure where he was. Cadia? I have the actual book so I can search his name easily. Can someone do a search on him in the digital copy?
• High Command of the Blood Angels is all mini marines. They say when they die out, they will be replaced by Primaris Marines. So wherever that rumor came from that regular marines can become primaris marines seems like BS.
• 300 mini marines left. All special characters make it through with the big question mark on Lemartes.
• Mephiston uses Blood Lance and Wings of Sanguinius. Maybe we get those powers back? He is a total bad ass. Jumps out of a Thunderhawk at one point and says he'll be right back. All of the non-Blood Angels marines are like wth? The Blood Angels are like yeah, he'll be back. Was a cool moment.
• The interaction between RG and Dante was great. RG orders Dante never to kneel before him. He names Dante the Warden of Imperium Nihilus and gives him command of all Imperial forces north of the Great Rift.
• The Tower of Amareo is empty. All the "Blood Wulfen" are dead thankfully. They were described as red-skinned, 12 foot tall with yellow claws and fangs and burning eyes. Vampires essentially. I hope we never models for them on the table top. The Knights of Blood are basically deformed like them. It's why they don't remove their helmets.
• Tower is/was guarded by 50 Amarean Guard. The Custodian of the Damned watches over them. He's described as a Space Marine champion in black armor with a sword blazing with energy.
• No Primaris Marines have felt the thirst in 70+ years. Corbulo is surprised by this. I hope it comes back as this is the one fluff bit I don't like.
• Heraldry for Primaris Marines is the same except that they have a gray chevron on one pauldron.
• All of the relics from our 7th Edition Codex make an appearance.
• Seth is really cool. Doesn't trust RG and doesn't like the Primaris Marines. Says they aren't the same without the thirst and the rage. I agree.
• All of the Sanguinary Guard bit the dust except for Caraeus. He is going to be named Exalted Herald of Sanguinius and new guard would be selected.
• Genesis Machines are working and installed on Baal. Dante can start making Primaris marines in a week. They will still be drawn from Baal. RG orders Dante to help the people of the planet as well. He doesn't want them living in squalor anymore.

That's all the important stuff. Anyone has any questions, let me know. Definitely a great read though.

Edited November 22, 2017 by TheHarrower

[Rafen IX]

Just finished. The book was really good. Had some pretty stirring moments in there with Dante that got me all pumped up. He has an amazing movie speech at the end too and a great duel with a Swarm Lord. I'm not going to spoiler tag this as the whole thread is rife with spoilers. Here are the important bits:

 

• The Sanguinor is described as the Herald of Sanguinius. Don't think I've seen that before. I think they are playing the long game and setting up the return of Sanguinius. Sanguinus is actually in the book. It's ambiguous whether or not it's a vision, but I didn't take it as one. Sanguinus and The Sanguinor are in one scene together so I don't think they are the same person. Some people will hate this. I'm all for it. I want that sweet winged model.
• The Legion of the Damned make an appearance at the end. Nice to see them back.
• Lemartes isn't in it at all. I know he was mentioned, but they didn't say if he lived or not. Not sure where he was. Cadia? I have the actual book so I can search his name easily. Can someone do a search on him in the digital copy?
• High Command of the Blood Angels is all mini marines. They say when they die out, they will be replaced by Primaris Marines. So wherever that rumor came from that regular marines can become primaris marines seems like BS.
• 300 mini marines left. All special characters make it through with the big question mark on Lemartes.
• Mephiston uses Blood Lance and Wings of Sanguinius. Maybe we get those powers back? He is a total bad ass. Jumps out of a Thunderhawk at one point and says he'll be right back. All of the non-Blood Angels marines are like wth? The Blood Angels are like yeah, he'll be back. Was a cool moment.
• The interaction between RG and Dante was great. RG orders Dante never to kneel before him. He names Dante the Warden of Imperium Nihilus and gives him command of all Imperial forces north of the Great Rift.
• The Tower of Amareo is empty. All the "Blood Wulfen" are dead thankfully. They were described as red-skinned, 12 foot tall with yellow claws and fangs and burning eyes. Vampires essentially. I hope we never models for them on the table top. The Knights of Blood are basically deformed like them. It's why they don't remove their helmets.
• Tower is/was guarded by 50 Amarean Guard. The Custodian of the Damned watches over them. He's described as a Space Marine champion in black armor with a sword blazing with energy.
• No Primaris Marines have felt the thirst in 70+ years. Corbulo is surprised by this. I hope it comes back as this is the one fluff bit I don't like.
• Heraldry for Primaris Marines is the same except that they have a gray chevron on one pauldron.
• All of the relics from our 7th Edition Codex make an appearance.
• Seth is really cool. Doesn't trust RG and doesn't like the Primaris Marines. Says they aren't the same without the thirst and the rage. I agree.
• All of the Sanguinary Guard bit the dust except for Caraeus. He is going to be named Exalted Herald of Sanguinius and new guard would be selected.
• Genesis Machines are working and installed on Baal. Dante can start making Primaris marines in a week. They will still be drawn from Baal. RG orders Dante to help the people of the planet as well. He doesn't want them living in squalor anymore.

That's all the important stuff. Anyone has any questions, let me know. Definitely a great read though.

That blazing sword could be the BA relic from HH

Also that heraldry of the grey chevron was what all the primaris bore until they get amalgamated into chapters.

[Pendent]

I thought it was pretty funny when they very carefully listed all of our relics from the 7th ed codex, really.

[Blindhamster]

Grey chevron is just whilst they are unremembered sons

[Frater Cornelius]

Caraeus is then basically Azkaellon 2.0. That's cool. Personally, I hope the Sanguinor becomes imbued with the spirit of Sanguinius and they become one.

 

As for the Primaris, GW better get their game up and produce some unique BA minis, including Primaris Sanguinary Guard, lest I will personally lead an invasion to Nottingham and slap the designers and executives with the Codex.

[Brother Crimson]

Anyone find it amusing that the author of the Codex names Dante as a Warden and commander of tens of thousands of men.

 

Certainly not a blood angel legion...

Edited November 22, 2017 by Brother Crimson

[TheRealMcCagh]

Just finished. The book was really good. Had some pretty stirring moments in there with Dante that got me all pumped up. He has an amazing movie speech at the end too and a great duel with a Swarm Lord. I'm not going to spoiler tag this as the whole thread is rife with spoilers. Here are the important bits:

• The Sanguinor is described as the Herald of Sanguinius. Don't think I've seen that before. I think they are playing the long game and setting up the return of Sanguinius. Sanguinus is actually in the book. It's ambiguous whether or not it's a vision, but I didn't take it as one. Sanguinus and The Sanguinor are in one scene together so I don't think they are the same person. Some people will hate this. I'm all for it. I want that sweet winged model.
• The Legion of the Damned make an appearance at the end. Nice to see them back.
• Lemartes isn't in it at all. I know he was mentioned, but they didn't say if he lived or not. Not sure where he was. Cadia? I have the actual book so I can search his name easily. Can someone do a search on him in the digital copy?
• High Command of the Blood Angels is all mini marines. They say when they die out, they will be replaced by Primaris Marines. So wherever that rumor came from that regular marines can become primaris marines seems like BS.
• 300 mini marines left. All special characters make it through with the big question mark on Lemartes.
• Mephiston uses Blood Lance and Wings of Sanguinius. Maybe we get those powers back? He is a total bad ass. Jumps out of a Thunderhawk at one point and says he'll be right back. All of the non-Blood Angels marines are like wth? The Blood Angels are like yeah, he'll be back. Was a cool moment.
• The interaction between RG and Dante was great. RG orders Dante never to kneel before him. He names Dante the Warden of Imperium Nihilus and gives him command of all Imperial forces north of the Great Rift.
• The Tower of Amareo is empty. All the "Blood Wulfen" are dead thankfully. They were described as red-skinned, 12 foot tall with yellow claws and fangs and burning eyes. Vampires essentially. I hope we never models for them on the table top. The Knights of Blood are basically deformed like them. It's why they don't remove their helmets.
• Tower is/was guarded by 50 Amarean Guard. The Custodian of the Damned watches over them. He's described as a Space Marine champion in black armor with a sword blazing with energy.
• No Primaris Marines have felt the thirst in 70+ years. Corbulo is surprised by this. I hope it comes back as this is the one fluff bit I don't like.
• Heraldry for Primaris Marines is the same except that they have a gray chevron on one pauldron.
• All of the relics from our 7th Edition Codex make an appearance.
• Seth is really cool. Doesn't trust RG and doesn't like the Primaris Marines. Says they aren't the same without the thirst and the rage. I agree.
• All of the Sanguinary Guard bit the dust except for Caraeus. He is going to be named Exalted Herald of Sanguinius and new guard would be selected.
• Genesis Machines are working and installed on Baal. Dante can start making Primaris marines in a week. They will still be drawn from Baal. RG orders Dante to help the people of the planet as well. He doesn't want them living in squalor anymore.

That's all the important stuff. Anyone has any questions, let me know. Definitely a great read though.

 

 

Lemartes is on Diamor with the 1,2, 5, and 7 BA companies. The mention of him is only Dante wondering what Lemartes could do if given charge of all the DC gather on Baal. That scene with Mephiston was pretty awesome. The Knights of Blood had a pretty cool intro, as did the Angel's Vermillion. It turns out the Knights of Blood are descended directly from the Blood Angels, the current Chapter Master (forgot his name) mentions that all their original Captains and Chapter Master were originally Blood Angels.

 

Guess that gives my idea for a successor whose CM was a BA some decent backing lore wise

[Sete]

"Custodian of the Damned watches over them. He's described as a Space Marine champion in black armor with a sword blazing with energy."

 

So the BA borrowed an Emperors Champion?

Edited November 22, 2017 by Sete

[brother_b]

"Custodian of the Damned watches over them. He's described as a Space Marine champion in black armor with a sword blazing with energy."

 

So the BA borrowed an Emperors Champion?

Other way around my brother. You've had a BA on loan for the last few centuries.

 

;)