Devastation of Baal - Guy Haley - Discussion/Spoilers

[Brother Crimson]

Seth is a very cool character, very pragmatic and "lets get done" attitude not caring much about what others think of him. He might be ruthless and agressive but he is not a brainless berzerker.

 

His reserves towards the new primaris is that the emperor made each legion for a different purpose and that they should embrace their struggle rather than try to eradicate it. 

Edited November 21, 2017 by Brother Crimson

[ServoBadger]

To my mind, Seth has forgotten that it took 10,000 years for the Blood Angels and successors flaws to become as pronounced as they are now. We know from the Heresy novels that in the time of Sanguinius just one marine falling to the thirst in a legion of 120,000 or so was worthy of the Primarch's personal attention.

 

The Primaris marines don't have 10,000 years of accumulated genetic degradation. I'm not sure I believe they're free of it, but the clock might have been reset. The Codex will make interesting reading I think.

[Blindhamster]

 

 

You're missing the point.

 

He is as disdainful of most of the blood angel successors (implied also the blood angels themselves) considering them weak and unworthy of the blood as they don't embrace the flaw.

 

I.e. his viewpoint on the primaris make far more sense because they are basically even worse than the current situation, rather than not embracing the flaw, they simply do not have it (yet)

Is there a novel/fluff source for that or your extrapolation from his spoiled comments in DoB?

 

I haven't read even a fraction of the Black Library material because there's simply too much of it for me to keep pace with, monetarily and time-wise.

 

From the limited stuff I have read or read summaries of on wiki/lexicanum I would expect Seth to be disdainful of the absence of the Thirst rather than not embracing it. He's come across as recognising that embracing is necessary for his lot, but wouldn't expect the same of all Sanguinius' Sons.

It's how he views them in his first scene in devastation of Baal whilst viewing the arrayed forces beyond the arx angelicum

 

 

Seth looked out at the host dismissively. Where some might see unbridled Imperial might, he saw weakness . All the warriors suffered from the flaw like his own Chapter did, yet in the main they denied what they were. They were not worthy to carry the blood of Sanguinius in their veins.

Edited November 21, 2017 by Blindhamster

[Damon Nightman]

Seth is such a boss...

[Captain_Krash]

Seth is the only one who really "Gets it"

 

Krash

[Blindhamster]

I honestly liked Seth less after that scene. Lol. Screw him, how dare he belittle my beloved blood angels.

[Damon Nightman]

I don't agree with him per se, I just think he's got some balls...

 

Also, I'm sure plenty of other successors don't think too highly of the Flesh Tearers.

[Blindhamster]

He notes that most dont trust the flesh tearers and even thinks they legitimately shouldn't lol

[sockwithaticket]

I honestly liked Seth less after that scene. Lol. Screw him, how dare he belittle my beloved blood angels.

 

 

I don't agree with him per se, I just think he's got some balls...

 

Also, I'm sure plenty of other successors don't think too highly of the Flesh Tearers.

Both of these things. Thanks for providing the context, blindhamster.

 

I'm a little surprised to see he's been given that kind of attitude since he seems to have been attempting to moderate the FTs (relatively speaking), perhaps showing recognition that allowing the flaw to go unchecked is detrimental to the fighting strength and therefore efficacy of the chapter. 

[Panzer]

I like Seth as character....that doesn't mean he has a good personality tho. I can like bad people as long as they are fictional and well written. :D

[TheRealMcCagh]

I wasn't too big a fan of that scene either, he comes across a little elitist. But then I remember he brought his Flesh Tearers in their entirety even before the call to aid Baal. Dude has been by Dante's side since Cryptus, and sometimes you need the psycho little brother to remind you of the way of things. I'd take Seth over that Captain Erwin any day

[sockwithaticket]

I honestly liked Seth less after that scene. Lol. Screw him, how dare he belittle my beloved blood angels.

As an aside if he thinks that of his blood brothers I'd love to know his thoughts on others not of the BA lineage! Who wants a Seth's journal release where he writes catty put downs about codex chapters of note?

[Blindhamster]

I wasn't too big a fan of that scene either, he comes across a little elitist. But then I remember he brought his Flesh Tearers in their entirety even before the call to aid Baal. Dude has been by Dante's side since Cryptus, and sometimes you need the psycho little brother to remind you of the way of things. I'd take Seth over that Captain Erwin any day

Man I loathed captain Erwin almost instantly. His sergeant was awesome though.

 

I have to say, the scene after the one I quoted with Seth in it is better, his relationship with Dante is interesting.

 

 

P.s. for anyone that's read it, does Dante give you an old man logan vibe? Alive too long, worn out but still a badass?

Edited November 21, 2017 by Blindhamster

[Kasper_Hawser]

Seth has always been a naysayer and an insightful one, he was a total jerk towards the whole Deus Sanguinus thing on Baal too before pledging his Flesh Tearers to helping Dante.

 

"He who sheds his blood with me will be my battle brother eternal".

 

Common words from a Space Marine, but really impactful when he says it despite having less than half a chapter left. (pre-devastation of Baal, can't imagine how many are left now).

 

Unless he folds the Flesh Tearers back to the Blood Angels though, it looks like he'll have to accept the Primaris to replenish the chapter. While I think he would rather the Flesh Tearers die out instead of accepting the Primaris, in the end, he is a dutiful Space Marine and I can see him swallowing his distaste for a chance to kill chaos again.

[tkni]

Ultimately, I don't think Guilliman actually gives him a rest based on what happens, he actually tells Dante to strive even harder, giving him more responsibility than we've seen any other marine get so far (He's I suppose a little like one of the tetrarchs in ultramar, but rather than governing a fifth of the worlds there, he is the Imperial commander of the way into the Imperium and all of the Northern Imperium), on top of also being told to make Baal and its moons into a beacon of hope like Ultramar effectively. It's a HUGE order he's been given, which speaks volumes for how impressed Guilliman is with him I guess.

 

I've re-read the end a few times now, and I'm actually quite looking forward to what Dante's been landed with. As you say, a little bit like a tetrarch, but with 30,000+ marines directly under him, a large part of (with most of the fun bits) of the imperium to deal with, another 25+ chapter homeworlds (per the C:SM map) he's now 'technically' in charge of, new orbitals and shipyards and a brief to bring Baal up to being a top-tier system. Just so long as we eventually get Primaris jump packs and MkX nipple armour...

 

If anyone's a bit mardy about him acquiescing to everyone's favourite spiritual liege, I think Guilliman has technically put him in charge of a whole bunch of UM successors, including the Novamarines, Aurora and Sons of Orar* chapters.

 

Hell, if we want to be generous, you could argue the Iron Hands have finally landed a named character...

 

 

*obvious Alpha Legion front

[pandion40]

 

Ultimately, I don't think Guilliman actually gives him a rest based on what happens, he actually tells Dante to strive even harder, giving him more responsibility than we've seen any other marine get so far (He's I suppose a little like one of the tetrarchs in ultramar, but rather than governing a fifth of the worlds there, he is the Imperial commander of the way into the Imperium and all of the Northern Imperium), on top of also being told to make Baal and its moons into a beacon of hope like Ultramar effectively. It's a HUGE order he's been given, which speaks volumes for how impressed Guilliman is with him I guess.

I've re-read the end a few times now, and I'm actually quite looking forward to what Dante's been landed with. As you say, a little bit like a tetrarch, but with 30,000+ marines directly under him, a large part of (with most of the fun bits) of the imperium to deal with, another 25+ chapter homeworlds (per the C:SM map) he's now 'technically' in charge of, new orbitals and shipyards and a brief to bring Baal up to being a top-tier system. Just so long as we eventually get Primaris jump packs and MkX nipple armour...

If anyone's a bit mardy about him acquiescing to everyone's favourite spiritual liege, I think Guilliman has technically put him in charge of a whole bunch of UM successors, including the Novamarines, Aurora and Sons of Orar* chapters.

Hell, if we want to be generous, you could argue the Iron Hands have finally landed a named character...

*obvious Alpha Legion front

Yea he’s is officially in charge of all SM and Guard forces in the Imperium Nihilius, maybe even navy. Though this being 40k some will not fall in line. I’d guess given how the average citizen views Dante though a surprising amount of the Imperium Nihilius will fall in line. I honestly can’t see anyone else who could command as much universal respect from all the imperial factions. It could be exciting times ahead for the BA. I also like that the man who implemented the rules that limited the power of the Space Marines just made a Space Marine one of the most powerful people in the imperium.

 

When I read that passage I keep looking for something I’m misreading, just keep thinking that can’t be right but it looks like it is.

[tkni]

It's gonna make for some great narrative imperial soup lists.

 

I hope Navy is covered (also: Titan legions) as both Ultima and Obscurus' fleet capitals (ie. base of operations for the entire segmentum) are north of the rift.

[Lord_Caerolion]

I imagine it would be. He's essentially the Warmaster of the Imperium Nihilus, just with a more Imperially-politically-correct title. Essentially, from what I can gather, he's in charge of all Imperial forces north of the Rift, until further notice. Guilliman and Terra on one side, Dante holding everything else together.

[Guest]

I'm really curious where the DA and SW sit about this. SW sit right in the middle of the rift according to the maps, meanwhile DA just kinda go wherever they want.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Hasn't the Rock been shown as having been towards the south end of the galaxy lately? The Dark Angels should be on the Terran side of the Rift.

[Crimson Ghost IX]

Back onto the Red Thirst / Black Rage / Seth / Primaris Marine thing ....

 

Red Thirst affects all Blood Angels, including Sanguinius. Yes, even back in the days of the HH.

It is not from genetic degredation over 10,000 years. It is in the original recipe from the Emperor, or added by chaos when they stole the baby perhaps...

 

I completely agree that Sanguinius wanted this cured and actively hid it so that IX would not be wiped out. He saw it as a curse on himself and his sons. Well documented in the books.

 

I believe the 1 in 10,000 marines going over to the red thirst so far they needed to be put down/put away is perhaps accurate prior to Signus Prime. But the Thirst was there prior, however very very few were lost to it completely (tower of Amereo style) prior to Signus Prime.

 

It was more apparent (stronger) after the events of Signus Prime it seems. At Signus Prime pretty much everybody fell so far to the thirst that Demons tempted Sanguinius with freeing his sons from it and returning them to themselves by sacrificing himself. Something he almost did... but Meros interceeded; saved his father and legion, and became the fallen Red Angel. The noble side of the marines reasserted itself again. Still suffering from the thirst but no longer beasts / slaves to it.

 

Some references in spoiler tags since kinda more recent material from HH Imperium Secundus & a quote from Ruinstorm:

 

Sanguinius is ashamed of HIMSELF for wanting to taste the blood of Azkaellon and struggled to control himself after Curze butchers the guardsmen during a fight during Imperium Secondus arc (Pharos?)

 

--------

 

Sanguinius addressing the entire BA fleet during Ruinstorm on fleetwide vox:

 

"My Sons " he said. "Legionaries of the 9th. Our war for Terra has already begun. The storm is our enemy, as surely as Horus is.  We know the nature of our foe much better than before.  We know the truth of the danger they present.  We are attacked on fronts far beyond the physical.   We have seen how they might destroy us; but they have failed, and we are the stronger for it. Your Armour is more than Ceramite. You know what is in your Blood. You know what you are capable of..."

 

He chose his words deliberately. Every Blood Angel would hear the two meanings of that sentance. He needed them too.

The flaw he had cursed them with had almost destroyed them.

 

"You know what you must guard against. Make that defense a sword, it's blade is the forged adamantium of our noble selves. Let us burn our way to Terra with the flames of our loyalty to the Emperor..."

---

Chaos cuts the comms...

 

---------------

 

Black Rage is a thing already affecting Sanguinius prior to his death in the HH series (Yes he is enraged by having visions of himself going to fight Horus and giving his life) - kinda makes sense I think.  This happens a couple times during ruinstorm actually.

 

I bet it is how he will beat the crap of the big daemons at Terra, but that bit is speculation...

 

He has been told by a daemon that his sons will be forever afflicted by the Black Rage if he does not change paths.

He is desperately seeking a pathway forward to avoid passing this fate on to his sons even if his own fate is set - (since they already suffer the Red Thirst - two different things). It is very important to him.

 

 

 

 

I said all that to try and clarify some stuffs and to say:

 

I agree the Red Thirst and the Black Rage being cured would be something all Blood Angels should celebrate and something Sanguinius would have loved to have seen happen...

 

I think Seth is right on the money wondering who these new guys are exactly. Something is DEFINATELY not cricket if they do not suffer the Black Rage as all Sons of Sanguinius do -or- Stave off the neverending Red Thirst as all Sons of Sanguinius do.

 

I think the Insanguination Theory laid out above is perhaps a valid way for GW to get around the Red Thirst.

I think the Primaris are perhaps not what they were told they are exactly is more likely... unless they start bugging out and eating people soonish I mean.

 

Black Rage especially wasn't cured by Gene Cleansing it's Psychic. Something is up and they cannot be more a brother than any other marines - which is perhaps enuf for loyal reinforcements. But for them to be actual Blood Angels tho... Where is the Death Imprint of our Primarch ?

 

I am guessing Dante is too beatdown and busy to be concerned at the moment, but this is gonna be a big bit of explaining to do / story to tell I am thinking going forward. 

Looking forward to reading this one.

Edited November 22, 2017 by Crimson Ghost IX

[Kasper_Hawser]

Back onto the Red Thirst / Black Rage / Seth / Primaris Marine thing ....

 

Red Thirst affects all Blood Angels, including Sanguinius. Yes, even back in the days of the HH.

It is not from genetic degredation over 10,000 years. It is in the original recipe from the Emperor, or added by chaos when they stole the baby perhaps...

 

I completely agree that Sanguinius wanted this cured and actively hid it so that IX would not be wiped out. He saw it as a curse on himself and his sons. Well documented in the books.

 

I believe the 1 in 10,000 marines going over to the red thirst so far they needed to be put down/put away is perhaps accurate prior to Signus Prime. But the Thirst was there prior, however very very few were lost to it completely (tower of Amereo style) prior to Signus Prime.

 

It was more apparent (stronger) after the events of Signus Prime it seems. At Signus Prime pretty much everybody fell so far to the thirst that Demons tempted Sanguinius with freeing his sons from it and returning them to themselves by sacrificing himself. Something he almost did... but Meros interceeded; saved his father and legion, and became the fallen Red Angel. The noble side of the marines reasserted itself again. Still suffering from the thirst but no longer beasts / slaves to it.

 

Some references in spoiler tags since kinda more recent material from HH Imperium Secundus & a quote from Ruinstorm:

 

Sanguinius is ashamed of HIMSELF for wanting to taste the blood of Azkaellon and struggled to control himself after Curze butchers the guardsmen during a fight during Imperium Secondus arc (Pharos?)

 

--------

 

Sanguinius addressing the entire BA fleet during Ruinstorm on fleetwide vox:

 

"My Sons " he said. "Legionaries of the 9th. Our war for Terra has already begun. The storm is our enemy, as surely as Horus is.  We know the nature of our foe much better than before.  We know the truth of the danger they present.  We are attacked on fronts far beyond the physical.   We have seen how they might destroy us; but they have failed, and we are the stronger for it. Your Armour is more than Ceramite. You know what is in your Blood. You know what you are capable of..."

 

He chose his words deliberately. Every Blood Angel would hear the two meanings of that sentance. He needed them too.

The flaw he had cursed them with had almost destroyed them.

 

"You know what you must guard against. Make that defense a sword, it's blade is the forged adamantium of our noble selves. Let us burn our way to Terra with the flames of our loyalty to the Emperor..."

---

Chaos cuts the comms...

 

---------------

 

Black Rage is a thing already affecting Sanguinius prior to his death in the HH series (Yes he is enraged by having visions of himself going to fight Horus and giving his life) - kinda makes sense I think.  This happens a couple times during ruinstorm actually.

 

I bet it is how he will beat the crap of the big daemons at Terra, but that bit is speculation...

 

He has been told by a daemon that his sons will be forever afflicted by the Black Rage if he does not change paths.

He is desperately seeking a pathway forward to avoid passing this fate on to his sons even if his own fate is set - (since they already suffer the Red Thirst - two different things). It is very important to him.

 

 

 

 

I said all that to try and clarify some stuffs and to say:

 

I agree the Red Thirst and the Black Rage being cured would be something all Blood Angels should celebrate and something Sanguinius would have loved to have seen happen...

 

I think Seth is right on the money wondering who these new guys are exactly. Something is DEFINATELY not cricket if they do not suffer the Black Rage as all Sons of Sanguinius do -or- Stave off the neverending Red Thirst as all Sons of Sanguinius do.

 

I think the Insanguination Theory is perhaps valid.

I think they are not what they were told they are exactly is more likely... unless they start bugging out and eaing people soonish I mean.

 

I am guessing Dante is too beat to to be concerned at the moment, but this is gonna be a big bit of explaiing to do / story to tell I am thinking going forward.

Looking forward to reading this one.

 

Me too. Let's hope Astaroth or Corbulo is around when one of the Primaris finally starts getting bloodthirsty and be able to explain it. I think something similar happened lately in another story when a chapter which had thought they were Ultramarine stock turned out to be Blood Angels stock when they started experiencing black rage in more frequency and Astaroth was around to explain it.

 

Anyway, I don't think we should be worried if the Black Rage/Thirst is cured or contained. We're only worried if it doesn't make sense fluffwise and GW just shoves the Primaris down our throats.

[Frater Cornelius]

Frankly, I want to punch Seth. Hard. With the Codex. The more I read about him, the more I dislike him for the same reason I dislike most Space Wolves: he is elitist, arrogant and immature.

 

He has this elitist attitude, thinking the Flaw makes him special. No it does not. When a curse your brothers try to get rid off becomes the main part of your identity, you never had an identity worth mentioning. It is like each son want to carry on a legacy of a father who died of cancer. One son dedicates his life to curing cancer and helping those suffering from it while the other tries to get cancer and dismisses everyone who tries to combat this disease, telling them that "they don't understand.".

 

Then there is this borderline hipster attitude. "You wouldn't understand.". Given how long Dante lived, I think he understands the nature of the curse better than all Flesh Tearers combined.

 

While I am with Dante, I do not see this as an end to the BA that were. No, I tell you want the correct way is, and if any BA authors are reading this, please take this into consideration:

The legacy of Sanguinius is not a flaw or a curse. That may have been part of what came with being a BA, but it is not what a Sanguinius truly left behind. What Sanguinius left was love for humanity, his brothers and sons. Sacrifice for the betterment of all. Unwavering courage and loyalty even in the face of certain death. According to Ruinstorm, Sanguinius knew that the Black Rage will happen if he died, but he did it anyway, because he knew he sons were strong enough take it. He never meant to embrace it and even he knew that all were better off without it.

Teach this to the new brothers of the Primaris. Teach them what Sanguinius did and what it meant. Teach them his true legacy and rejoice, for an ancient curse has come to an end. Teach them to be true sons of Sanguinius and not puppets of a curse borne from a tragedy. Teach them love and sacrifice. In my eyes, this will do.

Edited November 22, 2017 by Frater Cornelius

[Blindhamster]

Amen, brother

[pandion40]

Your not wrong Frater Cornelius, I like both the Space wolves and Seth but your description of them as elitist, arrogant and immature is very accurate. They have other virtues but those are definitely 3 of their flaws