[DW] Blackthorn and Swordhand: OOC Thread

[Commissar Molotov]

That's absolutely fine, don't worry. 

[Mazer Rackham]

Xin, Parry is a good call, since it stops the attack dead, Dodge vs DoS etc.

 

Looking forward to the edited posts, featuring "Sabaan, Despiser of Meatbags".

 

GM, can we make up a Deed or something Xin can have to get this realised? 

 

MR. 

[Steel Company]

Maybe after the mission perhaps MR, provided that CM agrees ofcourse.

[Commissar Molotov]

I really would appreciate some answers (with citations) regarding multiple attacks without the Two Weapon Wielder talent, as the rulebook seems to suggest it's not possible, but Steel was talking about it at a -20. I've not included it in Xin's post, but it is a little concern of mine. 

[Xin Ceithan]

I was wondering about that too when I looked it up in the rule book late last night.... but I chose to rely on those who have more experience with this mess of a ruleset :p

[Commissar Molotov]

Xin, you've managed to triumph over the object of your hatred - iron beats flesh! 

 

The Kill-Team is battered and bloody!

[Reyner]

Vaidan is going to need a vacation after this! There isn't going to be much of him left at this rate

[Mazer Rackham]

This is interesting:

 

Multiple Attacks: P241 Core:

"This allows active character to make more than one attack per turn provided he has Swift/Lightning Attack OR has a weapon in either hand...see Two Weapon Fighting"

 

Two-Weapon Fighting: P246 Core

"A character may attack with either hand..."

"His Off-hand is at -20 to hit..."

"If he has Two-Weapon Wielder, he may use the Multiple Attack Combat action...and attack with both hands at -20..."

"Except if he has Ambidextrous, when the penalty is halved to -10..."

 

So from the face of it, you both can and can't do it.  Two Weapon Wielder: P128 Core says you can attack with two weapons as a full action, using, presumably the Mulitple Attacks Action in Combat.

 

Basic Rules state that a Half-Action cannot repeat itself, so would a Multiple Attack action consisting of two standard attacks even be legal without Two-Weapon Wielder anyway?

But then doesn't that invalidate Mulitple Attacks as it states "OR a weapon in each hand"?

 

Steel, Slips...is there something else I'm missing?

 

No standard Space Marine gear/Talent overrules this...

 

I think we may have been homebrewing it as a solution for so long we've brought it with us.  GM?

 

MR

[Commissar Molotov]

It would be possible for Vaidan to perform a 'Disengage' action to move away from the Genestealer, allowing others in the turn sequence (well, Akkad...) a go... or perhaps Akkad to call for a regroup to reorganise Akkad, Sabaan and Vaidan into a more defensible position? 

[Steel Company]

CM, look under the Multi-attack action under combat actions, as well as ambidextrous and two weapon wielder talents.

 

As per the entries under both of those talents it says attacking with two weapons incurs a -20, reduced by +10 for each of those talents.

 

 

I'll dig up the exact wording later, I'm on mobile this morning, I should be able to get time on my laptop later today.

 

Edit:

 

MR, using multi attack is a full action, not a half action.

Edited November 24, 2018 by Steel Company

[Mazer Rackham]

It would be possible for Vaidan to perform a 'Disengage' action to move away from the Genestealer, allowing others in the turn sequence (well, Akkad...) a go... or perhaps Akkad to call for a regroup to reorganise Akkad, Sabaan and Vaidan into a more defensible position? 

 

Oh wait for it, you're going to love this chaps.

 

Watch for the edit.

 

Steel - see my post above.

 

MR.

 

EDIT: *Cracks Knuckles*

 

Reyner:

Full Action Disengage (you are allowed a Half-Move)

You break out of Combat in a direction you choose: Move 3 metres to the right and above of Genestealer A (map North is top)

Free Action Holster pistol, keep your CCW out.

Free Action Ready Weapon: Flamer.

Wait.

When Round 5 begins you declare your Reaction: Standard Attack Flamer (Point Blank) at Genestealer A.  The Flamer (I'm reading up) should also catch Stealer B as it goes 20 metres...

 

Slips:

Full action Disengage (allowed Half Move)

Reaction this Round to evade damage from Stealer B

Move 3 metres directly away from Stealer B

Wait.

When Round 5 begins declare Reaction: Standard Attack Pistol (Point Blank) Genestealer B.

 

Sabaan:

Engage as situation dictates as not in Squad Mode any more.  Ideally kill either Stealer B or Stealer 4 with a SAB if Stealer C is Dead.

If not just plaster Stealer C and we'll deal with the other one.

 

Akkad:

Half Action: Declare Squad Mode Fire For Effect (2 Cohesion),Sustained (it means it lasts turn to turn if we need it)

Free Action holster knife

Half Action to Ready Cadence.

Declare Reaction: Standard Attack Bolt Pistol Genestealer B (will be under penalties until you move Slips - time to pray old son)

 

Awaiting GM and player approval before me dude acts.

 

Thoughts below.

Edited November 24, 2018 by Mazer Rackham

[Steel Company]

Yea, I saw it after I posted MR, like I said when I get some time later today, I'll dig up the exact workings and provide it for CM to rule.

 

As far as I have understood everything, I've been following both RAW and RAI when it comes to multi weapon fighting with swift attack.

[Mazer Rackham]

MR, using multi attack is a full action, not a half action.

 

I dig brother, but it would have to be two separate attacks as by definition, to Multiple Attack you'd need Two-Weapon Wielder as a pre-requisite and the only way around that would be two standard half-action attacks - or am I not getting something?

 

EDIT: Swift attack allows that through RAI/RAW but not all of us have that one. 

 

MR.

Edited November 24, 2018 by Mazer Rackham

[Steel Company]

 

MR, using multi attack is a full action, not a half action.

 

I dig brother, but it would have to be two separate attacks as by definition, to Multiple Attack you'd need Two-Weapon Wielder as a pre-requisite and the only way around that would be two standard half-action attacks - or am I not getting something?

 

EDIT: Swift attack allows that through RAI/RAW but not all of us have that one. 

 

MR.

 

 

 

Kinda, it falls down into looking at Multi-attack and the rules for two weapon fighting found on page 246....

 

Multiple attacks

Type: Full Action

Subtype: Attack, Melee or Ranged

This action allows the active character to make more than one attack on his Turn, provided he has the Swift Attack or Lightning Attack talent, or is wielding a weapon in his secondary hand. See Two-Weapon Fighting, page 246.

 

Two-Weapon Fighting

Many warriors fight with a weapon in either hand. There are advantages and disadvantages to this style of fighting. While it offers some improved opportunities to make attacks, it reduces the chances of successfully striking a target. Unless a two-weapon fighter has the Ambidextrous Talent, it is important to consider which hand is his primary hand and which is his secondary hand; players should have these details noted on their Battle-Brothers’ character sheets. The following apply when a character is fighting with two weapons:

 

• The character may use any melee weapons or ranged weapons that can be reasonably used in one hand.

 

• The character may use either hand to make an attack. Attacks made using the character’s secondary hand suffer a –20 penalty to Weapon Skill or Ballistic Skill Tests.

 

• If the character has the Two-Weapon Wielder talent, he may use the Multiple Attacks combat Action to attack with both weapons, but each suffers a –20 penalty to the Weapon Skill or Ballistic Skill Test. If the character has the ambidextrous Talent, these penalties drop to –10.

 

• If the character is wielding at least one melee weapon, he may perform a Parry Reaction once each Round as normal with this weapon, though he still may not Parry more than once in a Round. This Weapon Skill Test is not an attack, and therefore it does suffer the standard penalty for attacks made using a secondary hand.

 

• If a character with the Two-Weapon Wielder Talent is armed with a melee weapon in one hand and a pistol in the other, he may attack with both whilst engaged in melee combat using the Multiple Attacks combat action. Resolve each attack separately by testing Weapon Skill for the melee weapon and Ballistic Skill for the pistol.

 

• When firing a ranged weapon with each hand, the character may fire each weapon on a different mode, for example, one on full automatic and one on semi-automatic. When firing a full automatic weapon in each hand, the character may only lay down one area of Suppressive Fire.

 

• The character may fire two weapons at different targets, though the targets must be within 10 metres of each other.

 

It is very unclear if those of us with out two weapon wielder skills can use it, as it say that it can be done yet at the same time it says that we can't...

 

This is more important for Tyber, as Tyber has been the only one thus far to actually use two weapons at the same time to attack with (aside from Varvost, one time).... CM I apologize for thinking that the two weapon wielder talent reduced the negitives even more on two weapon fighting, that may have been a house rule from my group that went along with allowing Astartes to dual wield weapons easier than mortals, I'm not sure as it has been a while.

[Mazer Rackham]

That's exactly what I mean mate! :D

 

Needs the GM to rule on it.

 

BTW, post above updated.  Think you'll like it.

 

PS, once this combat is done Akkad is going to sit down and get drunk with Vortis.

 

MR.

[Commissar Molotov]

I will look at it and try to make it make sense. Considering all Deathwatch are ambidextrous anyway, there are pointless rules copy-pasted from Dark Heresy that we need to ignore. 

 

Mazer - I can't see anything mechanically wrong with your ideas, other than whether Vaidan should enter his Novamarine squad mode and get Solastion to join it to get a bonus to called shots? It's up to you to enlist the other players into your mad schemes! 

[Mazer Rackham]

 You're a top fella Mol.

 

I'm going to pop the SQM, they both just simply need to declare they are abandoning prev ones and joining mine, they can do it for free and without a test, since it's Codex and since we're in Support Range and have 1 point of Cohesion and I will be Sustaining the SQM.  That's the beauty of the mad mechanics.  I would suggest not to bother with Called shots, having everyone at Point Blank will give +30 to his anyway and we just want to deal damage at this point.

 

Or Vaidan can die.  It's up to Reyner 

 

I agree wholly on two weapon fighting - it's (abominable) Dark Heresy copypasta all over again.

 

MR.

Edited November 24, 2018 by Mazer Rackham

[Reyner]

I like the way you think Mazer! The roof may soon be on fire and we don't need no water!

[Steel Company]

MR, seems the dice really hate Akkad's bolt rounds at times....

[Slips]

Now, the Problem with all this is that Solastion is currently frenzied; id have to pass a Challenging WP test vs 63 to break out of it to do anything that isnt attempt to murder the Genestealers.

[Xin Ceithan]

Phew! But once again, Omnissiah blessed Iron triumphs over cheap after market organics !

 

I seem to out of likes already? But thanks for all the info and sensible ruling of the ambidextrous issue there, Mol!

 

Given that it is the subject of Hatred, Sabaan will stomp the life out of "c" and then finish off "4" I think. It's both a matter of professional pride and after all,

 

The Strong are strong are strongest alone , n'est ce ca?

[Nineswords]

I didn't think I'd get so much mileage out of running through a corridor and kicking a door, but here's my placeholder filled. Mol and I have agreed on what happens next, and I'm writing furiously now!

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/344357-kill-team-blackthorn-contact/?p=5196283

[Commissar Molotov]

Xin - the map is pre your turn - Genestealer C is definitely dead!

 

EDIT: I have worked with Mazer's post to give Sabaan the opportunity to execute Genestealer 4, though! 

Edited November 24, 2018 by Commissar Molotov

[Commissar Molotov]

Mazer/Steel: I found this thread on the FFG community that might be of some interest to us: https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/111586-multiple-attackstwo-weapon-fighting-talent/

 

It says: 

 

 

 

The rules concerning Two Weapon Fighting (TWF) evolved after a ruling from the Dark Heresy ruleset came out. The ruling stated, anyone could use TWF at any time without any training. The downside is, all attacks are at -30 to hit + other penalties. This ruling was quickly ported over to Rogue Trader and Deathwatch. Essentially, the only change was, you don't need TWF talents to use TWF, but you suffer an additional -10 over normal penalties for TWF.

 

Now that is out of the way.

 

TWF has two talents, Two Weapon Wielder: Melee (TWWM) and Two Weapon Wielder: Ranged (TWWR). TWWM only affects melee actions/talents, though TWWR is a requirement for some ranged talents which cannot be used while engaged (Dual Shot for instance.)

 

You are correct in stating a character can only use melee subtype actions when engaged.

Pistols, however, are allowed to make a single shot attack, with no bonuses for size or distance, using BS as a melee subtype action.

 

This pistol attack can also be used with multiple attack actions (Swift/Lightning Attack).

 

TWF works in the following manner. You may make a single extra attack with a second (usually off-hand) weapon in addition to your normal attacks (including Swift/Lightning). But all attacks (main-hand and off-hand) suffer -30 to hit.

 

If a character has TWWM and ONLY attack with a melee weapon the penalty drops by 10.

If a character has TWWR and ONLY attack with ranged weapons the penalty drops by 10.

 

IF a character attacks with both a melee AND a ranged weapon using TWF, it needs BOTH TWWM AND TWWR to have the penalty drop by 10.

 

If you have the ambidextrous trait, the penalty for TWF drops by 10.

 

For example a character with TWWM:

 

Attacks with a melee weapon and a pistol weapon, it makes all attacks at -30.

 

Attacks with only 2 melee weapons, it makes all attacks at -20

 

The character then gains the ambidextrous trait:

 

Attacks with a melee weapon and a pistol weapon, it makes all attacks at -20.

 

Attacks with only 2 melee weapons, it makes all attacks at -10

 

The character then gains the TWWR talent:

 

Attacks with a melee weapon and a pistol weapon, it makes all attacks at -10.

 

Attacks with only 2 melee weapons, it makes all attacks at -10

 

 

Thoughts?

Edited November 24, 2018 by Commissar Molotov

[Xin Ceithan]

Very nice post and very gracious of you to give Sabaan the opportunities to finish off two meatbags in one round ;)

 

The ruling on the TWF just makes my head spin. So they even split the talent on wether using twin melee or mixed weapons..or twin pistols? There should be a flowchart....