PBB's Thousand Sons, Daemons and Chaos // Nurgle Knight

[DuskRaider]

I'd have to side with Kraut on this. The blue looks out of place IMO, as does the white on what is quote obviously a Khornate Knight. Personally, I think predominantly red with black details (chevrons, maybe a few smaller pieces of armour or halves red / black). I would say if you were to incorporate blue in any manner, perhaps have the cracks in the armour glow as if there's blue flame but even then I'd either go traditional coloration or if you fear it will blend with the red too much, go green.

[Pandoras Bitz Box]

Right, okey dokey!

 

@Krautscientist

Well for a start Kraut, please don't hesitate in future. I really value your feedback on my thread as I imagine others do on theirs. I haven't been here long but I do get the impression that you have a reputation for picking holes... which is fine, because the other impression I get from your own work is that you REALLY give a crap. You wanted people to get the best from their mini's is not a crime. It also means that when you say you like something, that has some real value (I'm super pleased you like the pilot by the way).  I hope that when I've built up sufficient reputation as a decent serving member of B&C, as well as earned peoples respect for my body of work much like yourself, Augs, BCK, etc... I will feel more comfortable giving honest feedback.  I do try to give constructive feedback but I still have that feeling in the back of my mind that the person I'm saying it to might just think "man, what a dick", when I'm just trying to help.

 

So bottom line is, I rely on this kind of straight, honest feedback in order to progress.  This applies to everyone who gives me feedback, but especially you as I've come to expect the critique. I get perversely excited to see you have commented so I can read the bit where you take something apart so I can carve something useful out of what remains.  The main trouble with this project has been the time limit.  Between me posting and getting enough responses to have an idea of what the general opinion is, maybe 5 or 6 days can go past... but I would be working on this project EVERY NIGHT. I have less than 2 weeks before I want to give this to my friend wrapped. So when you said "It looks like you made this up as you went a long"... absolutely I did. I would have an idea, then try to run it by everyone but have this bizarre time delay where sometimes I wouldn't have worked on something that was suggested and other times it was too late. I have been winging this entire thing. the only thing I did plan slightly was the shield, where I offered two options I'd drawn as sketches, the rest I made up ever step of the way.

 

 

 

So... the colours/heraldry.  These are the general feelings I have...

 

1. My friend was happy to have the Colours, thought it was a cool idea... but then also said he was happy with what ever I chose

2. I like the idea of giving it the same colours as his berzerkers.

3. I preferred it when it was red, but I didn't like how featureless the colour scheme was.

4. I quite like the designs but not how bright the white is so considered doing some heavy weathering so it appeared as if it was once white.

5. Augs (agreed by others) suggested that I would need to do some work to even out the colour scheme

6. Krautscientist (agreed by Duskraider) likes the more plain Khorne Red, thinks I would need to put in some work to develop heraldry.

 

 

That's obviously very condensed. Given my time constraints I think I'm just going to have to go back to red, I will send a message to Krakendoomcool and Bymis (who know the recipient IRL) to get a quick opinion off them before I dive in. I know it means undoing my previous hours of work but I think trying to change the heraldry colours to something else, with the hope that they MIGHT look better will take a lot more hours, and since I have maybe 30 hours left to work on this I think I will have to just go with the safety option.

 

The armour plates are already broken up already with the sculpting I've done, so maybe I'm just trying too hard. I'm pretty sure that I narrated all of these very real concerns throughout the process. So it would be ridiculous of me to refuse to go back a step.

 

 

Thanks so much guys. I've honestly never tried this hard with my hobbying before and it is largely thanks to the feedback I get from you lot.

 

I'll post more pictures up when I get a chance.

[Krakendoomcool]

The sculpting and converting is so good on this I think that’s what you should allow to shine through. A simpler colour scheme would make all those details more visible, you’ve put enough on to not need the extra colours.

 

The knight would never have been in Legion colours (white and blue) in the first place, presumably.

 

It might be just as easy for you to paint it all in red and not have the highlight different colours.

 

The friend is gonna be blown away, I guarantee it.

 

Well done Krautscientist for breaking the ice on this. We all had our doubts (about the white and blue) and really liked the model you’ve made here.

[Pandoras Bitz Box]

Okey, so I've undone that stuff, back to classic Khorne.

I still have to work on all the highlights and lowlights as well as some of the detailing but I'm not foar off the model, just have to finished the base.

Thanks again everyone.

[KrautScientist]

First of all, I am really glad you took my criticism the right way! I'm not sure that poking holes in stuff is really my specialty -- I will say, however, that once a model intrigues me enough, I tend to have strong opinions about it, and I am not shy to state them. I also think I usually make an effort to think about things before I actually comment -- hence my initial hesitation, I suppose. Still, thanks for the kind words!

 

I actually think the model looks a lot better that way - remember, though: I am heavily biased ;) The overall look is more straightforward and less conflicted, for lack of a better word, giving the conversion much more room to breathe. As for making the red armour plates a bit more interesting from here on out, which I believe was your initial problem about this colour scheme, I'd suggest two things:

 

• highlighting, obviously ;) One thing that might look really cool is to use a pretty bright, red-orange highlight on the ridges of those "scars" with the skulls emerging from them, making it look as though the metal there was hot. It's an easy effect to overdo, though, so try it first!
• something that adds a lot of texture to a Knight is to collect a mix of decals and add them to the carapace: This can be a mix of more standard decals (such as the small yellow AdMech "warning signs" and weird tech-runes on the one hand, and more openly chaotic signs on the other hand. Given the more warped nature of your Knight, you probably don't want to go too heavy on the decals, but just a few here and there can really make a difference -- plus while they provide some nice extra detail, they usually draw all the attention, especially if you weather them a bit.

Anyway, hope this helps!

[rednekkboss]

I'll echo His Krauttiness, I like it better this way too. No that the other was bad, but maybe just not right for this particular model, though I "got" where you were going with it.  Does that guy ever get to hit anything with his hammer though? I feel bad for him. Perhaps its his rage and frustration that drive it. A couple dents or paint scuffs on the top from him beating on it "Get closer, dammit!!" maybe.   Keep going, mate! It looks great!

Edited December 10, 2018 by rednekkboss

[Augustus b'Raass]

His Krautiness indeed had some very, very good points, which I was ready to echo but was too tired to do last night. Now you've gone back to the knight and undone the bold blue and red things, which I commend. It takes a lot to undo things, but like Krauty said and you have echoed: it's for the best - this model is interesting enough to just do in red and brass. 

 

A couple mroe suggestions:

 

• If you want, you could still do some heraldic work, but in colours that are complement the basic colour scheme - like black, brown, dark bone, or perhaps even orange? If you want, I could suggest some for you - draw a super crude picture in microsoft paint (I am what youngsters call 'old' and have often not a clue about programs, or apps as they are called these days) and post it here. 
• About making the armour plates more intersting, I'll echo Kraut's second suggestion of small details. The Knight transfer sheet has these very nice triangular yellow transfers that will do a lot to make stuff look interesting. I also used the numbersin weird angles to make them look more alien. 
• Krauty's first point about making the textures looks good can be achieved a different, easier way: just follow GW's Duncan's advice on painting the skin of the Bloodthirster. There's plenty detail on the plates, so drybrushing should really help in making this thin pop. If you don't believe me, I've used drybrushing on my recent Knights and it worked wonders!

Another, final point: I love how humble yet giving you are in your advice and participating in the community, but also get the sense that you're a bit uncertain in it - mainly from this part of your second to last post: 

I hope that when I've built up sufficient reputation as a decent serving member of B&C, as well as earned peoples respect for my body of work much like yourself, Augs, BCK, etc... I will feel more comfortable giving honest feedback.  I do try to give constructive feedback but I still have that feeling in the back of my mind that the person I'm saying it to might just think "man, what a dick", when I'm just trying to help.

But seriously, you don't need to worry about your tone. The fact that Kraut, I and others - but especially Kraut - have given you critical feedback shows that he thinks you can take it, and that comes from your contributions to his and plenty other threads, including my own. Kraut can be a pain in the ass with his incessant feedback, but he only gives it with the best of intentions and -like he wrote above - if he feels strongly about the project and the frater doing it. And I've even seldomer (is that a word?) seen his comments not making complete and utter sense. It can be annoying, because you have to go back to something you spent hours of work on, like you have. But it almost always pays off - again, like in your case. I fear Ive gotten slightly off point here, so let me get back to it. What I'm trying to say is; don't worry, you're 

 

http://media.giphy.com/media/Ae7SI3LoPYj8Q/giphy.gif

[Pearson73]

The painting's coming on really well, I think Kraut was right and that this simpler, less busy, scheme works much better. As the others have said, a more simple paint scheme lets all the conversion work and extra detail really shine through.

[DuskRaider]

The knight would never have been in Legion colours (white and blue) in the first place, presumably.

 

 

By the way, KDC is right. House Ærthegn were loyal to Horus Lupercal only, seeing as he literally defeated their previous Chieftain (literally tore a Knight apart himself). In fact, even their other allies were wary of trusting them and there's precedence of them attacking and raiding their allies during campaigns, most notably House Atrax. They wouldn't have accepted any Legion scheme, let alone any outside the Sons of Horus. 

 

That's not to say they wouldn't have done battle alongside World Eaters or any other Traitor Legion or would have formed an alliegance post-Heresy, but they would have retained their heraldry or some form of it. You should check out their backstory, they're actually really interesting.

[Mechanist]

Much as I loved the white skull freehand the size and brightness really did distract. If you have the time to do a few smaller symbols, kill marks and the like I'd go for it I think the size was the biggest issue before.

If the level of colour and highlighting across the whole model matches the pilot in skill then it'll look amazing.

 

The hazard marks on the one cable in the neck look a little out of place alone, I'd be tempted to add a few more. try to look the face in the eyes and pick some cables out of the mass that frame it, with the large area of silver and a few other framing details like hazard striped cables you could really help direct the eye towards the main head. 

[Khornestar]

Might have to call this the finest Khornate knight I’ve ever seen. Seeing this paint scheme on it is a joy. Nice work, dude!

[Kor Dalron]

Fantastic job on the Knight, such an amazing project from start to finish!

And you have a lot of talent to spare, I think the brought up critique is justified but only to achieve the best outcome possible of which I think you are fully capable!

Edited December 13, 2018 by Kor Dalron

[Pandoras Bitz Box]

Ok, I'm still not done, but I only have like a week left now, if that... so I think I'm going to be done in a few days maybe with some wiggle room if I notice any issues. took some photos to give an idea of it so far, I'm mostly working on the base now, not sure what else to do to the model, I know I need to finish the symbol and severed heads.

If anyone wants close ups of any parts they think might need work or something please let me know and I'll see what I can do otherwise, the next round of photos are likely to be of the finished product... geeze... I started this at the beginning of october, and Ive worked on it almost every knight for about two hours a night since then... Seems weird I'm at the end.

Right, comments...

Wow, thank you so much everyone, I've really appreciated this support all the way through this project. I actually saw some of these before and was so overwhelmed I wasn't sure how to respond straight way. so I guess I'll have a go now...

@Krautscientist

Ha ha, right, I didnt mean it like that... you have a very critical eye and you are happy to point out even small flaws if you see them and you think the recipient would benefit from the knowledge. That's really what I'm thinking anyway and I REALLY appreciate it. The glowing coming from in the cracks of the armour I quite like in concept, it had crossed my mind previously, but as I've gone with bone for the ridges I didnt want the hot glow to be reflecting of that as it wouldnt be a huge contrast. my highlights are so far just Mephiston on Khorne red so maybe I could do some slightly oranged sharp highlights just to pic those edges out? Decals... If I'm honest I've never used. I see other people use them very effectively but i've always been kind of afraid of them since trying to use them a long time ago and thinking they look terrible. If I did use them I would probably use them as a guide and paint over them, but even then, I'm just not sure the best place to put them and make it look right maybe I'll have a go somewhere on the model it will be easy to paint over like on one of the hatches. and make it look worn off.

@Rednekkboss

Yeah everyone seems to like the rewind back to this scheme more and me no less. I think he would love it either way but I do want to do a decent job of it. My friend also has a sense of humour so I think he will really love the very angry man trying to disembowel and bludgen his enemies from the top of what amounts to, a stabby building with legs.

@Augustus b'Rass

I had already considered that I wouldnt keep the work I was going to do on the knights heraldry when I did it... so even though it felt like a wast of time having done it, I think I was glad I had tried it and realised it looked better without, than not tried at all and wondered if I should have tried to add something. Also if I ignored the advice of all the people trying to help me then what is the point of me posting here at all! Im free to ignore advice if I think I have better reasons to continue but I wasn't completely happy with the result so it made the most sense to undo it. I'm not sure what I'm going to do about more details, as I said to Kraut I may try a transfer tonight just to see how it comes out but I'm not that familiar with using them so I may just leave them and go for the safety option as I'm doing with the colour scheme. I have added some weathering, to it to help add some texture. Cheers for your encouraging words... its kind of weird to me to receive such praise from the people I've come to respect so much, knowing how new I am to the forum. I do feel so welcome though and really appreciate being inducted into the fold. I'm coming to recognise with peoples comments and my own ambitions and ideas that I am always improving and to recognise where my skills are. It was super weird for me to write a tutorial for example, but I've done two now and people seem to really like them. Knowing you consider me one of you guys is a better feeling than I think I would ever get from a badge in my signature. (...although I might try to aquire some of those next year )

@Pearson73

Cheers, I've gotten a lot more comfortable with my painting thoughout this project and while there are things I'm not super happy with, there are others I'm very proud of.

@DuskRaider

When I did the research on the house, I didnt delve that deeply BUT that was with reason. I understood that all of the houses would have their own interesting and unique stories, so all I wanted was a house that had some certain traits that would favour the Khornate mentality. This was because I figured I could happily get away without using any heraldry or altering the heraldry somehow because my thinking was that the world eaters had basically stolen this knight from the dead owner of it. I think I read that most of this house got killed and the remains of them were scattered about a bit. I thought it would be quite cool if they had come across each other and the world eaters saw how crazy this knight was. They disable it, kill the pilot... rebuild it, complete with rituals that give it a bit more of a warpy connection... then brutally induct a new pilot, which by the looks of the size of him could easily be a space marine. No need for pilot training if they jam a load of wires from the cockpit into his armour sockets and butchers nails? As I said previously I only had a loose idea of its backstory but this was one instance.

@Mechanist

I know what you mean about that one wire, I had done it originally as a tester, liked it but forgot to add more. I've added another one since and I quite like how that looks as well as a not super obvious glow to the eyes of the knights head that give it a bit more character and draw a little more attention.

@Juggernut

Well I dont think I could ask for a greater compliment in this context, thanks so much man, I hope my friend likes it just as much! I've showed him Krautscientist's knight and he thought it was awesome, I told him this one didnt look like that, but was hopefully differently awesome. There are people casting some pretty big shadows in the WIP threads...

@Kor Dalron

Thanks! and yes... Critique is very important. I'm happy to have it, I've come from an art background in the past and it was just a staple of that, and I also enjoy debate about one thing or another, which is basically taking it in turns to critique each others points! It's very normal to me. Obviously you have to do it in such a way that doesn't make you come across as a jerk just trying to put someone down but some people just struggle to receive it. The very recipient of this knight I have known since we were kids... I mean pre-memory long time... and I specifically remember an instance when we were teenagers maybe, where he drew a picture I thought was really cool and I Thought could be even cooler with some adjustment, when I gave the suggestion he got really annoyed with me that I had any criticism. I think it was the first critique I ever gave (not knowing what one was then) and I learned a valuable lesson... that not everyone wants to know your actual opinion, regardless of how helpful you are trying to be.

Thanks again everyone for your interest in the project, all of your feedback and your so-indescribably awesome encouragement.

[KrautScientist]

The Knight is looking absolutely fantastic now, and I would love to see as many detail pictures as you can manage, thank you very much! ;)

 

As for the subject of decals, just a clarification: I wasn't talking about massive decals here, but rather small stuff that adds a layer of plausibility to the model: Little warning signs, chaotic runes, stuff like that. Now the important part is to give them a proper weathering afterward, which will usually prevent them from sticking out like a sore thumb and looking horrible ;)

 

Anyway, this project just keeps getting better and better! Brilliant stuff! :)

[DuskRaider]

Yes! It looks great, PBB. A 110% improvement upon the paint job, I think you've nailed it.

 

Regarding the Knight House... you may be thinking of House Atrax, they were treated pretty poorly even before the Heresy, being enslaved and all. I don't think we ever learn the fate of any of the Traitor Knight Houses from the Heresy yet, it's all a guessing game until FW eventually informs us (if they ever do). You may also being thinking of House Devine. Filthy pervs.

[Pandoras Bitz Box]

Here are some closer pics, I'm not really sure what to take pictures of but these are some of the things I worked on...

These are the glowing eyes I tried to add to draw some more attention to the head. I'm really happy with the ones on the feral mask but I'm not really sure about the skull... for some reason I just cant get that one right...

On the Chain Cleaver I tried to add some scratches in the paint from use.

Around the pilot I added some scratches from him swinging his weapons about (not that it does him much good)

On the upper arms and legs, while I left them really dark and dirty metallic so that they wouldnt draw the eye too much, they looked way too strange and uniform, so I tried to add some subtle wear on them.

I still havent finished the symbol and heads but I have managed to do a little bit more to them. O havent taken many photos of the bast yet as there is still a bit to go on there picking out details but you can see I also added some weathering in the form of mud/dust around the feet and ankles.

@Krautscientist

Hope these were the kinds of photos you were thinking of?

@DuskRaider

Yeah I think I must have got confused and combined the histories of a couple of houses... my point still stands though, if they stole the knight then the history is flavoursome but irrelevant. Which is how I could have justified the absence or change in heraldry. This would also allow him to pick his own pre-world eaters house if he wants to. I will when I have a chance though try to actually read through my knight codex to learn more about them and try to cement my understanding and knowledge of the Houses and Knights

[Augustus b'Raass]

Wow this looks better and better.

 

I'd love to see some shots of the head from a couple angles. I still think the head is the focal point of the whole ensemble, and it should stick out somehow. Perhaps make the eyes blue with some OSL?

 

About transfers. See if you can get some Microscale Micro-Sol to losen your decals up. The trick with decals is to give the part you're going to apply the decal to a coat of gloss varnish (Wait to dry (WTD)), apply the decal with Micro-Sol (WTD), and then a coat of your regular varnish (gloss, matt, satin (or, as I like to do, a 1:1 mi of Satin and gloss)).

 

[Augustus b'Raass]

Ah, you ninja'd me with the closeups. 

 

I think honestly that the eyes of the head should be done in blue rather than in yellow. Yellow is far to close to gold/brass, and doesn't contrast well with  red. So of the primary colours available to you it's about the worst one to pick to contrast with the main colours of your Knight. Really, I would go for blue or green eyes for this one!

[Pandoras Bitz Box]

Ha ha, I wasn't expecting anyone to be commenting this early!

 

I could pick up some lamia medium for from the shop but what's micro sol? Don't you just need water to get them off?

 

As for the eyes... This is another hard one for me. The reason your giving for not using orange light is the exact one I gave to krautscientist for not using it on the cracks in the armour. I feel like I want to use the orange as the heat look feels right this angry machine... But it totally get where your coming from. I don't think I want to use green, seems too ghostly and ectoplasma. Blue is kind of cold, but does have that plasma association AND kinda links in a little with the blue he has on his worldeaters. Now, I know that Blue plasma is more of a loyalist thing and Orange is more of a chaos deal... At least that's something I've noticed. However, he does have a plasmablast gun on his worldeaters storm blade which is blue, so there would be continuity there. How about malevolant purple?

[DuskRaider]

Nah, I think the yellow looks great. Usually I'd agree to go with contrast but it just looks perfect on that head. 

[KrautScientist]

While I love me some glowing blue eyes, I'd feel tempted to stick with the orange in this case -- the effect is simply so well done. I'd suggest applying something similar to that "gem" at the centre of that LoS armour plate on the axe arm, though. Oh, and those heads dangling fromt the standard between the Knight's legs need some more detail work, obviously ;)

 

Apart from that, everything's looking fabulous, and if anything, I would love to see some pictures taken in ideal lighting conditions, because I actually have a suspicion the model looks even better in real life than is apparent in the pictures. So, if you'll allow me this request, please take all the time you need to take the best possible pictures before you hand it over. That would be awesome! :)

[Augustus b'Raass]

I could pick up some lamia medium for from the shop but what's micro sol? Don't you just need water to get them off?

Yes, preferably super hot water - it soaks the transfer right of. Micro Sol then makes the transfer softer than normal, which allows for a very smooth application. Here's what I mean. Seriously, proper transfer application needs this product.

 

 

 

 Now, I know that Blue plasma is more of a loyalist thing and Orange is more of a chaos deal... At least that's something I've noticed.

I've never noticed this at all and if it is, I think it is a ridiculous notion. Please, please, ignore it. I've always stayed away from red/yellow plasma; my Night Lords and World Eaters had/have blue plasma, my Imperial Fists have purple, and my Death Guard has green plasma.   

 

How about malevolant purple?

Hmmm... purple is a bit too close to red to give the eyes the 'pop' they need. I really would go for blue - especially since it's a colour your friend already has in his World Eaters army.

 

Edited December 18, 2018 by Augustus b'Raass

[KrautScientist]

How about malevolant purple?

 

Totally forgot to mention this earlier: Please, for the love of Khorne, no purple!

[Pandoras Bitz Box]

@duskraider

Thanks man, I'm both surprised and pleased at how well the eyes came out on the feral mask but I'm still not 100% happy with the glowing eyes in the skull. They aren't super obvious though so I could leave it I considered making them just dark brass sockets again... Maybe it's because they are so much in shadow it makes the OLS look weird?

 

@krautscientist

Brill, it would save me another job changing it to blue. I totally understood where Augustus was coming from but like you and Duskraider I'm very happy with the hot orange glow. I'm definitely going to putting up some proper pictures before it's delivered, for here and the blog, so don't worry about that. I've done the "gem" glow and also worked on the heads, trying to use the contrast on the salaander helmet and improve the hair and skin tones on the space wolf. The Grey Knight helmet though I'm struggling to improve on, I suppose I could try to REALLY push the highlights by doing white on the corners?

 

I read your comment on The purple OLS suggestion while going in for a wee at night and I thought I was going to wake the kids up when I laughed XD

 

@Augustus b'Raass

I toyed with the idea of the blue and I think it really would pop more but I think I'm going to stick with the burning eyes since the others seem to think I looks ok. It really weird making somerhing for someone else, where you have to get the hive mind opinion of a group to guess what they might like most. Also... I don't know where I got the blue/orange idea from... I assumed I had but maybe I just made it up. XD. On the subject of the transferes, I got my Renegade transfere sheet but couldn't really decide what from there to use... That in combination with my lack of lamia medium and the CRUCIAL Micro Sol (I don't even know where to get it), I think I'm going to skip this stage. I appreciate that yourself, Kraut and a few of the other guys have all used them with great success but with my ecroaching deadline I would be having to source the bits I need and the do a rush job on something I would be doing for the first time... So I think super funtime professional level decal use is going to have to wait until my next appropriate effort.

 

 

 

Ok guys, if I hve a chance I'll try to upload some pictures of the newest details and some of the base. I'm going to be trying to wrap this up buy Thursday though so I'll probably have final photos ready by Friday? We'll see. Thanks for sticking with this, Sprint finish now and it will all be over soon...

Edited December 19, 2018 by Pandoras Bitz Box

[Pandoras Bitz Box]

A quick update with some of those details...

looking at these I've forgotten to highlight the space wolves ginger hair, but otherwise, I think im about ready to stop... oh! and the pilots axe, I realised I only had bascoats on there so I need to shade and highlight it. Then I guess its time for the proper photos.

SO EXCITED FOR HIM TO OPEN THIS!!!

Edited December 19, 2018 by Pandoras Bitz Box