Intercessors redundant already?

[Kinstryfe]

I think it will depend entirely on the points cost, as has been mentioned. For frontal deployment I'm thinking Infiltrators may have a benefit, but I think the added range on Intercessors definitely makes them a better option for backfield objective camping, so I intend to have a couple units of both available to play around with.

[Prot]

Troop wise I don’t have any internal debate going on... scouts are still the best choice to me.

 

I figure the cost of Infiltrators to be the same, if not cheaper than Intercessors....especially as they sit right now ( meaning dry options until the full kit).

 

I really have a problem paying points for any troop without AP on the guns, unless they are scouts. 8th is so deadly that I just really don’t want another unit that’s good at killing Cultists.

 

The truth is the Psyker Powers have to help out a lot. The deep strike pushback is okay, but really these guys are shockingly mediocre at CC for a deep in the woods front line.

 

They will need a rule revamp quickly and significant help from Vigilus 2 in the meantime.

 

Long story short, unless these guys come out cheaper than Intercessors, I don’t see them replacing them... or scouts at all. ( plus there’s an effort to entice you to take 10 which is a dubious decision )

[Ishagu]

I'll probably run 2 squads in every list but I'll keep Intercessors also.

 

The codex is a bit of a mess right now. Lots of units outside of it, lots of keywords that don't synergise.

Will Reivers get the Phobos keyword? They are wearing the armour after all.

 

I sound like a broken record but I really feel we should wait for the next Codex before we pass any final judgement and simply make do with these limited rules in the meantime...

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I sincerely hope Intercessors are not redundant already, I have 10 on my paint desk as I type!

[Subtleknife]

I am hoping intercessors arent redundant seeing as I am painting 20 of the bloggers. Looking at it I think each have clear roles and are suited for different tasks. In the future once I get the core of my primaris sorted I can see running some of each type. Infiltrators to deny deepstrike or get some board control. Intercessors can then be used for back field obj control with the increased range or they can get up the table and start applying pressure. All this is really moot though until we see the points.

[Happy-inquisitor]

I'll probably run 2 squads in every list but I'll keep Intercessors also.

 

The codex is a bit of a mess right now. Lots of units outside of it, lots of keywords that don't synergise.

Will Reivers get the Phobos keyword? They are wearing the armour after all.

 

I sound like a broken record but I really feel we should wait for the next Codex before we pass any final judgement and simply make do with these limited rules in the meantime...

 

I agree but we may have to wait until the summer at least. CSM codex is just over the horizon (if my FLGS owner is not pulling my leg) but nothing on the sensors for Space Marines yet.

 

I think infiltrators overlap more with Scouts than with Intercessors. Curiously they are lower PL than scouts but with pretty fixed loads I expect them to work out more expensive in points than bare-bones scout squads and cheaper than fully-loaded-with-everything scouts. With a 3+ save and two wounds apiece they have a durability edge but are less customisable.

 

The models look so much nicer than Scouts (especially the heads) that my decision is easy :)

[MARK0SIAN]

As others have said, I think infliltrators will be good but I think their effectiveness will vary greatly depending on the army you face. For example I’d be grinning like a Cheshire Cat if you deployed them 9 inches away from my Custodes but I’d be more worried if you deployed them 9 inches away from my imperial guard.

 

I think intercessors suffer less from this problem in that their effectiveness will fluctuate slightly less depending on the army you face so I think they still have their place.

[Ishagu]

Just because you have access to the deployment rule doesn't mean you have to use it in every game. It's possible just to deploy them in a Repulsor for example.

[Panzer]

Just because you have access to the deployment rule doesn't mean you have to use it in every game. It's possible just to deploy them in a Repulsor for example.

Yeah but everytime you don't infiltrate them they are objectively worse than Intercessors. ^^

[Subtleknife]

You dont have to use the deployment rule to put them in the enemies face every time though. You could just grab midfield objectives etc before the match even starts

[Panzer]

So the leaked points say 22ppm for Infiltrators and extra points for the not-apothecary. Unless GW instantly gives out an Errata I doubt they'll even compete with Intercessors not to mention making them redundant. ^^

[Tamiel]

+5 points per guy over an intercessor is pretty hefty. On top of that, they have worse guns (the auto wound on 6s doesn't entice me compared to 30" range and -1 AP). And then there's the fact that you can't give power weapons to the sergeant at all. Personally, I like this. It means that people who are using infiltrators will need to have a very specific goal for them and execute it correctly, as opposed to putting infiltrators in their armies just because. The issue we had with scouts vs tactical marines was that a lot of people ended up picking scouts as their go-to troop choice, and in my opinion that is bad game design from GW. Specialist units (like scouts and infiltrators) should have very specific goals. They should not be the go-to troop choice.

[Captain Idaho]

At 22pts a model they don't even compete with Tactical Marines!

[Blindhamster]

At 22pts a model they don't even compete with Tactical Marines!

I think they serve a purpose, they're going to be good for games where you want to control specific objectives in the mid field, their anti deep strike bubble will mean they're safer than most from melee, their ability to infiltrate means they can more or less start the game on said objective and their helix chap means they're more resilient than tacticals or intercessors, particularly when they have a native way to get -1 to hit (which isn't a hard choice to make because their basic shooting is well.. basic).

 

I don't think i'd ever use more than 1 unit, but I'd probably use them.

 

 

+5 points per guy over an intercessor is pretty hefty. On top of that, they have worse guns (the auto wound on 6s doesn't entice me compared to 30" range and -1 AP). And then there's the fact that you can't give power weapons to the sergeant at all. Personally, I like this. It means that people who are using infiltrators will need to have a very specific goal for them and execute it correctly, as opposed to putting infiltrators in their armies just because. The issue we had with scouts vs tactical marines was that a lot of people ended up picking scouts as their go-to troop choice, and in my opinion that is bad game design from GW. Specialist units (like scouts and infiltrators) should have very specific goals. They should not be the go-to troop choice.

 I imagine they'll get more options, potentially even some sergeant options when the full kit drops.

[Disruptor_fe404]

At 22 per model, I'd be hard-pressed to field them outside of testing how they play a few times.

[Lemondish]

At 22 points per model they just became absolute garbage. Tactical Marines are better.

 

Yet again another Primaris failure. Are they really that afraid of the nerd rage if these new units step on old marine toes? Getting real sick of this trend.

[Subtleknife]

Well if that is their point cost probably best to wait a year, like with intercessors, and they will be good. For their points atm i would want an intercessors statline with the abilities of the infiltrators rolled into one. Outside of some very specific scenarios I cant see myself using them.

[Blindhamster]

i don't really get what you guys expected.

They have the same stats as an intercessor.

Their guns are different, they are worse against low toughness things, but arguably better against high toughness things thanks to that auto wound chance. Bolt Rifles are "free" anyway though.

Infiltrators get not 1 extra rule but 3 compared to intercessors: Smoke Grenades, Omni-Scrambler and Infiltrate.

 

They were always going to be at least a point or two more expensive at least. 22 is too much, but there is no way they'll be cheaper than intercessors.

[Disruptor_fe404]

I was hoping for 19 each, but expecting 20 as a conservative number. Definitely not expecting them to be cheaper than Intercessors.

[Prot]

i don't really get what you guys expected.

They have the same stats as an intercessor.

Their guns are different, they are worse against low toughness things, but arguably better against high toughness things thanks to that auto wound chance. Bolt Rifles are "free" anyway though.

Infiltrators get not 1 extra rule but 3 compared to intercessors: Smoke Grenades, Omni-Scrambler and Infiltrate.

 

They were always going to be at least a point or two more expensive at least. 22 is too much, but there is no way they'll be cheaper than intercessors.

I’ll be honest, and you guys can laugh at this if you like, but I expected them to come in at the same points as Intercessors.

 

The move from Intercessors to Infiltrators is lateral to me. You are trading in a power weapon, possibly a fist, a grenade launcher, and a longer range gun that has an ap value which can’t be compared. Every time a Ork unit pulls off a few t shirt saves on Bolters, it feels wrong. (As a single example)

 

To me scouts are still far superior. I don’t care about the Helix guy, he’s the cost of 1 and a half of these guys I believe and I don’t like to rely on 5s.

 

Scouts not only get me a decent outward push, they often carry a heavy Bolter which I convert to mortal wounds. Thei Bolters are just that, but with sniper rifles I really like them in what becoming aura hammer.

 

The scout discount is what actually frees up enough points in my lists to take a squad of 10 Intercessors for Indomintus Crusaders. My lists are Soooo tight against Xenos and other heavy hitters, I don’t have points for expensive Reivers with ObSec.

 

I’m not trying to be facetious when I say this but aside from testing it’s hard to imagine using any of these Vanguard aside from the Libbie.

 

I really don’t want to be negative, just honest. So I’ll keep my future Vanguard thoughts to myself until after testing. As I said before, I think this is really just Forgebane syndrome.

[Panzer]

At 22 points per model they just became absolute garbage. Tactical Marines are better.

 

Yet again another Primaris failure. Are they really that afraid of the nerd rage if these new units step on old marine toes? Getting real sick of this trend.

Keep in mind that these points are probably pre CA18. Lets wait for the first FAQ/Errata after the mini-Codex drops.

[Lemondish]

 

 

At 22 points per model they just became absolute garbage. Tactical Marines are better.

 

Yet again another Primaris failure. Are they really that afraid of the nerd rage if these new units step on old marine toes? Getting real sick of this trend.

Keep in mind that these points are probably pre CA18. Lets wait for the first FAQ/Errata after the mini-Codex drops.

Waithammer 40k

[Captain Idaho]

At 22 points per model they just became absolute garbage. Tactical Marines are better.

Yet again another Primaris failure. Are they really that afraid of the nerd rage if these new units step on old marine toes? Getting real sick of this trend.

Actually I think it has nothing to do with the old Marines nerd rage. I think it might be the other players out there. Allow me to explain:

 

Chaos Marines are the equivalent of Classic Marines and are just having a major new release. Genestealer Cult just had a major new release. We are likely to see Ynnari units in the future and World Eaters (please the World Eaters).

 

All those players and more would be unhappy if the new Marines range is broken on release. It turns folk away from the game. Whilst GW would love us to buy their new Marines in record numbers, the amount of players they'd lose because the game wasn't balanced enough is evident in previous editions.

 

And this edition GW have knocked it out of the park.

 

***

 

Incidentally, I read on the forums from a staff once (I think?) That Marines sales are actually less than Chaos. It's only when you factor in DA, SW and BA that those sales go higher than Chaos.

[Captain Idaho]

I think the problem with the new Vanguard is something many people won't want to face - the concept is flawed. They created a light recon force as a new release. Ambitious but ultimately not something anybody asked for. The Community Primaris fans have been saying for ages they want a decent assault unit, cheaper transport, new weapons to rival Hellblasters (Onslaught Cannons), even Breacher Shield Intercessors.

 

Nobody asked for camo Primaris with light weapons. Fast moving heavy weapons is a flawed concept since you're paying for speed you just won't use.

 

I'm not sure what is going on with GW and their Primaris line but they haven't built on the existing line with this release but a line that seems parallel. Even the psychic powers can't help the existing Primaris Marines!

[Panzer]

Even the psychic powers can't help the existing Primaris Marines!

Not entirely true though. Half of the new psychic powers work just fine in any non-Vanguard Marine list. Even one completely without any Primaris aside of that psyker. And if GW gives Reivers the Phobos keyword then that's three more powers that work on one of the already existing Primaris Marine units.