Intercessors redundant already?

[Ishagu]

I said they'd be superior with a point drop. Everything I said was with the pre condition of them getting a point reduction.

[Ciler]

New Oldmarines? Never.

I just hope they will give us an Index to play them in the next edition or two.

Wiping away the legacy of 8 Editions and rendering the bulk of their poster boy models unplayable... that'd be a decision of EA levels of dickishness.

I don't see GW squating oldmarines outright for the simple reason that the second this happens, my oldmarine becomes just a short intercessor. So rest assured we will get some way to play them. WHat is likely to happen though is that although playable, the army will be made to perform poorly, making the choice of taking it off the table made by the players.

[Captain Idaho]

I said they'd be superior with a point drop. Everything I said was with the pre condition of them getting a point reduction.

But they won't be superior getting a points drop. As I've said, tough and expensive Infantry aren't cost effective to just be a screen.

 

They'd have to be broken in cost to be worthwhile. If you want a screen you go cheap, if you want line infantry you go Intercessors, if you want specialist weapons you go Tactical Marines. Infiltrators fit in where?

[Blindhamster]

 

I said they'd be superior with a point drop. Everything I said was with the pre condition of them getting a point reduction.

But they won't be superior getting a points drop. As I've said, tough and expensive Infantry aren't cost effective to just be a screen.

 

They'd have to be broken in cost to be worthwhile. If you want a screen you go cheap, if you want line infantry you go Intercessors, if you want specialist weapons you go Tactical Marines. Infiltrators fit in where?

 

 

probably if you want something between a scout and an intercessor in terms of role? They're too expensive as is, but a drop to around a point more than intercessors, I'd use them, if they're the same price or cheaper i'd definitely use them.

[HighMarshalAmp]

 

New Oldmarines? Never.

I just hope they will give us an Index to play them in the next edition or two.

Wiping away the legacy of 8 Editions and rendering the bulk of their poster boy models unplayable... that'd be a decision on EA levels of dickishness.

I don't see GW squating oldmarines outright for the simple reason that the second this happens, my oldmarine becomes just a short intercessor. So rest assured we will get some way to play them. WHat is likely to happen though is that although playable, the army will be made to perform poorly, making the choice of taking it off the table made by the players.

 

Purposefully sabotaging an army but leaving it in the rules so proxying becomes less of an option is kinda even worse.

Like... not even EA would do that.

 

...or would they o.0

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

All GW has to do is properly cost SM and we will be competitive again.

[War Angel]

All GW has to do is properly cost SM and we will be competitive again.

Space Marines will never be competitive because some other variant codex will do it better. Marines gain a cool heavy infantry, death watch gets it but with special issue ammo (btw this is probably why they gave infiltrators a new type of Bolter) we get a cool plasma gun unit, dark angles get it, but with +1D. We get a cool CC squad, so does blood angles and space wolves, but they have whatever they do to make it better.

 

Were just the testing zone for the better Marines.

[Panzer]

Infiltrators aren't really competing with Scouts. Scouts are great because they are cheap and because they bring something to the table without relying on their ability to deal damage (aka infiltration). Mainly because they are cheap though now that reserves can't come in turn 1 anymore. Doesn't help that Scouts also have access to Heavy Bolter which is simply a strong option due the Hellfire Stratagem.

Infiltrators aren't cheap Troops and never will be as cheap as Scouts so the main reason why you take Scouts doesn't apply to Infiltrators at all. That makes them actually compete with Tacticals and Intercessors instead, however they lack the damage output to compete with those as well (as that's the only thing they have going for them). Especially at 22ppm.

[Panzer]

 

All GW has to do is properly cost SM and we will be competitive again.

Space Marines will never be competitive because some other variant codex will do it better. Marines gain a cool heavy infantry, death watch gets it but with special issue ammo (btw this is probably why they gave infiltrators a new type of Bolter) we get a cool plasma gun unit, dark angles get it, but with +1D. We get a cool CC squad, so does blood angles and space wolves, but they have whatever they do to make it better.

 

Were just the testing zone for the better Marines.

 

 

Except that vanilla Marines have units the other chapters don't have access to and it happened several times that the vanilla Marines ended up more competetive.

Like currently BA don't have a Primarch, no specialised detachments, no Venerable Dreadnought and a whole bunch of other units (really don't care to list them all right now). In return BA have other units vanilla Marines don't have, however which are currently not that strong for the most part (nobody uses the Furioso or the DC Dread or the Baal Pred and Deathcompany and Sanguinary Guard got largely replaced by Vanguard Veterans).

I agree that sometimes BA&Co look like Marines++ but it's really more of a sidegrade than an upgrade.

[Ishagu]

Some of those BA units are great. The reason many things are ignored is because of the publicity shift of 40k into a competitive game.

 

As a result net lists and winning lists dictate what people play more so than ever.

 

The truth is many of the ignored units can be used in games perfectly well. They just aren't for winning tournaments against the most efficient lists.

[Captain Idaho]

Aren't you a competitive gamer?

 

Regardless, it isn't tournament play that makes folk dislike grossly uncompetitive choices. It's the fact that taking something that is poor is making the game unfair for the person taking it and who wants to play a game they won't enjoy because of it?

 

(And before someone says "but the game is unbalanced already blah blah blah; that doesn't mean we should make it even more unfair and ignore all attempts at balance. It's a poor argument)

[Brother Casman]

Y'know, if we were looking at just the Space Marines, I'd be mighty tempted to say that perhaps the Scouts need to come up in points. That would make the decision on which troops to take less automatic. 

[The Unseen]

I don't avoid bringing melee dreads because I want to win tournaments, I don't bring them because they feel bad to bring just so they can die before doing anything

[Panzer]

Y'know, if we were looking at just the Space Marines, I'd be mighty tempted to say that perhaps the Scouts need to come up in points. That would make the decision on which troops to take less automatic. 

 

I'd actually agree. ^^

[Ishagu]

Aren't you a competitive gamer?

 

Regardless, it isn't tournament play that makes folk dislike grossly uncompetitive choices. It's the fact that taking something that is poor is making the game unfair for the person taking it and who wants to play a game they won't enjoy because of it?

 

(And before someone says "but the game is unbalanced already blah blah blah; that doesn't mean we should make it even more unfair and ignore all attempts at balance. It's a poor argument)

Yeah I'm super competitive, in the right circumstances.

 

Not every game is at a tournament. I'd hate to limit my choices or the units I can run.

[MrZakalwe]

The deep strike denial buff. Impressive but the three inches looks minimally useful against the armies that it should help the most against like Orks/ Tyranids/ and GSC. They’re so fast it a crap shoot that three inches is a true difference maker.

 

 

Don't underestimate that ability against Orks/Chaos using Da Jump or Dark Matter crystal. Few units can even declare a charge at more than 12" let alone have a chance of landing it. 

 

. WHat is likely to happen though is that although playable, the army will be made to perform poorly, making the choice of taking it off the table made by the players.

 

 

I've not really seen GW treating 40k players like that- even the Sisters range could be pretty powerful on the table before the beta rules came in. The team behind AoS does this constantly but the 40k team seem to be generally a lot less scummy these days - long may it continue!

 

 

Y'know, if we were looking at just the Space Marines, I'd be mighty tempted to say that perhaps the Scouts need to come up in points. That would make the decision on which troops to take less automatic. 

 

Would scouts perform well if shoehorned into another faction's lists? I think you'd rarely see them taken over native options for most (Custodes etc excluded!).

 

Scouts seem appropriately costed while the other troops choices just don't fill a niche that's valued at a competitive level while for normal games Intercessors have performed very, very nastily in my experience since the beta bolter rules (they were OK before but doubling their firepower at range for backfield objective sittters has been brutal).

[Prot]

Y'know, if we were looking at just the Space Marines, I'd be mighty tempted to say that perhaps the Scouts need to come up in points. That would make the decision on which troops to take less automatic. 

 

But we're not. We are looking at a Scout vs. 40K. Vs a cultist, an Ork boy, all of it.

 

If we looked at 40K in a fish bowl, that new Vanguard box is mostly fine. In a world were only those 750~ point armies exist... .it's all great.  :)

 

I find a great challenge in using Intercessors. I actually find hyper competitive games, and units very boring.

 

The problem becomes apparent though when I am playing in a setting, or a tournament that doesn't share that vision of 40K. I always say there are a LOT of ways to approach 40K so I never marginlize someone's way of looking at the game. And I really believe this.

 

The problem is that I think forever more Space Marines are the gateway drug. It doesn't matter how well Intercessors work. Many people will start this game by buying them..... Then go to Dark Eldar, or Tau, or Knights.. or whatever.

 

Yet look at the threads going on right now for Vanguard. There's some infantry that many people are on the fence about in that box (Space Marines) and a set of new Chaos models from a line that hasn't really been touched in who knows... a decade? Yet look at the thread sizes..... the 'terrible' Marine side is still more popular.

[Dracos]

Edit: sour grapes ;)

[GreyCrow]

There is a secret conclusion hidden in the math of both units.

 

One assumption first : Marines are supposed to be played with a 1-2 blob of Troops with HQ rerolls (80% of points) supported by very specific auxiliary units (20%).

It's supported by a few recent experiences, with fantastically efficient results (36 Intercessors with Chapter Master and Lieutenant capable to kill an Armiger in 1 round of shooting and cripple a 2nd in charge, with Power Fists).

I've never played a Marines list that points efficient for victory conditions.

 

The math support the following interpretation :

- Infiltrators are meant to be blobbed for a Turn 1 shoot and charge. With Captain + Lieutenant in Phobos armor, they have +108% damage per blob of similar points towards Intercessor, We're talking 25 models killing 17 MEQ in one round of shooting with the autowounds.

- Intercessors have a much lower damage rate (8.2 MEQ), but their blob is meatier with 36 models. Damage is for turn 1, single shot at range with Captain + Lieutenant Rerolls

 

Overall, the Infiltrators have much, much more burst damage early game being able to get in RF range and charge, at the expense of less models (the Helix dude is really token survivability, with 4 models saved over the course of the game for 2 of them).

 

The Intercessors have much, much more survivability, due to 30% more models per point. But since they can put shots down range and can't do more damage turn 1, they are not exposed to the same weight of return fire.

 

In short :

- Infiltrators are a glass cannon with MASSIVE alpha strike potential when blobbed. Gank > Tank with massive Alpha Strike.

- Intercessors are for players looking to play the full 5 turns with less damage output and significantly more survivability. Tank > Gank with better survivability and potential to use terrain, play for objectives.

 

Comparative lists :

- Shadowspear (Phobos Cpt + Lieutenant, 2 x 10 Infiltrators with Helix, 5 Infiltrators, ran in blob supported by : 6 Suppressors)

- Know No Fear (Cpt + Lieutenant, 3 x 10 Intercessors with Power Fists, 6 Intercessors with Power Fist, ran in blob supported by 3 Plasma Inceptors)

 

It's interesting to note that it seems that the Primaris boxes (KNF and Shadowspear) were designed the following :

- KNF : Troops with Good survivability and low damage, support units with massive firepower and low survivability

- Shadowspear : Troops with low survivability and massive damage, support units with medium firepower and medium survivability.

 

You can definitely mix and match both :

- Infiltrator blob with Inceptor or Hellblaster support for massive damage --> no tank all gank list

- Intercessor blob with Suppressor or Eliminator support for the ultimate grinding battle --> no gank all tank list

[Captain Idaho]

I'm sorry but 36 Intercessor Marines and 2 supporting characters is not efficient in the game especially killing anything bar basic infantry.

 

And with Beta Bolters, what need for the Rapid Fire of Infiltrators when you can get that from Intercessors at 30" range anyway?

 

Infiltrators having a massive Alpha Strike potential? Since when did we swap to the opinion that basic Bolters are great now?

 

Because if people think that then Tactical Marines with 2 specials per squad (go combi weapons) and a heavy weapon are much more dangerous...

[Subtleknife]

Yeah don't see the alpha strike potential of infiltrators personally. Sure you could blitz a guard squad or too with those numbers but you will still get mulched by the elite units next turn. They don't have the killing potential that is needed from a pure alpha strike force. I see them as either a great for screening deepstrike with two squads of 5 (if their points drop) or being able start to dominate the mid table for the first turn until your other squads arrive.

[Tamiel]

I'm sorry but 36 Intercessor Marines and 2 supporting characters is not efficient in the game especially killing anything bar basic infantry.

This is why powerfists are so underrated. With 30 intercessors and a captain in gravis armour, you are getting something like 12 power fist swings on a player-turn, assuming you don't use Honour the Chapter to double your captain's swings. I'm not even counting the 27*2 melee attacks from the non-sergeant intercessors, or the handful of power sword attacks the lieutenant brings. An intercessor blob with power fist sergeants can definitely deal with vehicles. 

 

Keep in mind, 30 intercessors, a captain in gravis, and a leuiteant is like, what, <700 points? If you want to see the true power of blue horde, with enough bolt rifles to delete anything that isn't wearing power armour off the table, and enough hidden powerfists to slug it out with knights (which by the way don't get invuln saves in melee), you can go up to something crazy like 70+ intercessors, captain in gravis armour, leuitenants, librarian. With that set up, you're also swimming in so much CP that you can use "Honour the Chapter" on your captain whenever you want, which gets insane value when combined with "Might of Heroes".

 

I hear a lot of people say that primaris don't have anti vehicle options. There's hardly any lascannons in the primaris range, but you have so many good platforms for power fists (which are 9 points this edition). I don't think Space Marines are meant to be this shooty army that basically operates like Imperial Guard in power armour. I think we're meant to shoot as we advance, taking out the screens or softening up the enemy, and then get in there and start swinging. I'm no pro player by any stretch of the imagination, but if you're playing Marines and your battle plan doesn't involve getting your characters into melee at some point, or if you want to just shoot from a safe distance, why not play Imperial Guard instead? 

 

In the words of Nick Navati "8E Space Marines are a character delivery force". (And in this regard, I consider intercessor sergeants with power fists to be mini-characters as well.)

 

Anyway, I got super off topic.

[Panzer]

12 Power fist swings spread out all over the board though. It's not like all your sergeants are in one unit or even in the same place like a proper melee unit.

 

GreyCrow always comes up with these fantastic revolutionary list design ideas which are only supported by his few tests but which fall flat in real competetive environments. The success of these lists usually results from overloading an all-comers list with a specific kind of target so is basically the same as an AM player rolling around with a full tank list. It's not really new and only works because the opponent isn't prepared to face such a list, not because it's actually good. ^^

(note that he actually talks about having 80% of your list in Troops and characters, so way more than just 36 Intercessors and two characters)

 

However I agree that in a Marine list the characters, mainly the Captain, are the ones doing the heavy lifting. My Primaris battleline is durable enough for me to decide where I want to send my Captains (not just Captain Smash). Whether it's because of Repulsors and Redemptors or because of 30+ Primaris infantry bodies is irrelevant even (last match my Tyranid opponent got stuck in my two Redemptors and some Intercessors so I could take out his big monsters with my Captains and the Repulsors Lascannons).

[GreyCrow]

I'm sorry but 36 Intercessor Marines and 2 supporting characters is not efficient in the game especially killing anything bar basic infantry.

 

With all due respect Idaho, I'd like you to run the math and reconsider. Or provide counter calculations.

 

With rerolls from the Chapter Master + Lieutenant and in Rapid Fire range or stationnery Beta Bolters, 36 Intercessors deal 12 unsaved wounds to a Predator, Armiger, Primarch.

 

They deal 6 unsaved wounds to an IK as well, T8 being their major weakness.

 

I don't know in what world we consider 'basic' Troops working together to kill a single vehicle a turn bad.

 

Please, do the math and it will tell a very different (and beneficial!) story that what you have in mind.

 

 

12 Power fist swings spread out all over the board though. It's not like all your sergeants are in one unit or even in the same place like a proper melee unit.

 

GreyCrow always comes up with these fantastic revolutionary list design ideas which are only supported by his few tests but which fall flat in real competetive environments.

 

Please feel free to read my post thoroughly and win a major tournaments before acting disrespectful. At least I'm doing the effort to provide math and calculations for the benefit of the rest of the readers rather than sharing unbacked evidence.

 

It would help the entire community if you did the same.

 

I said that you play the 36 as a blob. Seriously, desiring to spread out units accross the board is a common stupid idea. BRING THE OBJECTIVES CLOSER SO YOU DON'T HAVE TO MOVE AND THERE GOES THE BOARD CONTROL PROBLEM!

 

Like said in other topics, I'm always ready for a Vassal game to showcase my findings. I'm also getting ready for tournaments later this spring and summer, so even more practice would be welcome!

Seriously, I win, it's further data! I lose, it's new data to process and upgrade!

 

Nobody here is an unchallenged 40k winner with a 100% win rate, so let's all get down our collective high horses.

Perhaps it's easier to take solace in illusory knowledge. Personally, I prefer to challenge dogmas to either confirm or upgrade them, rather than defend them without question. Maybe I should play Chaos

[The Unseen]

Woohoo Greycrow, you spent nearly 1,000 points and 3 CP to barely kill a standard tank or walker. Or you could scratch a Knight. While being unable to take any objectives that aren't within walking distance of a massive blob of infantry.

 

I don't feel that putting half your armies points into semi-resilient but pathetically poor damage output units that you've attempted to patch up with reroll aura's from expensive characters with limited range on said aura's to be a viable tactic. Because if it was, IT WOULD BE WITH GUILLIMAN. Because that's what those lists literally are, and Gman does it better than a captain/chapter master and lieutenant ever could. And those lists are hitting top tables.