Intercessors redundant already?

[GreyCrow]

Woohoo Greycrow, you spent nearly 1,000 points and 3 CP to barely kill a standard tank or walker. Or you could scratch a Knight. While being unable to take any objectives that aren't within walking distance of a massive blob of infantry.

 

I don't feel that putting half your armies points into semi-resilient but pathetically poor damage output units that you've attempted to patch up with reroll aura's from expensive characters with limited range on said aura's to be a viable tactic. Because if it was, IT WOULD BE WITH GUILLIMAN. Because that's what those lists literally are, and Gman does it better than a captain/chapter master and lieutenant ever could. And those lists are hitting top tables.

 

Ah, so you think that the battle ends at killing a tank? I'm talking in 1 Turn, there are 4 more to go, genius. :P

 

And that was to Idaho's comment about not being able to damage anything but infantry. Which is mathematically proven wrong.

Idk what more to give you guys, it seems that you're set in a comfort zone of wrongness.

 

Do you just want to argue? Do you just want to complain and be right? 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

What is the rest of your army list Greycrow - I think your ideas have some merit. :)

[Ishagu]

I think 15 - 20 Intercessors is all you need.

 

More means you fall short in other areas.

 

You could try and bring in a lot of troops but they lack the utility of Guardsmen due to less movement.

Or you could bring in Hellblasters instead, keep the army looking thematic as you have Astartes bodies but also have more punch.

[GreyCrow]

What is the rest of your army list Greycrow - I think your ideas have some merit.

 

That was at 1000pts, so only a single Inceptor squad with 3 Plasma. Held in Deep Strike, unleashed at 1 critical moment. (Usually counter Deep Strike).

 

I'll be trying a more conventional bataillon soon with 30 Intercessors and 5 Inceptors. Still a blob, but a smaller one, trading in more damage.

TBH, I was not falling short on the damage department, so 180pts of Fire Support can be enough.

 

With the 30 Intercessors at 1k pts, you are freeing up just under 300pts so you can pretty much run a good chunk of everything, like 9 Hellblasters, 8 Aggressors, 14 Reivers (hard to play, they're mostly a speedbump/more meat rather than a good damage dealing unit), etc.

 

A typical 2k pts list would be:

- 2 Captains, 2 Lieutenants

- 60 Intercessors with Power Fists (ran in 2 blobs)

- 5 Inceptors

- 9 Hellblasters

 

Good spirit to try new things! 

[Captain Idaho]

I'd like to see that list do well. And definitely would like to read people's results regardless. Maybe we can give advice in the appropriated topic to getting it to work? (I took Honour Guard knowing they weren't the best but worked well if used correctly and I enjoyed the challenge)

[Hellebras]

I think GreyCrow's idea has merit. I run a lot of Intercessors right now (my typical 2000 point list has 40, though I expect I'll be dropping the backfield combat squads for Eliminators), and they're one of the only parts of the list that I'm really satisfied with in performance. I wouldn't try it competitively, but moving 20 forward with a Captain and Lieutenant has done passably well in my fairly soft meta. I've actually not had much cause to complain about their damage output, especially with a big unit for Rapid Fire, Bolter Drill, and the beta bolter rule.

[Prot]

I like the idea. Guilliman knows I’ve tried it. But the times where you get matched up against something that is extremely... anti Intercessors, it can be extremely taxing to lose that many models in a turn.

 

I’ve gone from 20 in my Indomintus Crusader lists down to 10. In part that’s because I like some toys, and I’m making room for the Vanguard in my lists.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I like the list and think it can be refined. Plasma Inceptors are so good - I ran a five man squad when I was playing Ultramarines.

[Lemondish]

I'm sorry but 36 Intercessor Marines and 2 supporting characters is not efficient in the game especially killing anything bar basic infantry.

 

And with Beta Bolters, what need for the Rapid Fire of Infiltrators when you can get that from Intercessors at 30" range anyway?

 

Infiltrators having a massive Alpha Strike potential? Since when did we swap to the opinion that basic Bolters are great now?

 

Because if people think that then Tactical Marines with 2 specials per squad (go combi weapons) and a heavy weapon are much more dangerous...

I realize your post was a specific response to a hypothetical plan, but it was the best one to take as an example.

 

Look, I'm the first to admit Infiltrators are far from perfect due entirely to their current cost...

 

But there are many more things a unit can bring to the table than simply killing power. Infiltrators are a prime example of this - just as Infantry Squads aren't taken for their ability to kill, so too will Infiltrators be considered not for their capacity to deal damage but for the tactical benefits that their special rules provide.

 

Once again, I'm not saying those benefits are worth their current points cost, but they aren't nearly as worthless as this single minded focus on their damage might have you believe.

[Minsc]

10 Intercessors is 60 points less than 10 Infiltrators with an "apothecary", and I'd argue that they have a better default gun as well, at least most of the time.

 

Infiltrators can probably shake up a deep-strike heavy meta, but in general I'd say they're quite overpriced.
A unit of 10 needs to come down to 200 points before I'd even consider them as replacements to Intercessors.

 

[Captain Idaho]

Hey I'm the 1st person to build an army that doesn't crunch numbers and play Killhammer and I get that folk have bought into Primaris in much the same way as I bought into my own army. We want our collection to be well supported and successful. I get it.

 

But the abilities of Infiltrators is anything bar a niche bonus.

[The Unseen]

 

I'm sorry but 36 Intercessor Marines and 2 supporting characters is not efficient in the game especially killing anything bar basic infantry.

 

And with Beta Bolters, what need for the Rapid Fire of Infiltrators when you can get that from Intercessors at 30" range anyway?

 

Infiltrators having a massive Alpha Strike potential? Since when did we swap to the opinion that basic Bolters are great now?

 

Because if people think that then Tactical Marines with 2 specials per squad (go combi weapons) and a heavy weapon are much more dangerous...

I realize your post was a specific response to a hypothetical plan, but it was the best one to take as an example.

 

Look, I'm the first to admit Infiltrators are far from perfect due entirely to their current cost...

 

But there are many more things a unit can bring to the table than simply killing power. Infiltrators are a prime example of this - just as Infantry Squads aren't taken for their ability to kill, so too will Infiltrators be considered not for their capacity to deal damage but for the tactical benefits that their special rules provide.

 

Once again, I'm not saying those benefits are worth their current points cost, but they aren't nearly as worthless as this single minded focus on their damage might have you believe.

It's not single minded, it's just that those "tactical" benefits are either mediocre, ex smoke grenades, mini apothecary, or are pushing an alpha strike style of use, with auto wounding on to-hit rolls and infiltration, but they can't actually back up in any real sense, because theyre vastly over priced on top of having crap damage output and nothing else going for them.

 

Despite what a lot of people apparently think, 40k isn't a complicated or deep tactical game. There are plenty of other games that reward unconventional tactics and thinking, but in 40k, the game can actually be reduced to 2 armies basically smacking into each other if piloted by 2 players who both have nothing more than a solid grasp of the rules, especially in an eternal war format game, where all that matters is whos alive at the end.

Maelstrom games can break that up to an extent, but any 40k game can be won just by killing the opponent faster than they can kill you, while making sure your standing on some objectives at the same time.

 

I would absolutely love as an opponent for someone to just drop 40 mildly tough poor damage dealing infantry on my front door step turn 1, even if I'm going 2nd.

Because then I don't even have to wait till turn 2 to start killing them, and I know they won't be contesting any objectives anywhere else on the table.

 

And your trying to compare these guys to infantry squads?

Haha

Those guys are *actually* incredibly killy on a points effeciency standpoint, along with ridiculously effecient for the number of wounds they can pack around, are better deep strike denial units than infiltraters because of having roughly 4 times as many bodies to scatter around, all while netting you a lot more CP for the points.

 

If any unit in 40k is brought for utility purposes rather than damage, it's the damn guard infantry squad, and they aren't bad at the damage dealing either.

[GreyCrow]

For the sake of the discussion, let’s use math to support any “overpriced” and “underpriced” statements.

 

I see a lot of preference talk and few actual research.

Preference is fine for preference talk, but it’s not use in objective reasons.

 

Re the Guard Squad, yes they are incredibly killy for their points value due to weight of numbers.

It’s up to the table gameplay to make sure the Guard blobs can’t put all their firepower to your smaller squad.

Basic funneling tactics since the Spartans at Thermopylae, and probably before.

 

I think we will need some kind of visual representation to back up talks !

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I think that you should make a new thread for that discussion GreyCrow.

 

I think this topic was settled with the point cost of infiltrators.

[HighMarshalAmp]

I think that you should make a new thread for that discussion GreyCrow.

 

I think this topic was settled with the point cost of infiltrators.

I second both points.

 

Also, thanks y'all :)

[Captain Idaho]

On the topic of Infiltrators... We don't need number crunching to see their problems:

 

1) very average killing potential.

 

2) Expensive points (even at reduced points of Intercessors).

 

So we cross reference these issues with what the unit might do on the table and for the list:

 

A. Build a Battalion/fill out Force Organisation slots.

 

B. Provide an Alpha Strike capacity.

 

C. Hold objectives early.

 

D. Act as a screen.

 

E. Be used for killing potential.

 

When you break it down like that, you can see that Infiltrators are distinctly average and a little lost in the list:

 

- There are cheaper ways of filling force organisation slots.

- There are cheaper ways of providing a screen even if these models do it quite well with regards to their deep strike disruption.

- There are loads of more powerful options in the Troops section for killing potential. Even Scouts snipers and a Heavy Bolter will provide better performance than Infiltrators. Intercessor squads have the same survivability but superior killing power.

- Holding objectives early is actually their best role. Caveats apply.

 

As you can see, there's little reason to take Infiltrators. Plonking 5 on an objective isn't much different to Scouts though. Presuming Infiltrators come down in points you can still use the Scouts for cheaper and not lose as much when the opponent decides to push you off the objective.

 

Because, since when were 10 power armour wounds that hard to deal with? Especially with multi wound weapons being so common place.

[Captain Idaho]

I think the best reason to play Infiltrators is because the models are great. Let's just not kid ourselves over the rules. ;)

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I think the best reason to play Infiltrators is because the models are great. Let's just not kid ourselves over the rules. ;)

Great point

[Marshal Reinhard]

I think the best reason to play Infiltrators is because the models are great. Let's just not kid ourselves over the rules.

 

The weakness of the rules also comes down to the univariate problem of too high points cost.

[Ishagu]

The point cost is the only real weakness.

As long as the troops can get objectives, get around the board and engage with other light infantry of the same role all is good.

 

I don't care about them killing some high profile target - I'd much rather have dedicated units for that. It's how Eldar do it, and Eldar are the best lol

 

In fact I really don't understand any complaint beyond the cost. Yes, they should be cheaper. This boxset was very likely published before CA2018. It's not a matter of IF they drop, it's only a matter of WHEN.

[Captain Idaho]

The complaint is the cost of Infiltrators, even if reduced to Intercessor value, will be too expensive for what they can do compared to what other units can do. Why take this unit when you can take Intercessors? Because you want to push units that deep strike turn 2 or 3 a further 3"?

 

That's not worth superior Intercessors. Or cheaper Scouts.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I can’t wait to play Infiltrators to be honest. I can see so many applications for them .

[Ishagu]

The complaint is the cost of Infiltrators, even if reduced to Intercessor value, will be too expensive for what they can do compared to what other units can do. Why take this unit when you can take Intercessors? Because you want to push units that deep strike turn 2 or 3 a further 3"?

 

That's not worth superior Intercessors. Or cheaper Scouts.

They would function like hardier Scouts with a bigger anti reserves bubble. That's perfectly fine.

[GreyCrow]

Captain, number crunching is not based on need. It’s THE crucial part of the game ;)

 

It’s like saying : there is air around, no need to breathe!

 

You are right about the cool factor of the models in the box though! They are pretty awesome even though I personally find the suppressors a bit awkward.

[War Angel]

I feel like it should be mentioned, scouts are inferior to tactical marines only in the loss of an armor save, they can still deal the same damage (unless you count special weapons) because infiltrators do not have the same damage or range as the intercessor, I'm really getting depressed about them.