BSB Speculation

[tvih]

 

As for Argent Shroud - it's straightforward, bold, and I like it very much. I like the idea of extremely mobile and accurate Retributors. 

4+ is not THAT accurate, but of course better than ye ole snapshots :) Certainly makes for a mobile force. It'll work nicely indeed for multi-melta retris with the range increase stratagem, too bad I only have one multimelta for my Argent Shroud so far.

 

As I mused in my own thread about just last night, so far they haven't mentioned cross-order lists removing any benefits as far as I've noticed. But I guess we'll have to wait for the full codex to be sure.

[taikishi]

 

OooML - damned if they do (you get 1 MD) damned if they dont (iether you get +1 to hit or your unit is untouched)

 

Indomibale belief ... makes it a bit less of a stapled gunline WLT... 

 

Am I reading that right, OooML characters give 2 MD when killed?

 

Litanies giving you 1 reroll on a MD per turn is nice, assuming they mean I get 1 reroll on my turn and 1 reroll pm your turn.

I think they would have said 1 per battle round if they didn't mean that.

 

I know we have the hospitaler, and in the past we have had other ways of healing / reviving models.

I wounder what other ways we are going to have for that now.

 

 

You're reading it right, but I refer back to my comment yesterday about oldL5R and Yu.

 

Is it flavorful? Absolutely. But if you somehow lose 3 units in one phase, you still only get 1 Miracle die.

 

Lemondish: the problem with large units is Morale. Based on Index and Beta-Dex, the only ways Sisters have to mitigate morale are:

* spend CP once per turn to auto-pass

* an Act of Faith that may not even exist anymore and is limited to once per turn

* bring an Inquisitor and even that isn't stellar

* (IIRC) bring Dialogi, who don't have an Order themselves

* play Sacred Rose as your Order Conviction

 

They chew up enough of the unit, you're losing the rest in the Morale Phase

[taikishi]

 

 

As for Argent Shroud - it's straightforward, bold, and I like it very much. I like the idea of extremely mobile and accurate Retributors. 

4+ is not THAT accurate, but of course better than ye ole snapshots Certainly makes for a mobile force. It'll work nicely indeed for multi-melta retris with the range increase stratagem, too bad I only have one multimelta for my Argent Shroud so far.

 

As I mused in my own thread about just last night, so far they haven't mentioned cross-order lists removing any benefits as far as I've noticed. But I guess we'll have to wait for the full codex to be sure.

 

 

Why would they remove the benefits of multi-order lists? A Marine army can contain Blood Angels, Raven Guard and Iron Hands and still keep Chapter Tactics and Combat Doctrines even though Blood Angels currently can't use them.

[Lemondish]

 

 

 

 

OooML - damned if they do (you get 1 MD) damned if they dont (iether you get +1 to hit or your unit is untouched)

 

Indomibale belief ... makes it a bit less of a stapled gunline WLT...

Am I reading that right, OooML characters give 2 MD when killed?

 

Litanies giving you 1 reroll on a MD per turn is nice, assuming they mean I get 1 reroll on my turn and 1 reroll pm your turn.

I think they would have said 1 per battle round if they didn't mean that.

 

I know we have the hospitaler, and in the past we have had other ways of healing / reviving models.

I wounder what other ways we are going to have for that now.

You're reading it right, but I refer back to my comment yesterday about oldL5R and Yu.

 

Is it flavorful? Absolutely. But if you somehow lose 3 units in one phase, you still only get 1 Miracle die.

 

Lemondish: the problem with large units is Morale. Based on Index and Beta-Dex, the only ways Sisters have to mitigate morale are:

* spend CP once per turn to auto-pass

* an Act of Faith that may not even exist anymore and is limited to once per turn

* bring an Inquisitor and even that isn't stellar

* (IIRC) bring Dialogi, who don't have an Order themselves

* play Sacred Rose as your Order Conviction

 

They chew up enough of the unit, you're losing the rest in the Morale Phase

Which you then gain miracle dice to use to either mitigate morale yourself or spend on things that aren't your baseline troops. Seems more pro than con to me.

[Purifying Tempest]

Argent Shroud has assault Heavy Flamers and crazy ranged Multi-meltas?  I also see Heavy Bolters getting some love - hitting on 2s, rerolling 1s because you have a character nearby.  It is pricey at 2 CP, but looks pretty solid... better than a lot of the things in the CA codex :)

 

A Rhino/Immolator box of Retributors with Heavy Flamers seems like a lot less of a trap, now, but will probably still be one.

[CaptainMarsh]

I ran large squads of BSS anyway and found good success with them, so OooML works well with how I personally play.

[Purifying Tempest]

I ran large squads of BSS anyway and found good success with them, so OooML works well with how I personally play.

 

Wouldn't you want to min OooML for the extra MD?  Typically, once a unit is targeted, it is usually given enough attention to remove or cripple it.

 

I guess there may be a game or two where you can take advantage of someone for peppering the squads with incidental fire, but typically, once a squad has put itself in a position to be a problem... the opponent will make sure that it is no longer one.

 

I would run small BSS squads for MD and scoring, and then larger specialist squads to protect the high-cost weapons and apply that +1 to hit when hurt across a nastier array of weaponry.  I wouldn't use OooML to run "big sister blobs", though.

[CaptainMarsh]

Large squads of Sisters, especially in cover, aren't that easy to remove with the majority of anti-infantry weaponry. There are certainly edge cases of course when you have armies with mass AP-2 shots especially, but those are the exceptions (Combat Doctrines have certainly thrown that element into chaos, to an extent). It tends to work well for how I play (which for most of my armies is flood the board with troops, kill other troops, secure objectives). OooML's strength comes from the fact it benefits MSU for MD generation and larger squads for survivors having +1 to hit for the rest of the game.

[Commander Dawnstar]

So Vessel of the Emperor's Will ...

 

Acts of Faith are still in the book in some form then?

Edited November 14, 2019 by Commander Dawnstar

[taikishi]

 

 

 

OooML - damned if they do (you get 1 MD) damned if they dont (iether you get +1 to hit or your unit is untouched)

 

Indomibale belief ... makes it a bit less of a stapled gunline WLT...

Am I reading that right, OooML characters give 2 MD when killed?

 

Litanies giving you 1 reroll on a MD per turn is nice, assuming they mean I get 1 reroll on my turn and 1 reroll pm your turn.

I think they would have said 1 per battle round if they didn't mean that.

 

I know we have the hospitaler, and in the past we have had other ways of healing / reviving models.

I wounder what other ways we are going to have for that now.

You're reading it right, but I refer back to my comment yesterday about oldL5R and Yu.

 

Is it flavorful? Absolutely. But if you somehow lose 3 units in one phase, you still only get 1 Miracle die.

 

Lemondish: the problem with large units is Morale. Based on Index and Beta-Dex, the only ways Sisters have to mitigate morale are:

* spend CP once per turn to auto-pass

* an Act of Faith that may not even exist anymore and is limited to once per turn

* bring an Inquisitor and even that isn't stellar

* (IIRC) bring Dialogi, who don't have an Order themselves

* play Sacred Rose as your Order Conviction

 

They chew up enough of the unit, you're losing the rest in the Morale Phase

Which you then gain miracle dice to use to either mitigate morale yourself or spend on things that aren't your baseline troops. Seems more pro than con to me.

 

 

Honestly, it really comes down to "what are you losing to gain this resource".

 

Larger units mean fewer means of gaining MD through OooML despite the additional resiliency. In a weird way, it also further increases your odds of losing a unit to Morale instead of it being eliminated by shooting/melee/psychic powers, and since units destroyed in the Morale phase don't generate MD a better argument could be made for small or medium (but not necessarily min-sized) units that your opponent can't rely on finishing off from morale. They're now either (hopefully) dedicating multiple units to pick off a single Battle Sister squad or risking you not failing that morale test and giving the survivors a bonus. Small squads also mean more opportunities for generating MD, though I'm sure there's a critical point since you're still limited to 1 per phase from the Conviction (or 2 per phase if it's a character).

 

I don't have a lot of time right now, but I really want to look at the numbers on this. My gut is telling me the +1 isn't worth the models you've lost but I want to see the probabilities before I believe it.

Edited November 14, 2019 by taikishi

[CaptainMarsh]

So Vessel of the Emperor's Will ...

 

Acts of Faith are still in the book in some form then?

Based on what we can infer, the act of using a Miracle Dice is an Act of Faith.

[Commander Dawnstar]

So you spend a Miracle Die to benefit a character, then spend a CP to regain a Miracle Die?

[CaptainMarsh]

Based on my reading, yes. You essentially spend a CP to get that MD back. Effectively  it is a re-roll with a known result (the dice being spent) and a replacement that is unknown until rolled.

[tvih]

 

 

Why would they remove the benefits of multi-order lists? A Marine army can contain Blood Angels, Raven Guard and Iron Hands and still keep Chapter Tactics and Combat Doctrines even though Blood Angels currently can't use them.

They can't use the "Super Doctrines" from the supplements in such a list though. Granted, it's unlikely Sisters will get Order Supplements - I hope not in that there are too Emperor-damned many rulebooks as it is - but that being the case I wouldn't put it past them to put such a limitation in the main Codex itself. I hope they don't, obviously. Bad enough my "blood-related" BT and CF armies most likely can't keep their Super Doctrines working together, so now I really have to make full-flegded solo lists for both.

[taikishi]

That's my interpretation as well, and I feel like CP are more valuable than MD.

[ERJAK]

 

Why would they remove the benefits of multi-order lists? A Marine army can contain Blood Angels, Raven Guard and Iron Hands and still keep Chapter Tactics and Combat Doctrines even though Blood Angels currently can't use them.

 

They can't use the "Super Doctrines" from the supplements in such a list though. Granted, it's unlikely Sisters will get Order Supplements - I hope not in that there are too Emperor-damned many rulebooks as it is - but that being the case I wouldn't put it past them to put such a limitation in the main Codex itself. I hope they don't, obviously. Bad enough my "blood-related" BT and CF armies most likely can't keep their Super Doctrines working together, so now I really have to make full-flegded solo lists for both.

We don't have superdoctrines so I can't see losing anything for mixing cts. Infact, so far it looks like the army is designed to work around muliple CTs supporting each other. OoML and Argent Shroud synergize very well, actually.

[Purifying Tempest]

Yeah, that MD stratagem kind of confused me a bit, too.

 

"You just spent a MD on this character... probably to save out on using a CP for a botched roll.  Would you like to spend a CP to get that MD back, probably on a different face?"

 

Don't get me wrong, MD are good... but are they the same value, 1-for-1, as a CP?  I really don't think so... but I could also be mistaken.  Now if it was "spend 1 MD and a CP, get 2 MD back" I MAY be enticed to roll some dice... or even if it was roll 3, pick one.  But straight 1-for-1 seems like a ... dubious decision :)

[ERJAK]

That's my interpretation as well, and I feel like CP are more valuable than MD.

It's a nice option to have for hypercritical situations though, example:

 

You're playing maestrom, it's the final turn and you're tied and you need a 5 or 6 run roll to get enough battle sisters on an objective to steal it and win the game, your only MD is a 2. You also have 2CP left.

 

Thanks to this strat you now have 3 chances to get that 5 you needed instead of only 2. Miracle dice, roll, reroll.

 

It's not always going to matter and you'll rarely use it in practice but the option to hyper invest in a critical roll will occasionally win you tight games.

[CaptainMarsh]

The Strategem would be better if it allowed you to pick the result of the MD you generate, but oh well. It has its uses. The CP is gonna be more useful most of the time but it certainly is a Strategem with its uses.

[Purifying Tempest]

I guess you could change out a MD 2 to auto-hit a Canoness hit roll and then spend a CP to hopefully have that spent 2 come back as something better.

 

It isn't totally bad... right?

[tvih]

OooML units where their Conviction gets triggered can also benefit from MD die value of 2, so could have some use for special weapons and the like. That Conviction does potentially get more use out of that particular die value for that reason. Still, it is a case of losing models to get any benefits.

[ERJAK]

OooML units where their Conviction gets triggered can also benefit from MD die value of 2, so could have some use for special weapons and the like. That Conviction does potentially get more use out of that particular die value for that reason. Still, it is a case of losing models to get any benefits.

That's gonna be a bit of a theme.

 

My hope is that hospitallers and battle sanctums have relatively effecient ressurection option. Not, on a 4+ maybe 1.

[Happy-inquisitor]

OooML units where their Conviction gets triggered can also benefit from MD die value of 2, so could have some use for special weapons and the like. That Conviction does potentially get more use out of that particular die value for that reason. Still, it is a case of losing models to get any benefits.

 

True but you are going to lose models anyway. I like the way that can mess with the mind of an opponent

 

Do you fully wipe units and gift your opponent additional MD?

Do you spread your damage out across units leaving multiple units having +1 to hit?

 

In ITC missions it gets even harder as you try to maintain a good pace of removing units to maximise kill/kill more. Anything that makes your opponent have to double-think their target priorities has a chance of getting them to make  a mistake to your advantage. 

 

But still you are always going to lose models in a game so gaining benefits from something that is always going to happen and is only conditional on you not having a complete walk-over is good.

[ERJAK]

 

OooML units where their Conviction gets triggered can also benefit from MD die value of 2, so could have some use for special weapons and the like. That Conviction does potentially get more use out of that particular die value for that reason. Still, it is a case of losing models to get any benefits.

 

 

True but you are going to lose models anyway. I like the way that can mess with the mind of an opponent

 

Do you fully wipe units and gift your opponent additional MD?

Do you spread your damage out across units leaving multiple units having +1 to hit?

 

In ITC missions it gets even harder as you try to maintain a good pace of removing units to maximise kill/kill more. Anything that makes your opponent have to double-think their target priorities has a chance of getting them to make  a mistake to your advantage. 

 

But still you are always going to lose models in a game so gaining benefits from something that is always going to happen and is only conditional on you not having a complete walk-over is good.

In practice, you'll fully wipe out SoB units most of the time, regardless. It doesn't take much.

[Slasher956]

Anyone thinking of not trying to pre order the box due to GWs stance on,'we don't think there'll be enough for every preorder.. 'and just waiting for the rules to appear on line before getting the codex next year?