Discussion on the new C:SM & Possible BT supplement

[Marshal Rohr]

I am not enthused with Jes' attitude towards thematic space marines. He mentions the Crusading, and lanterns, and candles as one of the things that players can do to their models, which leads me to believe the days of Tabards, alternate helmets, and accoutrements is over. 

[Medjugorje]

I am not enthused with Jes' attitude towards thematic space marines. He mentions the Crusading, and lanterns, and candles as one of the things that players can do to their models, which leads me to believe the days of Tabards, alternate helmets, and accoutrements is over. 

what do you mean exactly? On which statement based?

[Marshal Rohr]

In his voxcasts. He talks about how the Primaris are intended to be Blank Canvases the player can add onto. He also laments how blinged up kits becames. Plastic tabards and lanterns and chains fall into the category I think he is referencing. 

[Ciler]

Squatted is not a realistic alternative. But there's a wealth of alternatives between that and getting our own codex supplement (Though we all know we should get one)

How so ? I mean, no supplement means no special characters nor special rules, unless they are all in the base book which defies the purpose.

[Sete]

 

Squatted is not a realistic alternative. But there's a wealth of alternatives between that and getting our own codex supplement (Though we all know we should get one)

How so ? I mean, no supplement means no special characters nor special rules, unless they are all in the base book which defies the purpose.

We dont know how this is going down.

Several things can happen.

We could have a supplement with sprue and models, we can be in the IF one with or without sprue and models.

 

We gotta wait, or someone will leak something. I hate it too.

[Marshal Reinhard]

 

Squatted is not a realistic alternative. But there's a wealth of alternatives between that and getting our own codex supplement (Though we all know we should get one)

How so ? I mean, no supplement means no special characters nor special rules, unless they are all in the base book which defies the purpose.

 

 

Between squatted there's getting a spot in the IF supplement, there's getting a mini index in white dwarf like BR, there's not getting anything and just remaining as we are, there's.... etc

 

Squatted is on the extreme end.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I think you're misinterpreting Jes a little. I need to relisted to what he said.

[CommodusXIII]

In his voxcasts. He talks about how the Primaris are intended to be Blank Canvases the player can add onto. He also laments how blinged up kits becames. Plastic tabards and lanterns and chains fall into the category I think he is referencing. 

 

I think that you're being overly pessimistic.  The kits themselves are relatively unadorned, yes.  There are also upgrade sprues on the side that you can use, or not.  They continue to release new upgrade sprues so this trend is likely to continue.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

In his voxcasts. He talks about how the Primaris are intended to be Blank Canvases the player can add onto. He also laments how blinged up kits becames. Plastic tabards and lanterns and chains fall into the category I think he is referencing. 

 

I think that you're being overly pessimistic.  The kits themselves are relatively unadorned, yes.  There are also upgrade sprues on the side that you can use, or not.  They continue to release new upgrade sprues so this trend is likely to continue.

 

 

Not a single one has been anything but shoulder pads and a handful of thematic parts. None of them have been full torso or shin replacements. None of them have certainly including the volume of parts as the oldmarine Templar Sprue. 

[Acebaur]

Guys we obviously haven't been squatted. We have CT in the new book. Either one of two things will happen. We will be in the IF supplement or get our own. Either way we'll still have all the things we do now plus maybe more.

[CommodusXIII]

Not a single one has been anything but shoulder pads and a handful of thematic parts. None of them have been full torso or shin replacements. None of them have certainly including the volume of parts as the oldmarine Templar Sprue.

So is the argument now that there won't be as large a variety in BT detail bits, rather than no bits at all? That's moving the goalpost.

 

"The days of Tabards, alternate helmets, and accoutrements is over." Every upgrade sprue so far has alternate helmets and accoutrements. The Space Wolves have tail pelts, the Blood Angels have vials, the Imperial Fists have working tools - it stands to reason that tabards and lanterns would fit just as well.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

Not a single one has been anything but shoulder pads and a handful of thematic parts. None of them have been full torso or shin replacements. None of them have certainly including the volume of parts as the oldmarine Templar Sprue.

So is the argument now that there won't be as large a variety in BT detail bits, rather than no bits at all? That's moving the goalpost.

 

"The days of Tabards, alternate helmets, and accoutrements is over." Every upgrade sprue so far has alternate helmets and accoutrements. The Space Wolves have tail pelts, the Blood Angels have vials, the Imperial Fists have working tools - it stands to reason that tabards and lanterns would fit just as well.

 

 

It's not moving the goal post. There have been several new upgrade kits. None are like the old one. If you didn't understand that I was referencing the Templar upgrade kit that was released with the 4th Edition Codex, whatever, I wasn't being precise. But now that you know I am referencing the old upgrade kit that came with enough parts to equip 5 marines with new torsos, helmets, and shoulder pads being gone and we can only look forward to the smaller upgrade kits we've seen it wont be easy to buy two boxes of upgrades and make ten templars entirely in templar specific gear. 

[Medjugorje]

Guys we obviously haven't been squatted. We have CT in the new book. Either one of two things will happen. We will be in the IF supplement or get our own. Either way we'll still have all the things we do now plus maybe more.

 

no... there are a few things that can happen

 

1. at any time we get our own codex

2. at any time we get our own supplement

3. we are a big part in the Imperial Fists / Sons of Dorn / Last Wall Supplement

4. we just get a small part in this IF Supplement

a ) the additional rules are very nice

b ) or the additional rules change nothing

5. we ar NOT in this IF Supplement

a) and get a WD treatment and  its good

b ) or get a WD treatment and it not enough

c) or not

 

Because each of this 5 options is possible - its so important to get good rules in this codex. If not, we are on the same position like before -->  hoping on better rules and then getting disappointed if point 4 or 5 happen. And if we dont get a commitment by GW - I always expect 4b or 5bc.... Because it used to be so in last time... Even our Vigilus detachment was just okay for me, not GOOD.

 

I want to be far better in close combat then other chapters... means i want to have a good CC Stratagem or better lithanies of battle for our chaplains/ especially Grimaldus. Maybe good Relics and Warlord Traits....

[Brother Tyler]

No, the rules/content for the Black Templars come down to a few options. We already know that the Black Templars will be included in the upcoming Codex: Space Marines, so the variations are about additional material (focusing on the rules, since background can come at any time in a variety of sources):

• Additional content for the Black Templars will be in the Imperial Fists supplement
• Additional content for the Black Templars will be in an Index Astartes article
• There will be no additional content for the Black Templars

Then we have the quantitative aspect [of the rules], though it gets a bit more subjective there (lots of desires/expectations varying with individuals):

• The rules (Chapter Tactics, units, relics, strategems, etc.) will be of a quantity that roughly corresponds with the established lore for the Chapter
• The rules will be reduced from what reasonable fans expect for the Black Templars

Then we have the qualitative aspect [of the rules], though this will be even more subjective than the quantitative aspect:

• The rules will allow the Black Templars to be in the upper tier range of competitiveness.
• The rules will put the Black Templars in the middle tier range of competitiveness.
• The rules will put the Black Templars in the lower tier range of competitiveness.

And all of the above is a simplification of what is actually going to be much more complex, especially when you compare the diverse range of players' views on and expectations for the Chapter.

 

Add on to all of that the background material, including history, iconography, crusades, etc. (and I don't want to even go into the variations possible there, suffice to say that at a minimum, it is desirable that the Black Templars get coverage that is equal to the "First Founding" Chapters (and other big name Second Founding Chapters such as the Crimson Fists and Flesh Tearers).

[Medjugorje]

call it like you want to... 

 

But if the rules Templars in this book are bad ( the chapter tactic is okay - but other chapters are on equal level in CC at the moment)...

It would be annoying if others perform as good as we do - but in the shooting phase they are so much better...

I like the new one - but just if there are good stratagems and relics...

 

I´ve hoped this chapter tactic would be like it is + Grimaldus special rule (as aquivalent to the new CT of the IF and CF) or another additional Melee-buff. If there are great NEW tools with Grimaldus, Relics, Stratagems - the chapter tactic is great. If not - nothing would have changed and I would have to wait on a supplement ( while i dont know if there is one - like i ever used to wait on new rules and get disappointed in the last few years)

[MegaVolt87]

If the chaplin re-work is like the dark apostle one, you guys would be sitting much better. 

[Sword Brother Adelard]

The problem is Medj, is that you are never happy. Every time we get a buff, you moan about it incessantly. Vigilus was a straight up uncalled for buff for our chapter. We had no right to get a specialist detachment when our fluff involvement was so minimal, yet we did. AND we got access to the Indomitus Crusaders detachment and the assault buff that provided.

 

Yet still you moaned and whined about how GW always forget us. They don't. We aren't being forgotten, and we can be almost certain we will have a presence in one supplement or another.

[Medjugorje]

Are you certain? I am not.  We will see how the Codex will be... but thats how it is. I want my Templars so that the same melee list should be visible better with BT(or WS) chapter tactic like a shooty list should be better as IF... 

And thats the point. I compare it with all other Marines. I think I will have fun with my Black Templars as I had previous ( with the exception that there were many matches the winner was known before the battle started).

 

(And  I seems that I am more sceptical as I am in reality....  I am positive about this release yet....) And Vigilus was a buff - but could be so much better ( you know how less important 5 man squads are in combat)

 

EDIT: last times I never said they forget us, they IGNORE us because the new marketing strategy prefer FF chapters

[Sword Brother Adelard]

They literally named a paint after us! We had key characters in the story lines for the end of the 41st Millennium and pivotal roles in the entire war of the beast series.

 

We have never been 'ignored'. We've been continuously mentioned in the Conquest Magazine, got a mention in the Imperial Knights codex, got a massive role in ADB's black legion and in the Spears of the Emperor.

 

If you want to talk about being ignored, look at the Iron Hands!

 

Edit: I also forgot to mention that so far all of the IA rule sets in WD have been for second or later founding chapters.

[Medjugorje]

 

If you want to talk about being ignored, look at the Iron Hands!

 

Edit: I also forgot to mention that so far all of the IA rule sets in WD have been for second or later founding chapters.

 

Sorry- thats the part i always talk about. GW made it that you think IH deserve that... but they dont even have that history, we used to have and they get whatever their proportion (in the fanbase) is. We used to have a big fanbase because of our theme.... If you are a first founding chapter or not shouldn´t be in our mind.  Look how many posts are in our subforum. That means we should be always number 2 after Ultramarines... but we dont get our own Supplement...

 

BTW... didnt read emperors spears novel... what happen in the Black Templar part - what are they doing there?

[Marshal Reinhard]

I am of the unpopular(?) opinion that Templars are both Stabby AND Shooty. Templars choose for themselves with what means they desroy the Emperor's foes. It's why you get to choose wether each initiate has a bolter or bolt pistol & chainsword in a crusader squad, instead of everyone being all bolt pistol & chainsword, all the time.

 

That said I'm obviously not blind to the greater prestige and honour the Templars ascribe to glorious hand to hand combat. It's how Sigismund carved out his name. I know all this, but even so I've never viewed Templars as a pure close combat army. I've never seen them as raging frothing lunatics who only think of charging forward either. Theirs is a cold, calculated hatred, where the enemy is destroyed with righteous prejudice and holy bolter fire, before at last the battle is joined with hand to hand. Prudent when need be, daring and bold when that is called for.

 

That said, I think it's pretty close to unforgivable that there are no proper CC primaris units yet, from that perspective I think it was a mistake that wave 2.0 was phobos instead of what I hope (without real justification) wave 3.0 will be, both heavier armor and close combat.

 

I'm far from without sympathy for those who feel suffocated in the current climate, but I've obviously managed breathe under the circumstances myself.

 

I just really really hope 3.0 isn't years away

[Medjugorje]

 

 

I just really really hope 3.0 isn't years away

I dont want to give the impression that i dont like the release yet...  The hype adrenalin is away that was there at the start of GW´s announcement. There is just a bit attention now... 

[CaptainMarsh]

A lot will come down to how/if Reivers are updated datasheet wise. If their combat blades still gave them an extra attack and had AP-1, then they'd be a rather excellent CC unit.

[Marshal Reinhard]

While not invalid, a lot of Templars don't jive as well with Reivers because they feel more like a terror unit fitting of ravenguard or even night lords, more than the space knights we want.

 

Them being strengthened potentially can only be a good thing thiough

[Medjugorje]

A lot will come down to how/if Reivers are updated datasheet wise. If their combat blades still gave them an extra attack and had AP-1, then they'd be a rather excellent CC unit.

except against Salamanders^^