Iron Hands nerf?

[brÖtherIrön]

 

I still think people are too lazy to point out what Raven Guard, Scars, Ultras and in the next time Fists and Salamanders are better at.

 

No, it's just that the things they're better at are more niche: Iron Hands have a heavy punch right off the bat, and they just keep doing it. White Scars can do a lot of damage in melee, and are good at getting there; Iron Hands do that damage output from 36" away, and they do it better. Ultramarines do Aggressors better...and uh, that's about it, I guess. Well they can do auras a bit better (but Iron Hands don't really need Captains, for one thing). Raven Guard do snipers better and killing characters; Iron Hands obliterate the army, so that those buffing characters don't have anything left.

 

So, uh, do you want to explain what you mean, rather than impuning that other people are stupid and don't know what to do besides call for nerfs?

 

You answered it already, if you get wiped turn 1, knights and Admech are no different to it. If you will shine Turn 2 with doctrines or Turn 3 so be it. I mean people can be lazy, stupid and whiny but that does not mean everyone else is. Imagine how I started Iron Hands with a measly 6++ on Bikes, Dreads and Infantry. That was it. I adapted to it and I believe YOU and other people can, too. And imagine if Space Elves get new stuff, "say what, you want to do stuff? how  about I have new spell and you cannot overwatch, since Banshees, go have some fun doing nothing". There are always problems to be solved by your own means and not a cry for help from Daddy and Mommy at GW. I have seen so much BS this Edition already, I really think we all can survive Iron Hands.

[Ishagu]

 

 

 

 

I still think people are too lazy to point out what Raven Guard, Scars, Ultras and in the next time Fists and Salamanders are better at.

No, it's just that the things they're better at are more niche: Iron Hands have a heavy punch right off the bat, and they just keep doing it. White Scars can do a lot of damage in melee, and are good at getting there; Iron Hands do that damage output from 36" away, and they do it better. Ultramarines do Aggressors better...and uh, that's about it, I guess. Well they can do auras a bit better (but Iron Hands don't really need Captains, for one thing). Raven Guard do snipers better and killing characters; Iron Hands obliterate the army, so that those buffing characters don't have anything left.

 

So, uh, do you want to explain what you mean, rather than impuning that other people are stupid and don't know what to do besides call for nerfs?

You answered it already, if you get wiped turn 1, knights and Admech are no different to it. If you will shine Turn 2 with doctrines or Turn 3 so be it. I mean people can be lazy, stupid and whiny but that does not mean everyone else is. Imagine how I started Iron Hands with a measly 6++ on Bikes, Dreads and Infantry. That was it. I adapted to it and I believe YOU and other people can, too. And imagine if Space Elves get new stuff, "say what, you want to do stuff? how about I have new spell and you cannot overwatch, since Banshees, go have some fun doing nothing". There are always problems to be solved by your own means and not a cry for help from Daddy and Mommy at GW. I have seen so much BS this Edition already, I really think we all can survive Iron Hands.

Iron Hands just won 12/14 tournaments, 80% of games over the last two weeks and made up more than 50% of lists in the top 4 at all of these events. No other faction or chaper compares to this.

We are in an age where lots of 40k is played, with multiple events every week. You can compile lots of data very quickly.

Edited October 16, 2019 by Ishagu

[brÖtherIrön]

 

 

 

I still think people are too lazy to point out what Raven Guard, Scars, Ultras and in the next time Fists and Salamanders are better at.

No, it's just that the things they're better at are more niche: Iron Hands have a heavy punch right off the bat, and they just keep doing it. White Scars can do a lot of damage in melee, and are good at getting there; Iron Hands do that damage output from 36" away, and they do it better. Ultramarines do Aggressors better...and uh, that's about it, I guess. Well they can do auras a bit better (but Iron Hands don't really need Captains, for one thing). Raven Guard do snipers better and killing characters; Iron Hands obliterate the army, so that those buffing characters don't have anything left.

 

So, uh, do you want to explain what you mean, rather than impuning that other people are stupid and don't know what to do besides call for nerfs?

You answered it already, if you get wiped turn 1, knights and Admech are no different to it. If you will shine Turn 2 with doctrines or Turn 3 so be it. I mean people can be lazy, stupid and whiny but that does not mean everyone else is. Imagine how I started Iron Hands with a measly 6++ on Bikes, Dreads and Infantry. That was it. I adapted to it and I believe YOU and other people can, too. And imagine if Space Elves get new stuff, "say what, you want to do stuff? how about I have new spell and you cannot overwatch, since Banshees, go have some fun doing nothing". There are always problems to be solved by your own means and not a cry for help from Daddy and Mommy at GW. I have seen so much BS this Edition already, I really think we all can survive Iron Hands.

Iron Hands just won 12/14 tournaments, 80% of games over the last two weeks and made up more than 50% of lists in the top 4 at all of these events. No other faction or chaper compares to this.

We are in an age where lots of 40k is played, with multiple events every week. You can compile lots of data very quickly.

 

I give you credit since you give the "IH = OP therefore nerf to nothingness"- statement some data and I do not nail you on, please show me a credible source. But everything happening now happened before to some extent. If you think you cannot win against "rofl-stomp hands" you have a problem. just relax, wait how everything turns out, if and how hard the nerf-bat swings and try to play your blue little fellas as good as you can/want.

[Ishagu]

Give this a watch:

 

https://youtu.be/5C9mgyI8kWs

Edited October 16, 2019 by Ishagu

[brÖtherIrön]

Give this a watch:

 

https://youtu.be/5C9mgyI8kWs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORWelkTkqP8

[GrinNfool]

 

 

 

 

You answered it already, if you get wiped turn 1, knights and Admech are no different to it. If you will shine Turn 2 with doctrines or Turn 3 so be it. I mean people can be lazy, stupid and whiny but that does not mean everyone else is. Imagine how I started Iron Hands with a measly 6++ on Bikes, Dreads and Infantry. That was it. I adapted to it and I believe YOU and other people can, too. And imagine if Space Elves get new stuff, "say what, you want to do stuff? how  about I have new spell and you cannot overwatch, since Banshees, go have some fun doing nothing". There are always problems to be solved by your own means and not a cry for help from Daddy and Mommy at GW. I have seen so much BS this Edition already, I really think we all can survive Iron Hands.

 

Prior weakness is not a reasonable basis for being broken now.  Even Castellans and Ynnari at their pinnacle never hit 70-80% win rates IH are getting vs non IH and EVERYONE agrees those were broken.  I get you want to enjoy IH being strong, and honestly I have no interest in IH being nerfed back to where they were.  For the health of the game though I do think they need to be checked down a bit.  You mention ultras several times as being good, and they are, they would be my rough target for IH they can be a little better, but right now they are excessive IMHO. 

 

The other thing I keep seeing pop up in this thread, is "Just bring eliminators!" thats fine for other marines, but most factions don't have a sniper that can shoot through walls.  I really don't want to be in a Marine v Marine meta, with all the cool factions 40k has that doesn't seem like a healthy place for the game to be headed.

[brÖtherIrön]

 

 

 

 

 

You answered it already, if you get wiped turn 1, knights and Admech are no different to it. If you will shine Turn 2 with doctrines or Turn 3 so be it. I mean people can be lazy, stupid and whiny but that does not mean everyone else is. Imagine how I started Iron Hands with a measly 6++ on Bikes, Dreads and Infantry. That was it. I adapted to it and I believe YOU and other people can, too. And imagine if Space Elves get new stuff, "say what, you want to do stuff? how  about I have new spell and you cannot overwatch, since Banshees, go have some fun doing nothing". There are always problems to be solved by your own means and not a cry for help from Daddy and Mommy at GW. I have seen so much BS this Edition already, I really think we all can survive Iron Hands.

 

Prior weakness is not a reasonable basis for being broken now.  Even Castellans and Ynnari at their pinnacle never hit 70-80% win rates IH are getting vs non IH and EVERYONE agrees those were broken.  I get you want to enjoy IH being strong, and honestly I have no interest in IH being nerfed back to where they were.  For the health of the game though I do think they need to be checked down a bit.  You mention ultras several times as being good, and they are, they would be my rough target for IH they can be a little better, but right now they are excessive IMHO. 

 

The other thing I keep seeing pop up in this thread, is "Just bring eliminators!" thats fine for other marines, but most factions don't have a sniper that can shoot through walls.  I really don't want to be in a Marine v Marine meta, with all the cool factions 40k has that doesn't seem like a healthy place for the game to be headed.

 

Honestly, I am prepared for everything. I even play a list, where staying in the Devastator Doctrine is not necessary. I will post this later. I hope you have enough tournament experience vs Hands AND other factions to see "classic hands" are not an auto-win. Top Iron Hands Lists also vary wildly. If people get their 80% winrate by shooting at leviathans and repulsors with or without snipers I can undertand how this happens. Often, against I do not have to kill the Castellan to win a match even if this boogey-unit harasses me. What I enjoy about hands is their ability to negate so many -1 to hit modifiers. Could you post your current list, just to get to know where you are coming from? It is about tourney lists, not tailored against XY.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Iron Hands do not need any nerfs. FLG is purposely blowing things out of proportion and misreporting the facts.

 

Ishagu shame on you for being an anti SM sympathizer. :(

[Ishagu]

I'm not at all. It's simple mathematics - they simply stack too many rules, and have no weakness.

 

If you try to remove their characters for 1 CP they can pass off wounds to other infantry. If you try to beat them with psychic powers they can deny on a 4+

If you try to charge them they can overwatch on a 4+

 

I love the SM codex, I love the supplement idea, GW knocked it out of the park with Ultras, White Scars and Raven Guard, but they went too far with Iron Hands. It's worth noting they are also winning ETC tournaments, not just ITC.

Edited October 16, 2019 by Ishagu

[brÖtherIrön]

I'm not at all. It's simple mathematics - they simply stack too many rules, and have no weakness.

 

If you try to remove their characters for 1 CP they can pass off wounds to other infantry. If you try to beat them with psychic powers they can deny on a 4+

If you try to charge them they can overwatch on a 4+

 

I love the SM codex, I love the supplement idea, GW knocked it out of the park with Ultras, White Scars and Raven Guard, but they went too far with Iron Hands. It's worth noting they are also winning ETC tournaments, not just ITC.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/10/16/space-marines-preview-the-imperial-fistsgw-homepage-post-1/?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=Facebook&utm_campaign=40k&utm_content=40kImperial16thOct&fbclid=IwAR1mIZORT4OcrDyvzIuh7i8ktej9vl-aqeCSKfPyKNA3JV8zVvsI9A5LWfc

 

now you counter the Iron Stone, have fun playing Imperial Fists.

[Happy-inquisitor]

 

 

Is it too early? Sort of. It is very early, but the results are the most extreme we've seen in 8th. The new supplements sure are coming, and they might help balance out Iron Hands...except that isn't really going to work out - if Imperial Fists become a counter to Iron Hands, then one would have to play IF to counter IH, or IH to dominate the rest of the field: that's not balanced, that's just two armies fighting it out for who gets to win; it doesn't leave room for the other factions. We've seen the first book for Psychic Awakening, and while it's quite nice, it's nothing compared to the Iron Hands - the "Eldar Successor" rules are cool, but they don't hold a candle to Iron Hands; even Marine Successor Tactics are generally better.

 

As for new Codexes, besides Sisters what do we know of? You make that statement like it's a fact that everything is getting a full revamp, but that's pure speculation. They might do it, they might not.

 

 

 

I am largely in agreement with you but on the IF thing not so much.

 

IF and successors look to be brutal vs Vehicles of all kinds. All of the IH lists we have seen so far are quite dependent on vehicles to do the heavy lifting. So to that extent IF naturally counter IH - they hurt them just as much as normal when they are huddled round the Ironstone and what they do to them once the Ironstone is taken out or the IH spread out to try to score some objectives is going to be eye-watering for the IH player.

 

The big difference in this game of rock paper scissors is that if Imperial Fists are paper to the IH rock then they are tissue paper because against factions that do not depend on vehicles they lose their OP nature. Sure they are still space marines with the new codex so they will still be good vs GSC, Nids, Tau, Chaos etc but they will not be stupidly good. On the other hand any faction leaning heavily on vehicles (such as Iron Hands) should take a long hard look at the maths of what IF do to them before planning how to spend the winnings from their next tournament.

 

Having said all that - I still hope and expect one or two quite restrained nerfs to the IH as I think they are going to be needed. I am less on board with the longer shopping lists of strong  nerfs I have seen put about, I really think an initial tweak alongside the new supplements should be enough to then leave it a few months to see how it works out. But then I am a pathological optimist.

[MeltaRange]

Honestly, I am prepared for everything. I even play a list, where staying in the Devastator Doctrine is not necessary. I will post this later. I hope you have enough tournament experience vs Hands AND other factions to see "classic hands" are not an auto-win. Top Iron Hands Lists also vary wildly. If people get their 80% winrate by shooting at leviathans and repulsors with or without snipers I can undertand how this happens. Often, against I do not have to kill the Castellan to win a match even if this boogey-unit harasses me. What I enjoy about hands is their ability to negate so many -1 to hit modifiers. Could you post your current list, just to get to know where you are coming from? It is about tourney lists, not tailored against XY.

 

Excuse me, what?  Is your point here essentially that everyone who got smoked with Iron Hands just need to learn to play?  People who go to these large tournaments have never faced space marines?  That's a prettttttty big stretch my friend.

 

I'm not at all. It's simple mathematics - they simply stack too many rules, and have no weakness.

 

If you try to remove their characters for 1 CP they can pass off wounds to other infantry. If you try to beat them with psychic powers they can deny on a 4+

If you try to charge them they can overwatch on a 4+

 

I love the SM codex, I love the supplement idea, GW knocked it out of the park with Ultras, White Scars and Raven Guard, but they went too far with Iron Hands. It's worth noting they are also winning ETC tournaments, not just ITC.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/10/16/space-marines-preview-the-imperial-fistsgw-homepage-post-1/?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=Facebook&utm_campaign=40k&utm_content=40kImperial16thOct&fbclid=IwAR1mIZORT4OcrDyvzIuh7i8ktej9vl-aqeCSKfPyKNA3JV8zVvsI9A5LWfc

 

now you counter the Iron Stone, have fun playing Imperial Fists.

 

 

I love this argument.  You "counter the Iron Stone!" .  What about everyone else who doesn't have the Ironstone?  

[brÖtherIrön]

 

Honestly, I am prepared for everything. I even play a list, where staying in the Devastator Doctrine is not necessary. I will post this later. I hope you have enough tournament experience vs Hands AND other factions to see "classic hands" are not an auto-win. Top Iron Hands Lists also vary wildly. If people get their 80% winrate by shooting at leviathans and repulsors with or without snipers I can undertand how this happens. Often, against I do not have to kill the Castellan to win a match even if this boogey-unit harasses me. What I enjoy about hands is their ability to negate so many -1 to hit modifiers. Could you post your current list, just to get to know where you are coming from? It is about tourney lists, not tailored against XY.

 

Excuse me, what?  Is your point here essentially that everyone who got smoked with Iron Hands just need to learn to play?  People who go to these large tournaments have never faced space marines?  That's a prettttttty big stretch my friend.

 

I'm not at all. It's simple mathematics - they simply stack too many rules, and have no weakness.

 

If you try to remove their characters for 1 CP they can pass off wounds to other infantry. If you try to beat them with psychic powers they can deny on a 4+

If you try to charge them they can overwatch on a 4+

 

I love the SM codex, I love the supplement idea, GW knocked it out of the park with Ultras, White Scars and Raven Guard, but they went too far with Iron Hands. It's worth noting they are also winning ETC tournaments, not just ITC.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/10/16/space-marines-preview-the-imperial-fistsgw-homepage-post-1/?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=Facebook&utm_campaign=40k&utm_content=40kImperial16thOct&fbclid=IwAR1mIZORT4OcrDyvzIuh7i8ktej9vl-aqeCSKfPyKNA3JV8zVvsI9A5LWfc

 

now you counter the Iron Stone, have fun playing Imperial Fists.

 

 

I love this argument.  You "counter the Iron Stone!" .  What about everyone else who doesn't have the Ironstone?  

 

Yes, because they have not faced "new marines". It is like playing against, idk Orks, you have an idea but they are also in for some suprises. Well, sometimes you have to eat poop. I did not cry a tear against Guilliman in 8th, or Tau in 7th Ed. Imperial Fists are mighty fine against Hands, well but it does not mean they are better but different. I like that how they fare in a matchup with no clear winner but shine in diffrent ways against different factions.

Edited October 16, 2019 by brÖtherIrön

[emperorpants]

Look, again, I am fine with IH being the best.  There is nothing wrong with that.  But this attitude that people need to learn to play to counter the IH is silly.  Simply silly.  These are top tourney players.  They know how to play.  Give me a break. 

 

Also, the attitude of "it's ok, IH were weak before so this is payback!" is total garbage.  I know it's nice to be strong.  It's a good feeling right?  The thing is, it sucks for everyone else.  This isn't how you balance a game.  It's not ok to have everyone else's fun ruined so you can get a sense of revenge for being weak in the past.  It's like a kid who grew up being bullied and as an adult got buff and started bullying everybody else.  Seriously, it's bad for the game.  It's going to create a toxic atmosphere and affect  the health of the game.  It's why character's get nerfed in fighting games.  It's why balance is important.  Your feeling of power should not take priority over every other player who doesn't play IH's fun.

 

Personally, I don't want to nerf IH straight into the ground.  I just think a few tweaks to the iron stone and the super doctrine would be sufficient.  Maybe make a few strats a bit more expensive.

[MeltaRange]

Yes, because they have not faced "new marines". It is like playing against, idk Orks, you have an idea but they are also in for some suprises. Well, sometimes you have to eat poop. I did not cry a tear against Guilliman in 8th, or Tau in 7th Ed. Imperial Fists are mighty fine against Hands, well but it does not mean they are better but different. I like that how they fare in a matchup with no clear winner but shine in diffrent ways against different factions.

 

 

Well, I'm just going to have to wholeheartedly disagree here.  

 

Since you used Orks as an example, I'll expand on it.

 

Iron Hands aren't like "Da Jump" - a very good, interesting, and unique ability that you need to learn how to play around.  Iron Hands are like the "Da Suped Up Shokka" - just an unbelievably good, auto-take, point and click ability that just facerolls you and there's nothing you can do about it. 

 

That is precisely why many of us are up in arms about the Iron Hands right now.

Edited October 16, 2019 by MeltaRange

[brÖtherIrön]

 

Yes, because they have not faced "new marines". It is like playing against, idk Orks, you have an idea but they are also in for some suprises. Well, sometimes you have to eat poop. I did not cry a tear against Guilliman in 8th, or Tau in 7th Ed. Imperial Fists are mighty fine against Hands, well but it does not mean they are better but different. I like that how they fare in a matchup with no clear winner but shine in diffrent ways against different factions.

 

 

Well, I'm just going to have to wholeheartedly disagree here.  

 

Since you used Orks as an example, I'll expand on it.

 

Iron Hands aren't like "Da Jump" - a very good, interesting, and unique ability that you need to learn how to play around.  Iron Hands are like the "Da Suped Up Shokka" - just an unbelievably good, auto-take, point and click ability that just facerolls you and there's nothing you can do about it. 

 

That is precisely why many of us are up in arms about the Iron Hands right now.

 

And how will you feel if Imperial Fists do +1 Damage against Vehicles and basically get "tesla bolters" on a 6+? I mean there are some treats for them and dont get me starting on Salamanders(i dont know, not so many leaks yet :-) )

[Kallas]

And how will you feel if Imperial Fists do +1 Damage against Vehicles and basically get "tesla bolters" on a 6+? I mean there are some treats for them and dont get me starting on Salamanders(i dont know, not so many leaks yet :-) )

 

Honestly? I don't know! Because they aren't out yet. We don't have the full rules for them. What we do have is much, much less obnoxious than Iron Hands: for one thing, IF don't get to move and shoot heavy weapons with impunity, so you can actually use terrain and mobility to hide from them, or at least lessen their impact by forcing them to move. +1D vs Vehicles/Buildings is potent...unless you don't have any Vehicles, at which point it's literally worthless (oh no, my Ork horde of Boyz...is totally unfazed!)

 

Tesla Bolters. Not even close. For one it's unmodified 6s (so no +1s to get it on better rolls) and it's an extra hit with a Bolter (ie, S4), which isn't as good as the S5 of Tesla. Also, while it's certainly not bad, it's not exactly the biggest issue in the world. Again, LoS can be used (either to counter Bolter Discipline, or just generally to avoid shots).

 

IF look like they might be decent, but we don't know if they have anything close to the synergy of IH. Do they have an awesome Denial stratagem? Grot Shields? Better FNP? Because IH do.

[MeltaRange]

And how will you feel if Imperial Fists do +1 Damage against Vehicles and basically get "tesla bolters" on a 6+? I mean there are some treats for them and dont get me starting on Salamanders(i dont know, not so many leaks yet :-) )

 

Well, as far as Fists go, I don't have the full picture.  They will likely do pretty insane damage.  But so far, at least there looks like there's incentive to move away from their super doctrine, since "bolt" weapons are mostly Assault and Rapid Fire.  From reports I've seen, they are "squishy" in the same sense as a regular marine is squishy.  So it depends.  Do Dev Centurions look absolutely ridiculous right now, sure. 

 

But to illustrate how I feel about IH right now, if Fists were as broken as Iron Hands, then there would be a stratagem called "I Don't Care About Stealth" which for 1CP meant that IF can ignore "you can't overwatch" rules on units that charge them and overwatch on a 5+; a Warlord Trait for Falling Back and Shooting anything within 6", and then a 1CP stratagem "Centurion God Mode" that made them Advance 6" and still shoot, even without Line of Sight.  So like just make an already good unit of Dev Cents unbelievably good because counters don't work. 

Edited October 16, 2019 by MeltaRange

[Brother Lunkhead]

=][=

Considering the subject matter, this conversation has been remarkably civil, but it is starting to fray a wee bit. Let's endeavor to keep it remarkably civil.

=][=

[Medjugorje]

 

My changes would be:

 

 

Calculated Fury:

The unique doctrine should only apply to infantry. Iron Hands already have a powerful chapter tactic that bolsters their vehicles.

 

Iron Father Feirros:

Increase cost to 220 points. Feirros is the best Astartes named character in terms of utility (In the HQ slot), specifically when combined with Iron Hands tactics and rules. His costs need to reflect this simple fact.

 

March of the Ancients:

Change to 2CP, and can only be used once per battle. At the moment if you have a Dread with less than 10 wounds in your list you automatically use this strat. At least make me think about it.

 

Cogitated Martyrdom:

Change to 3CP. It costs 3CP to make some Intercessors target a character. Make it cost 3CP to negate their attacks in return. Alternatively change it to 2CP but limit's it's use to the Tactical Doctrine.

 

Machine Empathy:

Change to 2CP. Far too powerful when combined with Feirros and the psychic power

 

Iron Stone:

Change the effect to work only once per battle. Activate at the start of a turn of the controlling player's choosing. This is currently the best relic in the game, it need to be toned down.

 

Souls of Iron:

Change to once per battle, or change cost to 3CP. In combination with a CP re-roll and regular deny-the-witch this makes Iron Hands shut down psykers too reliably.

 

Blessing of the Machine God:

Change to WC6

 

Psysteel Armour:

Change to WC7

Boy oh boy, somebody does not like Iron Hands, like a lot. Are you sure you do not play Ultras to its fullest? I mean, what do you offer, give Guillman another 100pts increase, -2 to hit if you fall back. Where is the balance? "We" cried a lot about Ultras and I saw a ton of Ultras. To be honest, I think Repulsors will rise, Leviathans and Feirros in points and that is about it. We will get the same treatment as Ultras did. We will get not worse rules wise but we pay in points. I hope everyone is happy. If you really, really have a problem with Feirros, you better get your Scouts/Eliminators. If you do not want it, you better do not to castle up against hands but try to play your ton of cool strategems Ultras provide and play the mission.

 

 

I think you should take it on math. How many Snipers do you Need to kill Feirros or the Ironstone guy (think about the stratagems !!!) they have a better FnP and can take the TAU-Drone-Thing.

 

[Medjugorje]

 

If Hands continue to be the new hotness, do you have to change your list/faction or do we have to change hands a lot? I do not know, but I never considered to play Guilliman and played Hands to its best, early 8th. Think about it. Talk about that in your Ultras Forum instead of solely relying on "Us" to get worse. Every player became deaf if we mentioned "how is it possible that Cawl and Guilliman is on every damn battlefield?"

 

Um, what do you think happened to Guilliman?

 

Four nerfs. He got a points increase; then a points increase; then the units that were taken got points increases; and then most recently his aura got nerfed.

 

Bad example, because it's exactly what Iron Hands need.

 

 

some People dont want to hear it. But its abolutly true. They Need a nerf. Not in Points, GW must Change the rules itself.

[Medjugorje]

 

 

If Hands continue to be the new hotness, do you have to change your list/faction or do we have to change hands a lot? I do not know, but I never considered to play Guilliman and played Hands to its best, early 8th. Think about it. Talk about that in your Ultras Forum instead of solely relying on "Us" to get worse. Every player became deaf if we mentioned "how is it possible that Cawl and Guilliman is on every damn battlefield?"

 

Um, what do you think happened to Guilliman?

 

Four nerfs. He got a points increase; then a points increase; then the units that were taken got points increases; and then most recently his aura got nerfed.

 

Bad example, because it's exactly what Iron Hands need.

 

To be honest, I do not play Feirros and I really care not about him and Primaris in general, so GW can make him useless. I will eat popcorn and watch it burn, but the rest will not happen. If they nerf Levis, be my guest. I will NOT touch Levis since they are TOO HOT. Both units scream to be nerfed in some way. The rest is fine. If your Feirros + Repulsors will get 200 pointes get more expensive everyone can be happy and people will play Hands more creative like Bikes or Lands Speeders.

 

 

the first Thing which must be nerfed is the ironstone. THERE ist just ONE  f+++++ Transport vehicle played in the whole 8th editon ( repulsor and razorback doesnt Count - because they were not used for Transport some Units) because of their good rule. Thats okay because its just a Transport without t8 XXX shots and and a 5++. Now we have 3 Executioners with that.

 

But a normal Executioner is not that hard if you playing Ultramarines, Black Templars or White Scars.

 

[Medjugorje]

 

The problem is they are running wildly different, super powerful lists.

 

The flyer spam super list doesn't rely on any relics or auras, it's just a byproduct of their incredible doctrine and chapter tactic. Why are Iron Hands the best pilots?

Why do they have better attack bikes and Stalker Intercessors than White Scars and Reven Guard respectively?

I still think people are too lazy to point out what Raven Guard, Scars, Ultras and in the next time Fists and Salamanders are better at.

 

 

 

 

I am sure you are a very bad Player or a IH Player.

I dont blame other People who dont want to Play competitive, but I hate it when they want to talk about Balance, Nerfs,... as they have any idea of it.

And be honest. How much tournaments did you won or how good is your Performance if you participate on a tournement.

 

[tychobi]

WHEW! Those numbers! The space marines are hot folks, the iron forge bubbles over with blessings and its getting on the floor Edited October 17, 2019 by tychobi

[Lord_Caerolion]

 

My changes would be:

 

 

Calculated Fury:

The unique doctrine should only apply to infantry. Iron Hands already have a powerful chapter tactic that bolsters their vehicles.

 

Iron Father Feirros:

Increase cost to 220 points. Feirros is the best Astartes named character in terms of utility (In the HQ slot), specifically when combined with Iron Hands tactics and rules. His costs need to reflect this simple fact.

 

March of the Ancients:

Change to 2CP, and can only be used once per battle. At the moment if you have a Dread with less than 10 wounds in your list you automatically use this strat. At least make me think about it.

 

Cogitated Martyrdom:

Change to 3CP. It costs 3CP to make some Intercessors target a character. Make it cost 3CP to negate their attacks in return. Alternatively change it to 2CP but limit's it's use to the Tactical Doctrine.

 

Machine Empathy:

Change to 2CP. Far too powerful when combined with Feirros and the psychic power

 

Iron Stone:

Change the effect to work only once per battle. Activate at the start of a turn of the controlling player's choosing. This is currently the best relic in the game, it need to be toned down.

 

Souls of Iron:

Change to once per battle, or change cost to 3CP. In combination with a CP re-roll and regular deny-the-witch this makes Iron Hands shut down psykers too reliably.

 

Blessing of the Machine God:

Change to WC6

 

Psysteel Armour:

Change to WC7

Boy oh boy, somebody does not like Iron Hands, like a lot. Are you sure you do not play Ultras to its fullest? I mean, what do you offer, give Guillman another 100pts increase, -2 to hit if you fall back. Where is the balance? "We" cried a lot about Ultras and I saw a ton of Ultras. To be honest, I think Repulsors will rise, Leviathans and Feirros in points and that is about it. We will get the same treatment as Ultras did. We will get not worse rules wise but we pay in points. I hope everyone is happy. If you really, really have a problem with Feirros, you better get your Scouts/Eliminators. If you do not want it, you better do not to castle up against hands but try to play your ton of cool strategems Ultras provide and play the mission.

 

 

Dude, I'll be civil since I don't want this topic closed, but given your first gate-keeping thread, and your attitude here, you're coming across as really obnoxious, so please, quit portraying everyone who disagrees with you as whiners who are either bandwagon jumpers or just don't know how to play.