Iron Hands nerf?

[Ishagu]

Don't compare Ultras CT/Doctrines with Iron Hands or look at abilities in a vacuum.

 

The Iron Hands are not just about the Doctrine. It's their Chapter Tactics, Warlord Traits, Relics, Psychic Powers and Stratagems in combination that put them head and shoulders above other chapters. Ultras don't have an 80% win rate and they aren't winning 77% of majors and GTs across the world. Also the IH Doctrine is easily the best one anyways.

 

Feirros offers too much utility for his cost. It's not his stats you should look at but the abilities he provides and how those abilities are costed in other books.

 

I would include him in my list without a thought even if he was priced at 200+

 

In short, IH have:

-The best named character

-The best Relic in the game

-The best faction rules in the game

-The best doctrine out of any Chapter

-Some of best stratagems (eg: Chapter Dreads)

-Fantastic psychic powers, easy to cast

Edited October 15, 2019 by Ishagu

[THUNDERFISTS]

To be honest part of the issue is GWs very slow release system. Makes every other army feel so rubbish compared to the codex creep, yeah my codex may be great in... 8 months. So until then I can’t really compete (I mean my army has been bad the entire edition so that’s nothing new ).

 

But overall it makes people annoyed and stirs up bad feelings.

 

"Slow release system"... You weren't around when people had to wait YEARS for a new codex, sometimes several editions worth, while receiving no FAQs nor updates whatsoever? Perspective matters here. 

[TrawlingCleaner]

Don't compare Ultras CT/Doctrines with Iron Hands or look at abilities in a vacuum.

 

The Iron Hands are not just about the Doctrine. It's their Chapter Tactics, Warlord Traits, Relics, Psychic Powers and Stratagems in combination that put them head and shoulders above other chapters. Ultras don't have an 80% win rate and they aren't winning 77% of majors and GTs across the world. Also the IH Doctrine is easily the best one anyways.

 

Feirros offers too much utility for his cost. It's not his stats you should look at but the abilities he provides and how those abilities are costed in other books.

 

I would include him in my list without a thought even if he was priced at 200+

 

In short, IH have:

-The best named character

-The best Relic in the game

-The best faction rules in the game

-The best doctrine out of any Chapter

-Some of best stratagems (eg: Chapter Dreads)

-Fantastic psychic powers, easy to cast

So you'd put feirrios on the same points level as Calgar? I'm struggling to understand how feirrios is equal here? Not in a vacuum, Feirrios benefits vehicles heavily and infantry with a 5++ but calgar benefits your entire army AND everything within 6" let alone their individual stats.

 

I get that IH CT are strong, but Ultras are as strong and apply to more, falling out of combat and being able to shoot is huge for stuff that didn't already have fly, T2 executioners are always firing twice and are incredibly mobile. Both armies can build heavily into their bonus on doctrines and benefit from them hugely.

[Ishagu]

Feirros is worth more than Calgar. You can gain re-roll auras easily elsewhere for cheap, the Iron Father has unique and powerful abilities.

 

You're placing too much value on Calgar's close combat power and durability, but the Invul Aura and vehicle repair are worth a lot more.

 

Remember, the unit shouldn't be in a vacuum. The Iron Father wouldn't be as good in an Ultramarine army, but in Iron Hands, when they get natural re rolls, tougher units, etc it stacks to create powerful combination. He's worth more than Calgar in an Iron Hands army.

Edited October 15, 2019 by Ishagu

[TrawlingCleaner]

Agree to disagree, I think you're placing too much stock in the invuln, with calgar you're up 4 CP over an IH player who tries to get the same aura. If they had have released a generic primaris techmarine at the same time I think feirrios would only probably give the 2+ and the flat 3 heal

[Ishagu]

Iron Hands don't need that aura, that's what you're missing.

You can have an entire airforce hitting on a 2+ and re rolling 1s for free, with no movement penalties.

 

When you have tough units, and you stack up further durability it creates the issues.

[MeltaRange]

My changes would be:

 

1) Make Calculated Fury work as follows:

• If you move, you can move and fire heavy weapons with no penalty.  Units with the Flyer battlefield role are not affected.
• If you don't move, re-roll 1s to hit with heavy weapons

 

2) Make several of their stratagems only work while in a certain Doctrines.  For example, "The Gorgon's Rage" only works in the Assault Doc and "Cogitated Martyrdom" only works in the Tactical Doc.

 

3) Increase the cost of some psychic powers.

 

4) Make the Ironstone work for one battleround, once per game.

[MARK0SIAN]

The concern is that Iron Hands have 80% win rate, and the lists are significantly varied.

 

-Iron Hands Air force

-Iron Hands Repulsors and support

-Iron Hands Dreads and support

 

It indicates the Iron Hands faction core rules might simply be too powerful, and there are multiple over-powered unit combinations.

I hope GW doesn't nerf units across the board that completely ruin the other chapters.

This is he thing though. I have zero faith in GW to apply the nerf bat judiciously. Loot at their nerf for commissars, that wasn’t so much a nerf bat but dropping a nerf meteor on his head. So much so that they later had to correct the nerf somewhat and reduce his points because they so overdid it.

 

More recently there was the Castellan. It needed the 3++ nerfing but sticking an extra hundred points on it was just spite and has made it disappear from knight lists because it simply isn’t worth 700 points.

 

GWs approach, as often as not, is to nerf the offending unit by essentially removing it from play with either ludicrous points increases or gutting it’s rules.

 

It’s something you say you’re fearful of yourself and why I want to wait to see if we are absolutely sure Iron hands are an outlier for any new books/rules before we hand out any nerfs.

[MeltaRange]

Agree to disagree, I think you're placing too much stock in the invuln, with calgar you're up 4 CP over an IH player who tries to get the same aura. If they had have released a generic primaris techmarine at the same time I think feirrios would only probably give the 2+ and the flat 3 heal

 

The Invuln means double the chance to save something with AP3, and gives a chance to save against AP4.  So, yeah.  I think you're actually placing too little stock in it, actually.

 

I didn't realize until just now that the Iron Father gives a BS2+ to any unit, even damaged.  I thought it was just +1BS for some reason, but that's hilarious.

[quasistellar]

Feirros should have a mild points bump.  Nothing insane like 250 points, mind you.

 

The issue that is bubbling to the surface is the Doctrine itself and the Ironstone.  Ignoring the -1 on heavy weapons IN ADDITION to rerolling 1's all the time is too much.  You should be able to ignore the -1 to hit, but only get the reroll 1's when stationary.

 

The Ironstone should be limited to 1 vehicle within 3 inches, but you activate it when a unit is declared as a target of the attack.  That way the opposing player can bait it out (similar to lightning fast reflexes or rotate ion shields).  I do NOT think it should be declared at the beginning of the round--it would be too easy to just not shoot whatever is getting buffed.

[Guest MistaGav]

My changes would be:

 

1) Make Calculated Fury work as follows:

• If you move, you can move and fire heavy weapons with no penalty. Units with the Flyer battlefield role are not affected.
• If you don't move, re-roll 1s to hit with heavy weapons

That seems like a sensible nerf while still retaining the strengths. I saw a few lists that didnt have the triple executioners and leviathan but instead loads of flyers, snipers and other stuff.

 

The frustrating thing I can see here is that most of these nerfs will pretty much invalidate the whole book. Might as well do a reprint at that point!

[Galron]

I am with the OPs original suggestions. It will be interesting to see though when IF come out since they seem to be the anti-IH with their mass low damage but easy to wound and pop mortal wound fire and they can have fairly low cost dreadnoughts and still be highly effective. The character stratagem and Iron Stone are the biggest thing that needs a nerfing that or not allowing the use of Iron Stone and the half damage strat on the same model.

[jeremy1391]

To fix IH

 

limit the character dread strat to one use

Make iron stone not stack with half damage strat

Limit iron stone and half damage strat to codex dreadnoughts only

[Brother Tyler]

Note that I've merged Ishagu's topic about how GW can tone the Iron Hands down with tychobi's extant topic about nerfing the Iron Hands - essentially duplicate discussions.

[Rodrick]

Iron Hands don't need that aura, that's what you're missing.

You can have an entire airforce hitting on a 2+ and re rolling 1s for free, with no movement penalties.

 

When you have tough units, and you stack up further durability it creates the issues.

 

well Stormtalon are only T6 , all icarus cannons missile and such are S7...

 

not near tough

[Ishagu]

 

 

Iron Hands don't need that aura, that's what you're missing.

You can have an entire airforce hitting on a 2+ and re rolling 1s for free, with no movement penalties.

 

When you have tough units, and you stack up further durability it creates the issues.

well Stormtalon are only T6 , all icarus cannons missile and such are S7...

 

not near tough

I don't think you're aware of how strong the IH flyer spam is. They don't degrade, they don't miss.

[quasistellar]

I think what he's getting at is that the popular flyer is really easy to kill.  Many of the weapons that are optimized for killing flyers don't have much wasted AP either when it comes to being in the invuln bubble.

 

It's not the durability that's making these flyers all the sudden great; it's the new PotMS + Captain buff applied for free at all times.  These things have a ton of dakka!

[Rodrick]

 

 

Iron Hands don't need that aura, that's what you're missing.

You can have an entire airforce hitting on a 2+ and re rolling 1s for free, with no movement penalties.

 

When you have tough units, and you stack up further durability it creates the issues.

well Stormtalon are only T6 , all icarus cannons missile and such are S7...

 

not near tough

I don't think you're aware of how strong the IH flyer spam is. They don't degrade, they don't miss.

 

 

 im aware. ive played that list twice . but specialized anti air chews stormtalons... flimsy T6.

 

stormhawks in the other hand, pretty solid

[RandomMarine]

 

Every army is getting a new treatment.

This sentiment seems to be popular in the thread, but aside from theories loosely based on past experience, I don’t see any particular evidence that it’s happening.

Except the other 4 non gk astartes books will get updated codices guaranteed due to their current books not containing vanguard units and every other faction being covered by PA. For God's sake man the entire eldar factions update comes out on Saturday

[Ishagu]

I've seen the Eldar update and it's nothing like the Iron Hands power level.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

It doesn't need to be when they have the Flying Circus already.

[Special Officer Doofy]

I don't want a couple new Stratagems or a stupid gimmick rule from psychic awakening. I want a new over powered codex/supplements like space marines, with new stronger legion traits that apply to every single unit not just infantry and helbrutes, undercosted special characters and army wide buffs for being mono army. I don't think psychic awakening is going to give me that...

[Brom MKIV]

My changes would be:

 

1) Make Calculated Fury work as follows:

• If you move, you can move and fire heavy weapons with no penalty.  Units with the Flyer battlefield role are not affected.
• If you don't move, re-roll 1s to hit with heavy weapons

 

2) Make several of their stratagems only work while in a certain Doctrines.  For example, "The Gorgon's Rage" only works in the Assault Doc and "Cogitated Martyrdom" only works in the Tactical Doc.

 

3) Increase the cost of some psychic powers.

 

4) Make the Ironstone work for one battleround, once per game.

I like all of this and was actually thinking of similar. Except one thing.. I don't think the stone deserves such a hefty nerf. Keep it from stacking with duty eternal. Thats enough IMO. 

[Ishagu]

 

The problems are indeed real...

 

Copied from the other topic but most relevant to IH:

Basically, there are factions that in the right hands can perform very well. Ynnari were one such army, and they had a very high win % when they were used by a few capable players. Their win % actually fell as more people started to use them (typically happens as more people = more players of low skill start using the faction). They hit a win success of about 65% at their peak before they grew in popularity.

 

Iron Hands make up 10% of all tournament armies over the past 2 weeks, meaning players of all skill levels are using them. Despite this they have a win rate of 78% and more worryingly, achieve this with multiple different list templates indicating that the core rules, as well as various unit combinations are too powerful. This means that all sorts of Iron Hands lists will crush opponents in competitive and casual play alike, it's not just a problem in tournaments and it's not just one list you can avoid.

 

White Scars are the 2nd top performers, with a win rate of 66% but are used by a much lower number of players - they are a faction that can perform in the hands of a skilled general, and Ultras are far behind with a win rate of 52% which is actually not much better than what they used to have with the old codex. They are the 2nd most popular after Iron Hands.

 

The issue is not with the codex, and it's important to recognise that all factions are not equal culprits. This is also easily fixed as the rules causing this aren't shared across all the chapters, and can be modified individually.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

This is confirmation bias. You and everyone else parroting this line isn't analyzing the situation completely.

 

Consider that the supplement has been available for what, less than a month? The tournament meta needs time to adapt to what IH bring to tabletop. Give it more time and I bet we'll see that win rate drop as functions of 1. the low-skill net-listers getting on board and 2. the playerbase developing counter-tactics.