Iron Hands nerf?

[Kallas]

This is confirmation bias.

 

Yup, 12/14 tournaments being taken by Iron Hands is totally just confirmation bias... 

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Go re-read my entire post instead of snipping out one line.

[Ishagu]

Go re-read my entire post instead of snipping out one line.

The meta has already adapted. The top players switched to Iron Hands lol

[emperorpants]

This is confirmation bias. You and everyone else parroting this line isn't analyzing the situation completely.

 

Consider that the supplement has been available for what, less than a month? The tournament meta needs time to adapt to what IH bring to tabletop. Give it more time and I bet we'll see that win rate drop as functions of 1. the low-skill net-listers getting on board and 2. the playerbase developing counter-tactics.

Really?  Going by that logic, can't we also say that IH players just need more time to figure out even more powerful combos?  Give it more time and I bet we'll see MORE broken combos that no one has thought of yet.  Also, of course the win rate will drop some.  That is a given.  The problem is if the meta becomes IH vs IH things get boring real quick.  

 

I've already seen reports that tourney players are either switching to IH or are going to stop going to tourneys all together unless something is done about IH.  People at the local level are saying they straight up won't play IH because it's JUST NOT FUN.  All indications seem to be that the way IH currently work is not good for the health of the game.

 

Again, I'm not trying to be mean or rag on the IH.  I'm totally cool with them being the best.  It's just they are so much better than everyone else it's stupid.  Again, the tourney results speak for themselves.  

 

Also, it seems like there are a lot of goal posts being moved in this discussion.  Not by you, so please don't take it that way, but in general.  At first when we were claiming IH were going to be op the response was to wait until we had some tourney results.  Fair enough.  Now we have tourney results and it confirms everything we said and then some.  Now the response seems to be either wait for more tourney results or just a straight up attitude of "Let IH be op, it's our turn to ruin the game for people!"  which isn't healthy for the game at all.  

 

So I guess my honest question becomes this: How long and how many tourney results do we need to be able to declare IH op and that their current rules make for an unpleasant experience?  Again, it's an honest question that will help move the convo forward. 

[Iron Father Ferrum]

So instead of finding a work-around, players are just going to quit? Imagine if the Allies thought that way in 1942, or NASA said "screw it, they won" when the Russians put Gagarin into space first.

 

This isn't a response to "my faction is under attack." This is "people today need to think critically." Yes, the IH are strong. Yes, they're kicking butt. Yes, I understand that some combos are stupid good...but there is counter play if you actually buckle down and figure it out.

 

Ironstone getting you down? Luckily there's Eliminators who can kill its bearer even if he's hiding! Leviathan is functionally invincible? DON'T SHOOT THE FRIGGIN' THING. Shoot everything else! Tie it up in combat! It doesn't have FLY and the meta is taking double stormcannons so it can't fight its way out a paper bag, ergo it can be wrapped up and ignored. People are making castles? Sounds like a great target for Orbital Bombardment. And Fury of the Ancients. Linebreaker Bombardment, if your codex still has it. Iron Air Force giving you fits? Everything that worked against Eldar Flying Circuses works against the IAF!

 

As for tourney results, again: it's too early to read into those. The meta will adapt. New supplements, Psychic Awakening, and new codices are in the pipe. *Every* faction is getting new or expanded rules, we just have to give GW time to level the playing field before we start Chicken Little-ing about the sky falling.

[Ishagu]

No one is quitting. GW nerfed the Scorpius + Chronus combo within weeks. This is the bar they've set for nerfing stuff, so I expect IH to be adjusted promptly.

[NatBrannigan]

Fingers crossed that the inevitable  Nerfs don't ruin this for the long time Iron Hands players... And that it's not just all mindless points increases!

[Medjugorje]

"The META will..." BS  is not always the answer.  They destroy THE Meta because they have TOO much impact.

[emperorpants]

So instead of finding a work-around, players are just going to quit? Imagine if the Allies thought that way in 1942, or NASA said "screw it, they won" when the Russians put Gagarin into space first.

 

This isn't a response to "my faction is under attack." This is "people today need to think critically." Yes, the IH are strong. Yes, they're kicking butt. Yes, I understand that some combos are stupid good...but there is counter play if you actually buckle down and figure it out.

 

Ironstone getting you down? Luckily there's Eliminators who can kill its bearer even if he's hiding! Leviathan is functionally invincible? DON'T SHOOT THE FRIGGIN' THING. Shoot everything else! Tie it up in combat! It doesn't have FLY and the meta is taking double stormcannons so it can't fight its way out a paper bag, ergo it can be wrapped up and ignored. People are making castles? Sounds like a great target for Orbital Bombardment. And Fury of the Ancients. Linebreaker Bombardment, if your codex still has it. Iron Air Force giving you fits? Everything that worked against Eldar Flying Circuses works against the IAF!

 

As for tourney results, again: it's too early to read into those. The meta will adapt. New supplements, Psychic Awakening, and new codices are in the pipe. *Every* faction is getting new or expanded rules, we just have to give GW time to level the playing field before we start Chicken Little-ing about the sky falling.

That comparison to the allies is a bit faulty.  In WW2 it was a real war with life or death consequences.  40k is a game people play for fun.  Of course people are never going to give up if their literal survival is on the line.  I personally don't agree with it and I won't give up, but if someone finds their hobby un fun because a different faction is op as all gak, who are we to tell them not to quit?  After all, if the game you are playing for fun isn't fun anymore, why play?  Also, it's not the top level players that are quiting, they are simply switching to IH instead.  

 

All the strats you mentioned for dealing with IH have easy counters, I'm sorry to say.  Those IH eliminators aren't sniping anything when you can grot shield your dudes easy enough.  They will then get killed quite easily.  The levi can be screened for and charging it in melee isn't really going to work for most armies when the thing can hit on 4's in overwatch with strats with full re-rolls with a chapter master.  Orbital bombardment for castles?  Really?  For serious?  Orbital bombardment has ALWAYS been terrible.  It's not different now.  It will do jack all to a IH castle that will then heal up immediately.  Fury of the ancients?  The psychic power?  Good thing any IH unit can deny psychic on a 4+!  After you've tried to deny the normal way no less.  The only armies that have line breaker bombardment aren't going to be in tournaments, and it still won't work very well.  The IH flying circus seems to be a better version of the Eldar one that has been powerful for so long due to hitting on 2s and re rolling 1s for free and the greater durability.

 

See, with a little thinking any IH player can easily shut down any of those counters.  

[Kallas]

So instead of finding a work-around, players are just going to quit? Imagine if the Allies thought that way in 1942, or NASA said "screw it, they won" when the Russians put Gagarin into space first.

 

Real world is not equivalent. 40k players aren't fighting a literal war, they not trying to accomplish a major achievement: they're playing a game for fun. Iron Hands are so insanely potent that it takes effort to tone them down, and fighting against them isn't fun.

 

This isn't a response to "my faction is under attack." This is "people today need to think critically." Yes, the IH are strong. Yes, they're kicking butt. Yes, I understand that some combos are stupid good...but there is counter play if you actually buckle down and figure it out.

 

Good job with the "people are just whiny and dumb" approach!

 

Ok, let's have a look at your 'suggestions':

 

Ironstone getting you down? Luckily there's Eliminators who can kill its bearer even if he's hiding! Leviathan is functionally invincible? DON'T SHOOT THE FRIGGIN' THING. Shoot everything else! Tie it up in combat! It doesn't have FLY and the meta is taking double stormcannons so it can't fight its way out a paper bag, ergo it can be wrapped up and ignored. People are making castles? Sounds like a great target for Orbital Bombardment. And Fury of the Ancients. Linebreaker Bombardment, if your codex still has it. Iron Air Force giving you fits? Everything that worked against Eldar Flying Circuses works against the IAF!

 

Eliminators: people have run the numbers and it's not really that simple. Executioner Rounds don't cut the mustard for killing off a character, and if the IH player is taking a reasonably tough Ironstone bearer (eg, Gravis Captain, which has been bandied about in the IH forum already) then it becomes unfeasible.

 

Almost literally unkillable Leviathan Dreadnought? Oh sure, put it in melee...past the screening and 5/4+ Overwatch and through probably multiple turns of getting shot up. Sure, you can ignore it...except you can't, because it's obliterating your army each turn you ignore it. Your suggestion is fine in a vacuum, but in actual play it's not really that applicable. Hell, I know that some of my ideas have sounded fine in theory but have worked out poorly on the table - and this is one of them.

 

Orbital Bombardment on a castle. Um, well first off not everyone (ie, every faction) has access to something like this; then, it's also expensive, unreliable and pretty much crap - toss on the 6+++ of the IH and it might as well just be ignored. If you take an Orbital Bombardment list (Impulsors, Stratagem, Damocles Command Rhino) for a good few of them at once...uh, sure, I'm sure that'll be effective as the units that can bombard get systematically destroyed with relative ease. A lot of the suggestions you make here are extremely niche, ineffective, or both.

 

Iron Air Force: a lot stronger than the Eldar Flying Circus. With Ironstone and Feirros, it's functionally immune to being alpha struck by a lot of powerful options, and in turn it can do a lot of damage. Even outside of the Ironstone/Feirros, it's pretty tough, and with the great mobility it can hold far back and then zoom into position, avoiding quite a lot of anti-vehicle firepower.

 

And then, let's factor this in: there are several strong ways to play Iron Hands. There's the Repulsor castle, the Air Force, hell even a boatload of infantry. How does one plan for all of these at once?

 

As for tourney results, again: it's too early to read into those. The meta will adapt. New supplements, Psychic Awakening, and new codices are in the pipe.

 

Is it too early? Sort of. It is very early, but the results are the most extreme we've seen in 8th. The new supplements sure are coming, and they might help balance out Iron Hands...except that isn't really going to work out - if Imperial Fists become a counter to Iron Hands, then one would have to play IF to counter IH, or IH to dominate the rest of the field: that's not balanced, that's just two armies fighting it out for who gets to win; it doesn't leave room for the other factions. We've seen the first book for Psychic Awakening, and while it's quite nice, it's nothing compared to the Iron Hands - the "Eldar Successor" rules are cool, but they don't hold a candle to Iron Hands; even Marine Successor Tactics are generally better.

 

As for new Codexes, besides Sisters what do we know of? You make that statement like it's a fact that everything is getting a full revamp, but that's pure speculation. They might do it, they might not.

 

*Every* faction is getting new or expanded rules, we just have to give GW time to level the playing field before we start Chicken Little-ing about the sky falling.

 

Assuming you're referring to Psychic Awakening here, yes. But the updates from the first Psychic Awakening are not going to be enough to shake the Iron Hands iron grip on the competitive scene if the rules stay in the same vein as the first book.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

So you kill the screen/bodyguards first? Charge wtlith a unit or character that disallows Overwatch? Open with a more-threatening psychic power first (like Null Zone when in range of the Levi)? Area-effect mortal wound effects grow in utility the greater the potential number of units they can hit, and the Ironstone only has a 3" range do that'll be a tight formation. The Fists can OB from strat, OB from a WLT, and OB from an Impulsor all in one turn on the same point. That's a LOT of potential damage that bypasses Toughness, armor, Invulnerables, and the Ironstone.

 

This is critical thinking. This is tactics. With a little inventiveness, you can counter play any army and with sufficient planning, counter the counters.

 

Try it some time.

[Ishagu]

So you kill the screen/bodyguards first? Charge wtlith a unit or character that disallows Overwatch? Open with a more-threatening psychic power first (like Null Zone when in range of the Levi)? Area-effect mortal wound effects grow in utility the greater the potential number of units they can hit, and the Ironstone only has a 3" range do that'll be a tight formation. The Fists can OB from strat, OB from a WLT, and OB from an Impulsor all in one turn on the same point. That's a LOT of potential damage that bypasses Toughness, armor, Invulnerables, and the Ironstone.

 

This is critical thinking. This is tactics. With a little inventiveness, you can counter play any army and with sufficient planning, counter the counters.

 

Try it some time.

It's never that simple. If it was, Iron Hands wouldn't be winning 80% of games, winning 12 out of 14 tournaments and the best players wouldn't have jumped to them.

 

You say we need more time to find counters. Iron Hands will also get BETTER over time as they find optimum builds.

[quasistellar]

I think the core problem with IH is the doctrine.  It just makes the faction too "easy mode".  And then they just happen to have answers to many of the solutions. 

 

Snipe ironstone character? Cogitated martyrdom.

 

Kill troops?  Transhuman physiology. 

 

Charge them?  4+ overwatch and thunderfire cannons decreasing your movement.

 

DId you actually manage to heavily damage a vehicle?  Repair 6 wounds.

 

Personally I like them having nice little answers to tactics that cost CP.  It's fluffy for them to be tough and logical.  I'm actually okay with things with costs!  I think the doctrine should be addressed first (because it's free and available turn 1), as well as increasing some of the CP costs of a few of the strats.  It's currently not costly enough for IH to burn through them.

 

I DON'T think points increases to units are the solution AT ALL.  That will ruin units for everyone else.  It will be stormravens and Bobby G all over again.

[MeltaRange]

So instead of finding a work-around, players are just going to quit? Imagine if the Allies thought that way in 1942, or NASA said "screw it, they won" when the Russians put Gagarin into space first.

 

This isn't a response to "my faction is under attack." This is "people today need to think critically." Yes, the IH are strong. Yes, they're kicking butt. Yes, I understand that some combos are stupid good...but there is counter play if you actually buckle down and figure it out.

 

Ironstone getting you down? Luckily there's Eliminators who can kill its bearer even if he's hiding! Leviathan is functionally invincible? DON'T SHOOT THE FRIGGIN' THING. Shoot everything else! Tie it up in combat! It doesn't have FLY and the meta is taking double stormcannons so it can't fight its way out a paper bag, ergo it can be wrapped up and ignored. People are making castles? Sounds like a great target for Orbital Bombardment. And Fury of the Ancients. Linebreaker Bombardment, if your codex still has it. Iron Air Force giving you fits? Everything that worked against Eldar Flying Circuses works against the IAF!

 

 

 

 

This really isn't a good list my friend, no offense.  As an example, when you say that Eliminators are a weakness, it rings hollow here...we're all space marine players, and know that Iron Hand have the best defense against snipers. (especially when taking into account the relic slot is already taken) I'm curious, when no other Space Marine faction has anything as powerful as the Martyrdom stratagem, how you can try and argue that's their weakness?

 

The funny thing is that Iron Hands also arguably have the best Eliminators...ha.  I mean, you're here telling us to use Eliminators, when IH have the best defense against Eliminators, and also the best Eliminators themselves.  Something is wrong here.

 

The other thing that you've consistently talked about was to "just play the mission, and ignore the Leviathan".  Sure, I guess, but you also have to understand how NOT FUN that type of game is.  Unless it's some kind of narrative, or just one off "for fun" type of game, no one wants to play against an un-killable behemoth walking up the field slaughtering their guys while they "just ignore it".  While this doesn't really apply to competitive environments, it's still something to consider.

 

 

As for tourney results, again: it's too early to read into those. The meta will adapt. New supplements, Psychic Awakening, and new codices are in the pipe. *Every* faction is getting new or expanded rules, we just have to give GW time to level the playing field before we start Chicken Little-ing about the sky falling.

 

The problem this time is that it's not 1 list that's combining a couple broken rules.  It's a variety of lists that are curbstomping people, because their rules are just too good.

[Kallas]

So you kill the screen/bodyguards first? Charge wtlith a unit or character that disallows Overwatch? Open with a more-threatening psychic power first (like Null Zone when in range of the Levi)? Area-effect mortal wound effects grow in utility the greater the potential number of units they can hit, and the Ironstone only has a 3" range do that'll be a tight formation. The Fists can OB from strat, OB from a WLT, and OB from an Impulsor all in one turn on the same point. That's a LOT of potential damage that bypasses Toughness, armor, Invulnerables, and the Ironstone.

 

Kill Screens first:

• Yup, reasonable idea. Depends entirely on the situation, terrain, mission, etc. It also ignores the possibility that one might not be able to actually wrap a Leviathan, because the controlling player might use some of their own models to make them difficult/impossible (I have used a three Land Raider list where with good positioning I can make it nigh impossible to wrap a Land Raider to prevent it falling back).

Charge with anti-Overwatch:

• Cool. And for those who don't have that capability..?

More threatening psychic power:

• Ok. And, uh, what is that? Your suggestion is using Null Zone when in range of a Levi: what power is more threatening than that? "More threatening" is extremely situational, just like Null Zone. Oh, you have Death Hex in the bank? Cool, just gonna deny that when it comes out rather than falling for any obvious bait, thanks.

Bombardments:

• Yup. But most of them trigger on a 4+ per unit (and are unreliable for it) as well as several having a variable radius (ie, a bad roll means you don't even tag multiple units), followed by generally pretty low volumes of mortal wounds (usually d3). Slap on Armour of Contempt/Reject The Flesh for extra resilience vs those MWs. Yeah, IF can do up to four Bombardments (OB, WLT, Impulsor and Damocles Rhino) if they want to, that doesn't make it a good or reliable strategy, let alone functional vs other armies.

 

This is critical thinking. This is tactics. With a little inventiveness, you can counter play any army and with sufficient planning, counter the counters.

 

Try it some time.

 

No, it's wild flailing that doesn't actually work out on the table.

 

Critical Thinking

The objective analysis and evaluation of an issue in order to form a judgement.

 

You putting out random 'answers' to the problems without any actual basis for effectiveness isn't critical thinking. A dozen tournament wins over a couple of weeks with the insight into the fact that those lists are an incredible proportion of top ten lists, as well as being very varied between them, is an objective analysis and evaluation; the conclusion that they're overpowered stems from a wealth of data being analysed by a large number of people, and a lot of those people (including some of the best players) coming to the same or similar results about the overall power level of specifically the Iron Hands is critical thinking.

 

Statements that people should "wait and see," and that "future changes will make it all ok," is not critical thinking.

 

Just saying it over and over doesn't make it so.

[MeltaRange]

So you kill the screen/bodyguards first? Charge wtlith a unit or character that disallows Overwatch? Open with a more-threatening psychic power first (like Null Zone when in range of the Levi)? Area-effect mortal wound effects grow in utility the greater the potential number of units they can hit, and the Ironstone only has a 3" range do that'll be a tight formation. The Fists can OB from strat, OB from a WLT, and OB from an Impulsor all in one turn on the same point. That's a LOT of potential damage that bypasses Toughness, armor, Invulnerables, and the Ironstone.

 

This is critical thinking. This is tactics. With a little inventiveness, you can counter play any army and with sufficient planning, counter the counters.

 

Try it some time.

 

Except that, just like against a 7th Tau gunline, people don't want to play a game where they are forced to rely on high chance of failure hail mary tactics while the other faction just walks up the board and shoots them dead.

 

Sure, every once in awhile it's fun and it does bring a element of pride into the mix if you do beat it, but this is setup to be an "over and over and over" type of thing where people just get tired of it. 

 

This is Riptide Wing but worse.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I guess we'll see how things shake out. I'm going to continue to moderate this thread as is my remit, but I'm bowing out of the conversation.

 

Carry on.

[emperorpants]

So you kill the screen/bodyguards first? Charge wtlith a unit or character that disallows Overwatch? Open with a more-threatening psychic power first (like Null Zone when in range of the Levi)? Area-effect mortal wound effects grow in utility the greater the potential number of units they can hit, and the Ironstone only has a 3" range do that'll be a tight formation. The Fists can OB from strat, OB from a WLT, and OB from an Impulsor all in one turn on the same point. That's a LOT of potential damage that bypasses Toughness, armor, Invulnerables, and the Ironstone.

 

This is critical thinking. This is tactics. With a little inventiveness, you can counter play any army and with sufficient planning, counter the counters.

 

Try it some time.

So while you are killing the screens what is the Levi doing?  That thing is an engine of destruction in shooting, it's going to be blowing you away as you are trying to get in charge range.  Remember it can move and shoot with no penalty and re roll 1s for free.  It's not going to just sit there and let you charge it.  As for charging it with something that denies overwatch, most armies don't have that, so lets not act like it is an easy to do tactic.  Null zone is a 6 inch range.  It's unlikely you are getting it into range of the castle.  If you do, fury of the ancients isn't really going to do much still.  Not to mention it can probably still be denied due to the fact that the strat is an extra deny.  

 

OB is still un reliable.  It's a 4+ to cause mortal wounds.  A 5+ on a character.  Those mortal wounds are also D3 which isn't really reliable.  Which might still be denied.  The tactic you mentioned is also something only IF can do.

[Ishagu]

One thing must be said. 40k is currently more popular than it has ever been. There are more players, tournaments and games being played. 2 weeks of 40k today is probably similar to two months or more worth of games back in 7th.

 

Lots of data has been collected in a short space of time. The concern is the sheer variety of IH lists that are smashing past the opposition, the core rules are simply too strong perhaps.

[MeltaRange]

If this FAQ came out, would people generally be happy on both sides?

 

Cogitated Martyrdom

Change the CP cost of this stratagem to 2

Add the following line: "This stratagem can only be used if the Tactical Doctrine is active."

 

Optimal Repulsion Doctrines

Add the following line: "This stratagem can only be used if the Tactical Doctrine is active."

 

Iron Father Feirros

Change the Points Cost to 180

 

Calculated Fury

Change this rule to the following: "Whilst the Devastator Doctrine is active, INFANTRY units can ignore the penalty for moving and firing Heavy Weapons.  In addition, if any friendly Iron Hands unit does not move in it's movement phase, re-roll all hit rolls of 1."

 

Souls of Iron

Add the following line: "This Stratagem can only be used once per battle."

 

March of the Ancients

Add the following line: "This Stratagem can only be used once per battle."

[TrawlingCleaner]

Having read through a lot of the replies and having thought/chatted about it with some mates, I do agree somethings need to change, IMO not just for the IH but a couple of things for the codex as a whole.

 

Feirros needs a point increase, nothing huge, maybe 160? Bring him inline with some of the beefier unique characters that have unique rules

 

The half damage strat shouldn't be allowed to be used on Relic keywords.

 

Ironstone shouldn't be used in conjunction with the half damage OR it's once per game OR you pick one unit it applies to. All three or a combo of two kills that relic IMO

 

The character dread strat is once per game

 

Flyers should not gain the doctrine bonus, for all chapters. I think Raven Guard Stormhawks/Stormtalons are real sleepers here as well as the IH being the obvious strong ones. Ultras are just behind IH on both variants of flyers with not really being needed to be babysat and generally struggling to miss whatever they target.

 

I do think the half damage strat should be when targetted rather than at the start of the turn if they make any nerfs to it tho. Atm it's very easy to bait the shots.

 

While there are some really good points made (a lot that I have seen the light of), there's a lot of hyperbole. ATM IH are domnating because they're easy to pick up and play with no realy downsides, hence the reason they're dominating in the tourneys. A couple of tweaks and I think they'll be good but not as dominant.

[MajorNese]

The funny thing is that Iron Hands also arguably have the best Eliminators...ha.  I mean, you're here telling us to use Eliminators, when IH have the best defense against Eliminators, and also the best Eliminators themselves.  Something is wrong here.

Just to chime in regarding the best Eliminators...the RG beg to differ. +1 to hit and +1 to wound against characters, as well as specialist wargear out-of-LoS ammo, and 2 relics/1 named character for targeting characters too make them arguably better at Eliminator-ing than IH.

 

Except for that, in one way the meta made it easy for IH - everyone went for 2D weaponry. Kill primaris, kill vehicles, kill pretty much anything rather effectively. Now that one relic counters 2D weaponry, it makes previous hard lists fall apart like wet paper. In that regard the meta will be able to re-adjust, given the less universal solutions with more damage. It won't fix all points mentioned here of course, but it would be a start. No question, Ironstone+Duty Eternal needs to be separated, and Duty Eternal removed from leviathans. Duty Eternal is fine on a regular dread or maybe Redemptor, but those are nowhere near the levi, both in resilience and firepower.

 

Also, why is everyone so obssessed with restricting which units can make use of Calculated Fury, when Scions of Girlyman does essentially the same thing?

It wasn't considered OP (by smurfs) when smurfs came out. Still, two chapters make massively more use of moving non-PotMS vehicles than all others do, and neither of those factions is especially famous for speed.

[TrawlingCleaner]

Also, why is everyone so obssessed with restricting which units can make use of Calculated Fury, when Scions of Girlyman does essentially the same thing?

It wasn't considered OP (by smurfs) when smurfs came out. Still, two chapters make massively more use of moving non-PotMS vehicles than all others do, and neither of those factions is especially famous for speed.

It's more that it's all the other parts of the CT mixed in with this, resilience AND mobility AND accuracy are hard to counter

[MeltaRange]

 

Also, why is everyone so obssessed with restricting which units can make use of Calculated Fury, when Scions of Girlyman does essentially the same thing?

It wasn't considered OP (by smurfs) when smurfs came out. Still, two chapters make massively more use of moving non-PotMS vehicles than all others do, and neither of those factions is especially famous for speed.

It's more that it's all the other parts of the CT mixed in with this, resilience AND mobility AND accuracy are hard to counter

 

 

AND active starting Turn 1.

[helterskelter]

So it appears imperial fists no longer cares about anything that negates 1 to damage with a higher AP output, damage yield and potential for more shots on any weapon anyway, with more or less guarantees to hitting and wounding. It was nice for iron hands to feel OP for a few days