Iron Hands nerf?

[Ishagu]

My changes would be:

 

 

Calculated Fury:

The unique doctrine should only apply to infantry. Iron Hands already have a powerful chapter tactic that bolsters their vehicles.

 

Iron Father Feirros:

Increase cost to 220 points. Feirros is the best Astartes named character in terms of utility (In the HQ slot), specifically when combined with Iron Hands tactics and rules. His costs need to reflect this simple fact.

 

March of the Ancients:

Change to 2CP, and can only be used once per battle. At the moment if you have a Dread with less than 10 wounds in your list you automatically use this strat. At least make me think about it.

 

Cogitated Martyrdom:

Change to 3CP. It costs 3CP to make some Intercessors target a character. Make it cost 3CP to negate their attacks in return. Alternatively change it to 2CP but limit's it's use to the Tactical Doctrine.

 

Machine Empathy:

Change to 2CP. Far too powerful when combined with Feirros and the psychic power

 

Iron Stone:

Change the effect to work only once per battle. Activate at the start of a turn of the controlling player's choosing. This is currently the best relic in the game, it need to be toned down.

 

Souls of Iron:

Change to once per battle, or change cost to 3CP. In combination with a CP re-roll and regular deny-the-witch this makes Iron Hands shut down psykers too reliably.

 

Blessing of the Machine God:

Change to WC6

 

Psysteel Armour:

Change to WC7

Edited October 16, 2019 by Ishagu

[quasistellar]

So it appears imperial fists no longer cares about anything that negates 1 to damage with a higher AP output, damage yield and potential for more shots on any weapon anyway, with more or less guarantees to hitting and wounding. It was nice for iron hands to feel OP for a few days

 

Massed heavy bolters with the Praetorian's Wrath strat will be great vs Iron Hands (and everyone else, really).  IH will still need adjustment, though.

[MeltaRange]

 

So it appears imperial fists no longer cares about anything that negates 1 to damage with a higher AP output, damage yield and potential for more shots on any weapon anyway, with more or less guarantees to hitting and wounding. It was nice for iron hands to feel OP for a few days

 

Massed heavy bolters with the Praetorian's Wrath strat will be great vs Iron Hands (and everyone else, really).  IH will still need adjustment, though.

 

 

What you put in parenthesis there is the problem.

Edited October 16, 2019 by MeltaRange

[MeltaRange]

As much as I think Iron Hands are way too good, I'm bracing myself for nothing to change, at least for awhile, simply because this is clearly a business decision by GW. Clearly, Space Marines with the last codex were not selling well enough, so they made them OP. If everyone buys a new army of the newest, most expensive models GW produces, that's an excellent thing for them.

 

I mean look at what's good.  Executioners ($100 kit), Eliminators ($50 for 3), Centurions ($75 for 3), Iron Father... ($40 for ONE model) I mean these things are flying off the shelves. Combine this with the terrible Eldar box they just created, which is essentially 12 new models combined with a bunch of crap that they had sitting in their warehouses for $230, and you begin to see the reality of the situation.

[Ishagu]

GW have recently stated that Marines are far and away the best sellers.

 

The speedy Scorpius nerf and delay of the Iron Hands FAQ makes me think they will tone them down.

[brÖtherIrön]

My changes would be:

 

 

Calculated Fury:

The unique doctrine should only apply to infantry. Iron Hands already have a powerful chapter tactic that bolsters their vehicles.

 

Iron Father Feirros:

Increase cost to 220 points. Feirros is the best Astartes named character in terms of utility (In the HQ slot), specifically when combined with Iron Hands tactics and rules. His costs need to reflect this simple fact.

 

March of the Ancients:

Change to 2CP, and can only be used once per battle. At the moment if you have a Dread with less than 10 wounds in your list you automatically use this strat. At least make me think about it.

 

Cogitated Martyrdom:

Change to 3CP. It costs 3CP to make some Intercessors target a character. Make it cost 3CP to negate their attacks in return. Alternatively change it to 2CP but limit's it's use to the Tactical Doctrine.

 

Machine Empathy:

Change to 2CP. Far too powerful when combined with Feirros and the psychic power

 

Iron Stone:

Change the effect to work only once per battle. Activate at the start of a turn of the controlling player's choosing. This is currently the best relic in the game, it need to be toned down.

 

Souls of Iron:

Change to once per battle, or change cost to 3CP. In combination with a CP re-roll and regular deny-the-witch this makes Iron Hands shut down psykers too reliably.

 

Blessing of the Machine God:

Change to WC6

 

Psysteel Armour:

Change to WC7

Boy oh boy, somebody does not like Iron Hands, like a lot. Are you sure you do not play Ultras to its fullest? I mean, what do you offer, give Guillman another 100pts increase, -2 to hit if you fall back. Where is the balance? "We" cried a lot about Ultras and I saw a :cuss ton of Ultras. To be honest, I think Repulsors will rise, Leviathans and Feirros in points and that is about it. We will get the same treatment as Ultras did. We will get not worse rules wise but we pay in points. I hope everyone is happy. If you really, really have a problem with Feirros, you better get your Scouts/Eliminators. If you do not want it, you better do not to castle up against hands but try to play your :cuss ton of cool strategems Ultras provide and play the mission.

[Ishagu]

If everything I listed about happens, Iron Hands will still be the best codex chapter.

[brÖtherIrön]

 

This is confirmation bias. You and everyone else parroting this line isn't analyzing the situation completely.

 

Consider that the supplement has been available for what, less than a month? The tournament meta needs time to adapt to what IH bring to tabletop. Give it more time and I bet we'll see that win rate drop as functions of 1. the low-skill net-listers getting on board and 2. the playerbase developing counter-tactics.

Really?  Going by that logic, can't we also say that IH players just need more time to figure out even more powerful combos?  Give it more time and I bet we'll see MORE broken combos that no one has thought of yet.  Also, of course the win rate will drop some.  That is a given.  The problem is if the meta becomes IH vs IH things get boring real quick.  

 

I've already seen reports that tourney players are either switching to IH or are going to stop going to tourneys all together unless something is done about IH.  People at the local level are saying they straight up won't play IH because it's JUST NOT FUN.  All indications seem to be that the way IH currently work is not good for the health of the game.

 

Again, I'm not trying to be mean or rag on the IH.  I'm totally cool with them being the best.  It's just they are so much better than everyone else it's stupid.  Again, the tourney results speak for themselves.  

 

Also, it seems like there are a lot of goal posts being moved in this discussion.  Not by you, so please don't take it that way, but in general.  At first when we were claiming IH were going to be op the response was to wait until we had some tourney results.  Fair enough.  Now we have tourney results and it confirms everything we said and then some.  Now the response seems to be either wait for more tourney results or just a straight up attitude of "Let IH be op, it's our turn to ruin the game for people!"  which isn't healthy for the game at all.  

 

So I guess my honest question becomes this: How long and how many tourney results do we need to be able to declare IH op and that their current rules make for an unpleasant experience?  Again, it's an honest question that will help move the convo forward. 

 

 

Iron Hands are over represented, therefore it is more likely them to win. I recently attended one tourney which was won by Admech+Knights soup, and yes, there were 4 Iron Hands. I posted this list on my "impression" in the IH Forum recently. It is weak to refuse to play against Iron Hands, we also did have to accept Magnus, Mortarion and Guilliman and their minions and people still won against them. A very good tip was, Harlequin could easily win against "standard" Hands list. If you play Marines, you better do not play the "castle up" game, since Hands do it better. Leviathans are the new Magnus, but you do not have to kill Magnus, to win the game, you feel me?

[Ishagu]

Actually if a strong faction is used by many players it also drops their overall win %

 

Iron Hands have a 80% win rate, meaning even average players are over performing well above even what Ynnari were able to do at the height of their power.

Edited October 16, 2019 by Ishagu

[brÖtherIrön]

Actually if a strong faction is used by many players it also drops their overall win %

 

Iron Hands have a 80% win rate, meaning even average players are over performing well above even what Ynnari were able to do at the height of their power.

If Hands continue to be the new hotness, do you have to change your list/faction or do we have to change hands a lot? I do not know, but I never considered to play Guilliman and played Hands to its best, early 8th. Think about it. Talk about that in your Ultras Forum instead of solely relying on "Us" to get worse. Every player became deaf if we mentioned "how is it possible that Cawl and Guilliman is on every damn battlefield?"

[Kallas]

If Hands continue to be the new hotness, do you have to change your list/faction or do we have to change hands a lot? I do not know, but I never considered to play Guilliman and played Hands to its best, early 8th. Think about it. Talk about that in your Ultras Forum instead of solely relying on "Us" to get worse. Every player became deaf if we mentioned "how is it possible that Cawl and Guilliman is on every damn battlefield?"

 

Um, what do you think happened to Guilliman?

 

Four nerfs. He got a points increase; then a points increase; then the units that were taken got points increases; and then most recently his aura got nerfed.

 

Bad example, because it's exactly what Iron Hands need.

[MeltaRange]

I honestly have no idea how I would beat a Triple Executioner, Iron Father, Ironstone list right now.  The only thing I could bank on would be a mistake by my opponent.

[Ishagu]

I have no problem with Iron Hands being the best faction in the game. I do have a serious problem with the gap between them and the other factions, however. They should be toned down to a level where they remain powerful and thematic, but not where they completely dominate the game.

[brÖtherIrön]

 

If Hands continue to be the new hotness, do you have to change your list/faction or do we have to change hands a lot? I do not know, but I never considered to play Guilliman and played Hands to its best, early 8th. Think about it. Talk about that in your Ultras Forum instead of solely relying on "Us" to get worse. Every player became deaf if we mentioned "how is it possible that Cawl and Guilliman is on every damn battlefield?"

 

Um, what do you think happened to Guilliman?

 

Four nerfs. He got a points increase; then a points increase; then the units that were taken got points increases; and then most recently his aura got nerfed.

 

Bad example, because it's exactly what Iron Hands need.

 

To be honest, I do not play Feirros and I really care not about him and Primaris in general, so GW can make him useless. I will eat popcorn and watch it burn, but the rest will not happen. If they nerf Levis, be my guest. I will NOT touch Levis since they are TOO HOT. Both units scream to be nerfed in some way. The rest is fine. If your Feirros + Repulsors will get 200 pointes get more expensive everyone can be happy and people will play Hands more creative like Bikes or Lands Speeders.

[Kallas]

To be honest, I do not play Feirros and I really care not about him and Primaris in general, so GW can make him useless. I will eat popcorn and watch it burn, but the rest will not happen. If they nerf Levis, be my guest. I will NOT touch Levis since they are TOO HOT. Both units scream to be nerfed in some way. The rest is fine. If your Feirros + Repulsors will get 200 pointes get more expensive everyone can be happy and people will play Hands more creative like Bikes or Lands Speeders.

 

Er...ok? So? Just because you personally won't use something, that doesn't mean that Iron Hands aren't overly powerful.

 

The rest isn't fine. Iron Hands Flyer lists are utterly brutal, and that's not even a whole list; it's like 600-odd points, leaving loads for other stuff. If Repulsors get a bunch more expensive, then they're functionally worthless for anyone that isn't Iron Hands.

 

The core issue isn't the unit being used: it's the Iron Hands rules stacking way too high on them.

[Ishagu]

The units shouldn't be nerfed. It's the Iron Hands rules, Doctrines, strats, etc that need adjustments.

 

The units are all perfectly fine with others, actually Repulsors are a bit over costed.

 

A Regular Repulsor has a 3+ save, no invul. Now take Iron Hands rule stacking:

 

-Ignore wounds on a 6+

-Profile doesn't degrade

-Overwatch on a 5+ or even 4+

-5+ Invul

-Reduce Damage by 1

-Repaired 6+D3 wounds a turn

-Always hit on a 2+

-Improve Save by 1

-Natural re-roll 1s

-Same re roll auras as other chapters

 

Now that same Repulsor is as tough as a Knight with better firepower.

 

The above rules are mostly auras, and can be provided by 3 cheap HQs and can buff multiple units around them. The character can't easily be targeted because other units can take wounds for them.

 

It's just an example of how much they can stack on units, and frankly when you write it down it's ridiculous lol

 

This is the extra stacking causing the problems.

Edited October 16, 2019 by Ishagu

[brÖtherIrön]

 

To be honest, I do not play Feirros and I really care not about him and Primaris in general, so GW can make him useless. I will eat popcorn and watch it burn, but the rest will not happen. If they nerf Levis, be my guest. I will NOT touch Levis since they are TOO HOT. Both units scream to be nerfed in some way. The rest is fine. If your Feirros + Repulsors will get 200 pointes get more expensive everyone can be happy and people will play Hands more creative like Bikes or Lands Speeders.

 

Er...ok? So? Just because you personally won't use something, that doesn't mean that Iron Hands aren't overly powerful.

 

The rest isn't fine. Iron Hands Flyer lists are utterly brutal, and that's not even a whole list; it's like 600-odd points, leaving loads for other stuff. If Repulsors get a bunch more expensive, then they're functionally worthless for anyone that isn't Iron Hands.

 

The core issue isn't the unit being used: it's the Iron Hands rules stacking way too high on them.

 

Well, I would have to pay a lot for Razorbacks with Assault Cannons because of Ultras and my dear Fire Raptor....

[MeltaRange]

To be honest, I do not play Feirros and I really care not about him and Primaris in general, so GW can make him useless. I will eat popcorn and watch it burn, but the rest will not happen. If they nerf Levis, be my guest. I will NOT touch Levis since they are TOO HOT. Both units scream to be nerfed in some way. The rest is fine. If your Feirros + Repulsors will get 200 pointes get more expensive everyone can be happy and people will play Hands more creative like Bikes or Lands Speeders.

 

 

You mean the Land Speeders that are better than White Scars Land Speeders?  

[Kallas]

Well, I would have to pay a lot for Razorbacks with Assault Cannons because of Ultras and my dear Fire Raptor....

 

As someone who hasn't played Ultramarines until the new Codex (I switched between Blood Angels, Space Wolves and Deathwatch) the Razorbacks are just fine at their current cost. The Fire Raptor is certainly too expensive.

 

But that actually makes your point utterly irrelevant: you complain about your units costing more because of one specific interaction that you didn't use; yet you want that to happen to everyone else?

 

Yes, it happened previously in 8th Ed, that doesn't mean it should have happened and it certainly doesn't mean it should happen again: it absolutely shouldn't.

[brÖtherIrön]

 

To be honest, I do not play Feirros and I really care not about him and Primaris in general, so GW can make him useless. I will eat popcorn and watch it burn, but the rest will not happen. If they nerf Levis, be my guest. I will NOT touch Levis since they are TOO HOT. Both units scream to be nerfed in some way. The rest is fine. If your Feirros + Repulsors will get 200 pointes get more expensive everyone can be happy and people will play Hands more creative like Bikes or Lands Speeders.

 

 

You mean the Land Speeders that are better than White Scars Land Speeders?  

 

I do not play Iron Hands the classic way, but my list got cheaper and CHEAPER all the time. I think GW also hints you a way, which lists are rewarding and which are no longer satisfying for them to provide, since people bought their stuff and now can nerf stuff pointwise. I try to stay below the nerf-hammer. And yest, it is an amzing thing that Attack Bikes and Land Speeders are better for Hands.

[Ahzek451]

My changes would be:

 

 

Calculated Fury:

The unique doctrine should only apply to infantry. Iron Hands already have a powerful chapter tactic that bolsters their vehicles.

 

Iron Father Feirros:

Increase cost to 220 points. Feirros is the best Astartes named character in terms of utility (In the HQ slot), specifically when combined with Iron Hands tactics and rules. His costs need to reflect this simple fact.

 

March of the Ancients:

Change to 2CP, and can only be used once per battle. At the moment if you have a Dread with less than 10 wounds in your list you automatically use this strat. At least make me think about it.

 

Cogitated Martyrdom:

Change to 3CP. It costs 3CP to make some Intercessors target a character. Make it cost 3CP to negate their attacks in return. Alternatively change it to 2CP but limit's it's use to the Tactical Doctrine.

 

Machine Empathy:

Change to 2CP. Far too powerful when combined with Feirros and the psychic power

 

Iron Stone:

Change the effect to work only once per battle. Activate at the start of a turn of the controlling player's choosing. This is currently the best relic in the game, it need to be toned down.

 

Souls of Iron:

Change to once per battle, or change cost to 3CP. In combination with a CP re-roll and regular deny-the-witch this makes Iron Hands shut down psykers too reliably.

 

Blessing of the Machine God:

Change to WC6

 

Psysteel Armour:

Change to WC7

Having fought the new iron hands and been pitted against the unkillable leviathan...While I agree some adjustments need to be made, what you suggest(if all would apply) is way too much. I daresay you have gone even beyond the GW hammer to the commisar. 

 

For example, most of the warp charge adjustments are unnecessary. The psychic table is fine and not an issue.

 

220 points for Feirros? Waaaaay too much here. try again.especially since he isn't even showing up in a lot of top lists. 

 

Machine empathy is fine, leave at current cp. 

 

Ironstone could use a nerf, but not once per battle. 

 

Souls of iron is fine. Abilities that shutdown powers exist in other armies, as a psyker player, one just needs to adjust and time powers accordingly. 

 

March of the ancients should simply be limited to one use. 

 

Calculated furry...on the fence about. But I would suggest keeping as is, allowing units to move and fire heavy weapons. BUT only allowing re-rolls of 1 if the unit sits still. Nice little middle ground. 

 

Overall though, a lot of these do not tackle the real issues that seem to be cropping up in the recent top lists. Only a few do.

Edited October 16, 2019 by Ahzek451

[Ishagu]

The problem is they are running wildly different, super powerful lists.

 

The flyer spam super list doesn't rely on any relics or auras, it's just a byproduct of their incredible doctrine and chapter tactic. Why are Iron Hands the best pilots?

Why do they have better attack bikes and Stalker Intercessors than White Scars and Reven Guard respectively?

[brÖtherIrön]

The problem is they are running wildly different, super powerful lists.

 

The flyer spam super list doesn't rely on any relics or auras, it's just a byproduct of their incredible doctrine and chapter tactic. Why are Iron Hands the best pilots?

Why do they have better attack bikes and Stalker Intercessors than White Scars and Reven Guard respectively?

I still think people are too lazy to point out what Raven Guard, Scars, Ultras and in the next time Fists and Salamanders are better at.

[Ahzek451]

I certainly wouldn't mind if the doctrine boost did not apply to certain units like flyer flyers. Iron Hands are not notable for speeders, flyers, etc. So limit the use to keyword: infantry, walker, tank, etc. 

[Kallas]

I still think people are too lazy to point out what Raven Guard, Scars, Ultras and in the next time Fists and Salamanders are better at.

 

No, it's just that the things they're better at are more niche: Iron Hands have a heavy punch right off the bat, and they just keep doing it. White Scars can do a lot of damage in melee, and are good at getting there; Iron Hands do that damage output from 36" away, and they do it better. Ultramarines do Aggressors better...and uh, that's about it, I guess. Well they can do auras a bit better (but Iron Hands don't really need Captains, for one thing). Raven Guard do snipers better and killing characters; Iron Hands obliterate the army, so that those buffing characters don't have anything left.

 

So, uh, do you want to explain what you mean, rather than impuning that other people are stupid and don't know what to do besides call for nerfs?