Vermintide Posted November 28, 2019 Share Posted November 28, 2019 Sweet baby Emperor. We're certainly not lacking for weight of dice these days then. That's enough to make my Word Bearers friend nemesis jealous.Okay, so here's another thing- If I have read and interpreted the rules for Chaplain litanies correctly, you can't recite them when deep striking, since the roll for the litany takes place before movement phase, and he wouldn't be on the table yet.This presents an awkward conflict of synergy, I think. I want a Chaplain with my DC not just because it's fluffy (hell, you HAD to take a chaplain with them in the past) but also because he's their perfect buff unit, and he gives them a nice LD boost. But I also want to deep strike them because with the new rules, waiting for turn 3 gets the most out of any CC unit. Also, chaplains are the best unit in the game. Change my mind.I guess I could see how they might have done it as an intentional balancing mechanic to stop things getting too dirty, but I'm not so sure. I think they might just not have thought about it. What do you guys think? Is it something that bugs you or are we getting enough other toys that it's not an issue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted November 28, 2019 Share Posted November 28, 2019 So, let me get this straight- We get an extra attack on top of our extra attack, and death company get an extra extra attack on top of their extra extra attack? I am a Neanderthal who can't count past five without needing a sit down and some Pringles, someone please explain this in easy words for me. 2 attacks base from being Death Company. Chainsword +1. 3 Attacks. Shock Assault +1 attack on charge(or get charged). 4 attacks. Savage Echoes +1 attack on charge(or get charged). 5 attacks. Black Rage on the Charge specifically. 6 attacks. So 6 chain sword attacks for Death Company, or 5 with a weapon like a Thunder Hammer in ideal conditions. Did I count that right? That's correct. 2 base +1 chainsword +1 black rage +1 shock assault +1 savage echos (turn 3+) = 6 attacks ....and if we want to go plaid with ridiculousness, then +1A for Sanguinor aura and +1A for Unleash Rage psychic power for a truly-40k-level-of-over-the-top 8A per model. And then double that for fighting twice. :P Aothaine 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted November 28, 2019 Share Posted November 28, 2019 Sweet baby Emperor. We're certainly not lacking for weight of dice these days then. That's enough to make my Word Bearers friend nemesis jealous. Okay, so here's another thing- If I have read and interpreted the rules for Chaplain litanies correctly, you can't recite them when deep striking, since the roll for the litany takes place before movement phase, and he wouldn't be on the table yet. This presents an awkward conflict of synergy, I think. I want a Chaplain with my DC not just because it's fluffy (hell, you HAD to take a chaplain with them in the past) but also because he's their perfect buff unit, and he gives them a nice LD boost. But I also want to deep strike them because with the new rules, waiting for turn 3 gets the most out of any CC unit. Also, chaplains are the best unit in the game. Change my mind. I guess I could see how they might have done it as an intentional balancing mechanic to stop things getting too dirty, but I'm not so sure. I think they might just not have thought about it. What do you guys think? Is it something that bugs you or are we getting enough other toys that it's not an issue? Just deploy your Chaplain regularly and let him jump to where your DC are dropping via Stratagem the same turn. You might not be able to target them with most of the powers that turn but you can activate the litany that increases the charge range since it's actually an aura and doesn't require a target. Aztek and Karhedron 2 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dont-Be-Haten Posted November 28, 2019 Share Posted November 28, 2019 Honestly I'm not so sure we even need the super doctrine. I feel like allying in Imperial fists for seismic devastation would be a better option than pure BA. We are in a weird spot without further detail outside of that. But allying in imperial fists keeps the combat doctrines and adds a layer of both great shooting with mortal wounds and great melee centered units. I suspect for some that will be the way to play them going forward. Always the allied crutch.* *in competitive scenes anyway. Only know for sure next week. I'm going to pretend that this is relevant to this thread just by restating that the addition of Angels of Death means we can do stuff like that now. Variations of that spearhead have done well with the rest being White Scars, so it should work well with us too. No need to pretend. That's part of the release. Gaining super doctrine for BA dowsnt matter. When you're looking at diminishing returns from attacks. Combat doctrine is the most i.portant thing for BA from psychic awakening. The fact it opens up the ability to ally in superior astartes is excellent. Especially with gaining vigilus detachments without losing combat doctrines. Like seige breaker cohort IF dumping out tons of shots and mortal wounds on things like knights; while one of the strongest loyalist melee centered armies has excellent counters. Especially with the new tricks awarded to us. From a purely competitive view that's probably the best method for Competitive BA going forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aztek Posted November 28, 2019 Share Posted November 28, 2019 So, let me get this straight- We get an extra attack on top of our extra attack, and death company get an extra extra attack on top of their extra extra attack? I am a Neanderthal who can't count past five without needing a sit down and some Pringles, someone please explain this in easy words for me. 2 attacks base from being Death Company. Chainsword +1. 3 Attacks. Shock Assault +1 attack on charge(or get charged). 4 attacks. Savage Echoes +1 attack on charge(or get charged). 5 attacks. Black Rage on the Charge specifically. 6 attacks. So 6 chain sword attacks for Death Company, or 5 with a weapon like a Thunder Hammer in ideal conditions. Did I count that right? That's correct. 2 base +1 chainsword +1 black rage +1 shock assault +1 savage echos (turn 3+) = 6 attacks ....and if we want to go plaid with ridiculousness, then +1A for Sanguinor aura and +1A for Unleash Rage psychic power for a truly-40k-level-of-over-the-top 8A per model. I have Sanguinius to proxy as the Sanguinor, and you're crazy if you don't think that's happening! Very excited for that. SnorriSnorrison and Dolchiate Remembrancer 2 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnorriSnorrison Posted November 28, 2019 Share Posted November 28, 2019 I’ve been thinking about how to make *that* turn 3 charge from DS, including Vanguard, SG and DC. You’d have to remove chaff, armour and perhaps big targets in turn 1 and 2. You’ll need some boots on the ground for certain; Scouts, Tactical Marines, Intercessors. Then tanks for fire support. Get Chaplains ready, and perhaps haul a Smashy across the field to take out a big nasty where lascannons fail. If you manage to survive without 1/3 To 1/2 of your army for two turns, the third one is going to be one big deepstrike massacre. However, I think that is too big of a delay, and very predictable for your opponent. Turn 2 would be optimal for the attack from DS, and countercharge again in turn 3 with the extra attacks from the doctrine. Perhaps some support from bikes/attack bikes and such. Can’t wait to get a game in, these rule leaks really get some juices flowing! Aztek 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indefragable Posted November 28, 2019 Share Posted November 28, 2019 (edited) Based on conversation* earlier on this thread, my (new) understanding of Canticle of Hate Litany is that since it effects units in the Charge phase, you chant it at the beginning of the Battle Round, then move him as normal, then when it comes time to declare charges, units within 6” of his updated position are then effected. *shoutout to @SnorriSnorrison and @Bluejayjunior Wording in C:SM 2.0: Hidden Content "Canticle of Hate Bellowing his hatred of the foe, the Chaplain leads his brothers in the wholesale destruction of the enemy. If this litany is inspiring, add 2 to charge rolls made friendly <CHAPTER> units whilst they are within 6" of this model. In addition, when a friendly <CHAPTER> unit makes a pile-in or consolidate move within 6" of this model, models in that unit can move up to an additional 3". This is not cumulative with any other ability that adds to a unit's charge roll or increases the distance it can pile in or consolidate." On further reading, where it says "not cumulative," I have to think that updated Red Thirst's +1 to Charge is exempt from this restriction/we can get a total of +3 to charges when using this....otherwise it seems just lame and unnecessarily restrictive to us, the chapter that arguably benefits the most from it. I would argue that a single unit cannot be affected by both this Litany and the rumored Relic banner that adds +2 to charges. Edit: added link to original conversation and exact wording from Canticle of Hate Litany from Codex: Space Marines 2.0 Edited November 28, 2019 by Indefragable Aztek and Dolchiate Remembrancer 2 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aztek Posted November 28, 2019 Share Posted November 28, 2019 (edited) Based on conversation earlier on this thread, my (new) understanding of Canticle of Hate Litany is that since it effects units in the Charge phase, you chant it at the beginning of the Battle Round, then move him as normal, then when it comes time to declare charges, units within 6” of his updated position are then effected. Yeah I think that'd work out great. Especially good for Lemartes in my list! Edited November 28, 2019 by Aztek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted November 28, 2019 Share Posted November 28, 2019 Based on conversation earlier on this thread, my (new) understanding of Canticle of Hate Litany is that since it effects units in the Charge phase, you chant it at the beginning of the Battle Round, then move him as normal, then when it comes time to declare charges, units within 6” of his updated position are then effected. Yep, if it's the same as from the vanilla codex: CANTICLE OF HATE Bellowing his hatred of the foe, the Chaplain leads his brothers in the wholesale destruction of the enemy. If this litany is inspiring, add 2 to charge rolls made for friendly <CHAPTER> units whilst they are within 6" of this model. In addition, when a friendly <CHAPTER> unit makes a pile-in or consolidate move within 6"ofthis model, models in that unit can move up to an additional 3".This is not cumulative with any other ability that adds to a unit’s charge roll or increases the distance it can pile in or consolidate. So you could recite a litany, then Upon Wings of Fire your Chaplain to the Death Company Drop Zone for them to enjoy the 7" charge. Re-rollable if it's Lemartes :) who could chant a second Litany I think too! Maybe Manta of Strength to turn him into a real monster. Morticon 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indefragable Posted November 28, 2019 Share Posted November 28, 2019 Super dirty combo would be if +1 To Wound in shooting against closest enemy unit with a melta drop/jump vet squad.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted November 28, 2019 Share Posted November 28, 2019 Super dirty combo would be if +1 To Wound in shooting against closest enemy unit with a melta drop/jump vet squad.... I thought of that too but sadly that one takes effect as soon as the litany is inspiring. So your target would need to be within 6" when the Litany is inspiring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hintzy Posted November 28, 2019 Share Posted November 28, 2019 Honestly I'm not so sure we even need the super doctrine. I feel like allying in Imperial fists for seismic devastation would be a better option than pure BA. We are in a weird spot without further detail outside of that. But allying in imperial fists keeps the combat doctrines and adds a layer of both great shooting with mortal wounds and great melee centered units. I suspect for some that will be the way to play them going forward. Always the allied crutch.* *in competitive scenes anyway. Only know for sure next week. I'm going to pretend that this is relevant to this thread just by restating that the addition of Angels of Death means we can do stuff like that now. Variations of that spearhead have done well with the rest being White Scars, so it should work well with us too.No need to pretend. That's part of the release. Gaining super doctrine for BA dowsnt matter. When you're looking at diminishing returns from attacks. I was just trying to acknowledge that I'm aware most people here it seems don't care for competitive play and offer that as a bit of a sub-textual apology for bringing up rude list ideas in an otherwise very productive and inclusive thread. Morticon 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dont-Be-Haten Posted November 28, 2019 Share Posted November 28, 2019 Honestly I'm not so sure we even need the super doctrine. I feel like allying in Imperial fists for seismic devastation would be a better option than pure BA. We are in a weird spot without further detail outside of that. But allying in imperial fists keeps the combat doctrines and adds a layer of both great shooting with mortal wounds and great melee centered units. I suspect for some that will be the way to play them going forward. Always the allied crutch.* *in competitive scenes anyway. Only know for sure next week. I'm going to pretend that this is relevant to this thread just by restating that the addition of Angels of Death means we can do stuff like that now. Variations of that spearhead have done well with the rest being White Scars, so it should work well with us too.No need to pretend. That's part of the release. Gaining super doctrine for BA dowsnt matter. When you're looking at diminishing returns from attacks. I was just trying to acknowledge that I'm aware most people here it seems don't care for competitive play and offer that as a bit of a sub-textual apology for bringing up rude list ideas in an otherwise very productive and inclusive thread. Morticon 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aothaine Posted November 28, 2019 Share Posted November 28, 2019 I'm not sure about anyone else... but holy hell! Primaris Death Company!!! So ready to paint up my boys in black! Pretty sure we have so many options now with just this simple update. Still think our codex needs to have a full update, but this is mainly because I want good lore updates for Flesh Tearers and Blood Angels. Also, since we now know the Flesh Tearer rules from coming in the Blood of Baal, I'm wondering what the White Dwarf will have. Would be really cool to get a special mission for Flesh Tearers. :D Inquisitor Eisenhorn 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blindhamster Posted November 29, 2019 Share Posted November 29, 2019 I'm not sure about anyone else... but holy hell! Primaris Death Company!!! So ready to paint up my boys in black! Pretty sure we have so many options now with just this simple update. Still think our codex needs to have a full update, but this is mainly because I want good lore updates for Flesh Tearers and Blood Angels. Also, since we now know the Flesh Tearer rules from coming in the Blood of Baal, I'm wondering what the White Dwarf will have. Would be really cool to get a special mission for Flesh Tearers. wouldn't be surprised if its like the "Primaris Dark Angels" thing from right after codex marines came out, that was announced in a similar way and just turned out to be some vague lore stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hintzy Posted November 29, 2019 Share Posted November 29, 2019 I think the one thing we need that we haven't heard of yet is an ability/stratagem to keep something from falling back. If we get that I think we'll have gotten everything we really need. Morticon 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aothaine Posted November 29, 2019 Share Posted November 29, 2019 wouldn't be surprised if its like the "Primaris Dark Angels" thing from right after codex marines came out, that was announced in a similar way and just turned out to be some vague lore stuff. I am totally fine with lore stuff though lol! :D Would love a Primaris Seth though *nudge any GW employees looking at this* Blindhamster 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blindhamster Posted November 29, 2019 Share Posted November 29, 2019 dont think we'll see anything else related to the sons of sanguinius rule or model wise for quite some time after this weekend honestly. But yes, new lore is always welcome! I'll probably grab the WD too :D I think the one thing we need that we haven't heard of yet is an ability/stratagem to keep something from falling back. If we get that I think we'll have gotten everything we really need. And Veteran Intercessors!! Seriously, i cannot stress enough how much more useful and how much better veteran intercessors are, not to mention golden helmet dudes rock. But Troop Choice 3 attack base intercessors with better leadership is such a good thing! Panzer and Aothaine 2 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aothaine Posted November 29, 2019 Share Posted November 29, 2019 Seriously, i cannot stress enough how much more useful and how much better veteran intercessors are, not to mention golden helmet dudes rock. Especially neonmole's Golden Helmeted Angels. Still trying to recreate that look. So beautiful! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted November 29, 2019 Share Posted November 29, 2019 I think the one thing we need that we haven't heard of yet is an ability/stratagem to keep something from falling back. If we get that I think we'll have gotten everything we really need. I feel like we'd be treading on BT toes there, sadly :/ Hope we do get it, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted November 29, 2019 Share Posted November 29, 2019 I don't think such a thing is needed considering how much damage we do anyway. We just smash almost everything the first round of combat as is. :D Karhedron 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aothaine Posted November 29, 2019 Share Posted November 29, 2019 (edited) I don't think such a thing is needed considering how much damage we do anyway. We just smash almost everything the first round of combat as is. Yeah. Seth's ability might actually be useful for a change. Finally have enough punch to wipe a unit out pretty easily now. Especially with buffs Death Company. The horror on the opponents face when you tell him those 15 Death Company with Chainswords have 8 attacks each, will then proceed to wipe out what ever unit they touch and trigger Lord of Slaughter to fight again... costing zero cp. The grin on my face cannot get any bigger right now! edit: Right! And drop pods deliver Seth to the front lines on turn one with body guards, sang priests, and a chaplain. Huzzzah! Edited November 29, 2019 by Aothaine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neuralshock Posted November 29, 2019 Author Share Posted November 29, 2019 I am now sitting and waiting patiently for YouTubers who get advance copies to post reviews. However [Red thirst intensifies] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loishy Posted November 29, 2019 Share Posted November 29, 2019 Lot of good stuff in this chapter approved. Maybe I'm going to finally paint my Sanguinary Guard with this drop of points. Did we know the new melee weapons cost ? Like Power claw or power fist ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted November 29, 2019 Share Posted November 29, 2019 (edited) Did we know the new melee weapons cost ? Like Power claw or power fist ?The majority of melee weapons don't seem to be changing much. Power sword, axe and fist are still the same. Encarmine weapons have come down, as have SW Frost weapons. Edited November 29, 2019 by Karhedron Aothaine and Loishy 2 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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