Dagoth Ur Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 The question of "is it needed" is an utterly pointless one. Might as well ask that about the whole Heresy line. Could've easily stayed the little blurb it was back in the 90s/early oughts. But it didn't. Somebody wrote it and this is what we have now. The scattering of the primarchs used to be due to Chaos in the hard-lore, now it isnt. Or at least not fully. At the end of the day it doesn't change anything - the primarchs were scattered nonetheless and Chaos might have had one hand or another in it. This detail is about on the same level of importance of the Ultramarine colours being blue because of x or because of y. Doesn't matter, they are blue. It's a neat lil' detail, sure, but its not a game-changer of narrative metaphysics. As for spoilers, everything I have read thus far, I don't really mind. Bar Unremembered Empire, I have thoroughly enjoyed what Abnett has written thus far so I'll stay any type of judgement until after I have read it - once the damned book falls into my hands. Lucerne, Tymell, RedFurioso and 3 others 6 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359800-siege-of-terra-saturnine-by-dan-abnett/page/12/#findComment-5494598 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mc warhammer Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 This detail is about on the same level of importance of the Ultramarine colours being blue because of x or because of y. Doesn't matter, they are blue. It's a neat lil' detail, sure, but its not a game-changer of narrative metaphysics. chaos made them blue Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359800-siege-of-terra-saturnine-by-dan-abnett/page/12/#findComment-5494599 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Golem Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 ...The scattering of the primarchs used to be due to Chaos in the hard-lore, now it isnt. Or at least not fully. At the end of the day it doesn't change anything - ... It does though, and it just irk's me that of anyone to do this, its always Abnett. I want canon, to remain as such. If I'm the only one that see's the Perpetual line as an aberration in the lore that came from one person and then perpetuated its own importance in the final books of a massive series as an 'issue'...then fine. I'll leave it at that until I read the book. I’m not even really sure what canon is broken here. There seemed to always be big question marks and vagueness with the old lore. I could understand if the issue was demystifying old lore, because I think it’s more of that than breaking any 20 year old vague canon. Also, it’s not like Dan is working alone here. Anything he writes has been signed off on. WolfLogic, I_Am_IronSam and aa.logan 3 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359800-siege-of-terra-saturnine-by-dan-abnett/page/12/#findComment-5494614 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelborn Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 Right now, with what I've got due to the spoilers (and that's why I was asking for clarifying background, because you know Well enough how spoilers can lead to certain reactions - See my own for example) is that It seems that Erda was responsible for scattering the Primarchs. Making her their biological "mother"- pfft alright, if they want to go into detail that much so be it. I never asked myself how Big E did it because in the end it's a sci-fi-fantasy-horror franchise. We don't have cross sections for ships or such - which would be awesome (and other IPs can get these done) - we get more details which were always mysterious. Again, so be it. Some will be happy, I just don't care and that's coming from someone who Lobes background stuff like cross sections, visual guides and so on. My biggest issue is that making her responsible for scattering the Primarchs is undermining Chaos and it's potency. Now it was a immortal "mortal" being who disagreed with Big Es plans. It's Not about the fate of the Galaxy/ Mankind conflict happening in the background. Big E with his webway plan against the destruktive Chaos. The scheming and long game throughout eons. It comes down to one Person screwing it up. And the clear Eve/ bible vibes I'm getting are disgusting but please let's not start to talk about that. Even if Argel Tals and his brothers Vision was true and it was them who scattered the Primarchs, it would still be due to Chaos and part of the great game. Right now, it comes down to one character showing up in the same book. It's comparable to Palpatine showing up in ep9 and taking credit for everything. So I'm begging for clarifying background. Usually I'm not the "get of my lawn type". You guys know me but here due to the lack of details, it just feels wrong to me. Why this and Lorgar is not allowed to be killed off, you know? DarkChaplain and choppyred 2 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359800-siege-of-terra-saturnine-by-dan-abnett/page/12/#findComment-5494620 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 (edited) Demystifying...sure, I can see where some might be coming from But to be frank, the whole HH series and the FW books are an exercise in large-scale demystification while creating some new smaller-scale mysteries. EDIT: I also think execution is at least 70% of the equation with regard to a major plot point. Something rather silly when described in contextless general terms can turn out to be very good when actually executed Edited March 22, 2020 by b1soul Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359800-siege-of-terra-saturnine-by-dan-abnett/page/12/#findComment-5494621 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedFurioso Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 personally, i'm more curious about why she's named for an earth goddess That's an interesting question, related to the book title. Gaia (daughter of Chaos) and Uranus (guess who) were the parents of Horus Cronus. And the latin name of Cronus is Saturn. Hence SATURNINE. WolfLogic, mc warhammer, Cerbero666 and 2 others 5 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359800-siege-of-terra-saturnine-by-dan-abnett/page/12/#findComment-5494637 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imren Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 Mine shipped yesterday! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359800-siege-of-terra-saturnine-by-dan-abnett/page/12/#findComment-5494649 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Drekkan Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 (edited) personally, i'm more curious about why she's named for an earth goddess That's an interesting question, related to the book title. Gaia (daughter of Chaos) and Uranus (guess who) were the parents of Horus Cronus. And the latin name of Cronus is Saturn. Hence SATURNINE. Sooo Creeeaativvv !!! (pun intended to duplicate the genius of DA) Edited March 22, 2020 by Drekkan Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359800-siege-of-terra-saturnine-by-dan-abnett/page/12/#findComment-5494656 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 Here's a thought for those of us who haven't read the books: these things don't normally come from a place of ego or the simple wish to surprise (though hello GoT Season 8). In most cases, for better or worse, the author is doing it to serve the drama and open up new possibilities for the story. Which I think is Abnett's MO through and through. And those effects are never, ever talked about on 4chan as far as I can tell. I found a really lovely quote about it by a certain writer-director yesterday. Unfortunately dropping his name will just inflame things further, so let's just pretend Jon Favreau said it: "The first thing to say is coming into writing this or any story, the object is not to subvert expectation. The object is not surprise. I think that would lead to some contrived places. The object is drama." 1ncarnadine, Fire Golem, mc warhammer and 2 others 5 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359800-siege-of-terra-saturnine-by-dan-abnett/page/12/#findComment-5494668 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Drekkan Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 Here's a thought for those of us who haven't read the books: these things don't normally come from a place of ego or the simple wish to surprise (though hello GoT Season 8). In most cases, for better or worse, the author is doing it to serve the drama and open up new possibilities for the story. Which I think is Abnett's MO through and through. And those effects are never, ever talked about on 4chan as far as I can tell. I found a really lovely quote about it by a certain writer-director yesterday. Unfortunately dropping his name will just inflame things further, so let's just pretend Jon Favreau said it: "The first thing to say is coming into writing this or any story, the object is not to subvert expectation. The object is not surprise. I think that would lead to some contrived places. The object is drama." To each their own. It feels just about $$$ grabs. Laurie Goulding said they would change the ending if people figure it out. But honnestly it could have been a reveal about something that was already in the setting. Creating dumb & dumber believing in alien lies, Tweety & Sylvester on Prospero and Guilliman heresy wrestling is no good for the ip. 40k getting wacked by primaris non sense and now the horus heresy getting ruined by more non sense is not my cup of tea. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359800-siege-of-terra-saturnine-by-dan-abnett/page/12/#findComment-5494678 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 My point is, let's wait and see how it plays in context. RedFurioso 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359800-siege-of-terra-saturnine-by-dan-abnett/page/12/#findComment-5494687 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 How about we read the book, then judge. Mechanicus Tech-Support, RedFurioso, Tymell and 2 others 5 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359800-siege-of-terra-saturnine-by-dan-abnett/page/12/#findComment-5494695 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 Dan Abnett said they won’t be changing the ending in his voxcast interview Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359800-siege-of-terra-saturnine-by-dan-abnett/page/12/#findComment-5494700 Share on other sites More sharing options...
LJF Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 I chuckle when I see some people views on 40k "canon". The only consistent thing about 40k lore is how inconsistent it is and it has nothing to do with Abnett. If anything his stuff is atleast enjoyable to read unlike most others. Havent read the book yet but Im 100% sure that all this panicking is ultimately pointless :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359800-siege-of-terra-saturnine-by-dan-abnett/page/12/#findComment-5494707 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelborn Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 (edited) That's why I'm asking for some clarifications. ;) I'd be super happy if I'll be proven wrong and bitchy. :D Edited March 22, 2020 by Kelborn LJF 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359800-siege-of-terra-saturnine-by-dan-abnett/page/12/#findComment-5494708 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 I see Shiban is in the dramatis personae. Could someone please share a few spoilers about what he's up to in Saturnine? Thanks in advance. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359800-siege-of-terra-saturnine-by-dan-abnett/page/12/#findComment-5494761 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daemon Prince Marbas Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 Do any of the traitors get a time to shine in the novel? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359800-siege-of-terra-saturnine-by-dan-abnett/page/12/#findComment-5494907 Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangerOrders Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 (edited) Do any of the traitors get a time to shine in the novel? Well, the Mournival come across as shockingly likable, cohesive and clever in their banter. So that's something. Its also the first time I've been actually looking forward to hearing more from Abby in the Siege. But then I see StrangerOrders rating Lost and the Damned as #1 and First Wall as the Siege's answer to The Room, and they seem a sensible poster so who can say what you'll think of them? In fairness, I am about as sensible as a Eidolon's fashion sense so you might want to take my judgement with a pinch of salt (not the angry kind, just the questionable kind). My advice is to buy the damned books if you can afford them (Audible still being by far the cheapest choice here) and to not let your life be defined by memes and hearsay. We are loremasters, not a random conscript taking some addled preacher's sermons for fact damn it! Anyhow, getting a bit further on. Krole's PoV is fun to read and Pert and Dorn seem to be playing hyper-velocity super chess in a really fun way to see. Best showing for both of them so far imo (better than Pert digitally dry-humping Horus's door in LatD). The Mournival are fun to see as something other than a mass of psychos and Abbadon seems to have remembered that he has wit (and is reasserting that he knows what levity is). Pretty pleased so far. Also, and this isnt a spoiler. The book does the best job so far at making the palace feel BIG, not just by shouting random measurements but by sheer density of places and names. Sure you get the usual 'insane amount of kilometers for a sitting room' but the weight is more 'a disorientating number of places and sub-cities and wait what?'. Best of all is that this varies between characters with mortals having the most trouble keeping the place straight in their heads. Good news btw, the Solar Auxilia are present in the Palace! Edited March 22, 2020 by StrangerOrders Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359800-siege-of-terra-saturnine-by-dan-abnett/page/12/#findComment-5494924 Share on other sites More sharing options...
calgar101 Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 (edited) Awesome! Would you mind shedding some light on Dorn and Perturabo interactions? Edited March 22, 2020 by calgar101 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359800-siege-of-terra-saturnine-by-dan-abnett/page/12/#findComment-5494927 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scammel Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 Right now, with what I've got due to the spoilers (and that's why I was asking for clarifying background, because you know Well enough how spoilers can lead to certain reactions - See my own for example) is that It seems that Erda was responsible for scattering the Primarchs. Making her their biological "mother"- pfft alright, if they want to go into detail that much so be it. I never asked myself how Big E did it because in the end it's a sci-fi-fantasy-horror franchise. We don't have cross sections for ships or such - which would be awesome (and other IPs can get these done) - we get more details which were always mysterious. Again, so be it. Some will be happy, I just don't care and that's coming from someone who Lobes background stuff like cross sections, visual guides and so on. My biggest issue is that making her responsible for scattering the Primarchs is undermining Chaos and it's potency. Now it was a immortal "mortal" being who disagreed with Big Es plans. It's Not about the fate of the Galaxy/ Mankind conflict happening in the background. Big E with his webway plan against the destruktive Chaos. The scheming and long game throughout eons. It comes down to one Person screwing it up. And the clear Eve/ bible vibes I'm getting are disgusting but please let's not start to talk about that. Even if Argel Tals and his brothers Vision was true and it was them who scattered the Primarchs, it would still be due to Chaos and part of the great game. Right now, it comes down to one character showing up in the same book. It's comparable to Palpatine showing up in ep9 and taking credit for everything. So I'm begging for clarifying background. Usually I'm not the "get of my lawn type". You guys know me but here due to the lack of details, it just feels wrong to me. Why this and Lorgar is not allowed to be killed off, you know? For me, the most efficient answer is... why not both? She could well be the one to compromise the psychic shielding or serve as some form of conduit, but the scattering of the Primarchs clearly has a design to it beyond mortal scope. She could simply be the oblivious instrument of a plan to get Magnus to Prospero, or Mortarion to Barbarus etc. mc warhammer, Fire Golem and Lord_Caerolion 3 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359800-siege-of-terra-saturnine-by-dan-abnett/page/12/#findComment-5494928 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Golem Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 Awesome! Would you mind shedding some light on Dorn and Perturabo interactions? They don’t actually interact, but you see each of their approach to the Siege and how they’re trying to think like each other, swap chess pieces etc to reach their checkmate. StrangerOrders and Llagos_Tyrant 2 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359800-siege-of-terra-saturnine-by-dan-abnett/page/12/#findComment-5494945 Share on other sites More sharing options...
calgar101 Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 Ahh okay, thanks for your reply Fire Golem. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359800-siege-of-terra-saturnine-by-dan-abnett/page/12/#findComment-5494946 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mega_marines Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 Loved the book but found the treatment of Krole to be the pretty unacceptable and incredibly lackluster. Honestly the worst point of the book for me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359800-siege-of-terra-saturnine-by-dan-abnett/page/12/#findComment-5494949 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dagoth Ur Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 Loved the book but found the treatment of Krole to be the pretty unacceptable and incredibly lackluster. Honestly the worst point of the book for me. How so? Mind putting your thoughts in spoilers? :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359800-siege-of-terra-saturnine-by-dan-abnett/page/12/#findComment-5494955 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelborn Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 And maybe shedding some more context on Erda? ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359800-siege-of-terra-saturnine-by-dan-abnett/page/12/#findComment-5494970 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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