Lord Marshal Posted March 24, 2020 Share Posted March 24, 2020 On 3/24/2020 at 2:26 AM, Lord_Caerolion said: Reveal hidden contents "Wait, you're not Falkus!" *pulls off mask "It was old man Alpharius all along!" Reveal hidden contents "That was when we discovered the Alpha Legion's true intentions, but Abaddon bid we keep their secrets close and so I shan't elaborate further. Now, as to the man who morphed himself into a pickle..." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359800-siege-of-terra-saturnine-by-dan-abnett/page/18/#findComment-5495736 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkChaplain Posted March 24, 2020 Share Posted March 24, 2020 On 3/24/2020 at 10:00 AM, RedFurioso said: On 3/24/2020 at 1:11 AM, b1soul said: I can't imagine a 1,500 veteran who served honourably during the Siege not having tremendous, if not legendary, status in his chapter. Well, Fafnir Rann got his own Chapter only 1000 years after the Heresy. If somebody could list all Titan Legions mentioned in Saturnine, I would be grateful. Oriax Dantalion was supposed to be *the* Imperial Fist that finally convinced Dorn to agree to the splitting of his Legion as per the Codex Astartes, and his Chapter would be the Fists Exemplar. He was also dead by the time Maximus Thane took the job of Chapter Master. So yeah, this is one thing they need to fix soon, otherwise the entire thing makes even less sense. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359800-siege-of-terra-saturnine-by-dan-abnett/page/18/#findComment-5495749 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fedor Posted March 24, 2020 Share Posted March 24, 2020 (edited) On Aximand: Reveal hidden contents Definitely feel he could have been developed more. He's basically been forgotten since Vengeful Spirit and before that he was the most interesting Sons Character along with Maloghurst imo. Abnett writes a really lame quip for Loken just before he kills him too, that didn't fit with the tone of the rest of the scene and seemed more like something from a light hearted Marvel Movie. Edited March 24, 2020 by Fedor DarkChaplain, Kelborn and Marshal Loss 3 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359800-siege-of-terra-saturnine-by-dan-abnett/page/18/#findComment-5495775 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkChaplain Posted March 24, 2020 Share Posted March 24, 2020 (edited) Reveal hidden contents I think a lot of what French introduced that Argonis fellow for could've been handled more interestingly with Aximand. It was strange by how little the Mournival in general did in Slaves to Darkness, as well. In general, I feel like Loken is doing too much butt-kicking this time around. There was big setup for him going toe to toe with Tormageddon, up until Vengeful Spirit, and then that was kind of forgotten along with the character, really. To me, it'd have been enough for him to put a lid on Tormageddon in this book, and leaving any real showdown with Aximand for later aboard the Vengeful Spirit or somesuch. Just putting Loken into a sort of Boss Rush mode doesn't feel like the right way to go about either of the characters, least of all Loken, whose strength - to me - lies more in the emotional payoff, the clash of ideals, rather than the clash of blades. Edited March 24, 2020 by DarkChaplain Marshal Loss, mc warhammer, 1ncarnadine and 3 others 6 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359800-siege-of-terra-saturnine-by-dan-abnett/page/18/#findComment-5495786 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted March 24, 2020 Share Posted March 24, 2020 (edited) Reveal hidden contents They're probably gonna justify this with "it's war, people die", which is what French says about Solar War's multiple character deaths. Do feel saving Aximand vs. Loken for later would have been preferred Edited March 24, 2020 by b1soul Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359800-siege-of-terra-saturnine-by-dan-abnett/page/18/#findComment-5495800 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scammel Posted March 24, 2020 Share Posted March 24, 2020 (edited) Reveal hidden contents I agree that Loken probably takes too many scalps in this, but I enjoyed the perverse anticlimax of Aximand's death - the smug, vindictive turncoat, reduced to paranoia and powerlessness in his final moments. Strong flavours of Littlefinger here. Edited March 24, 2020 by Scammel Fire Golem 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359800-siege-of-terra-saturnine-by-dan-abnett/page/18/#findComment-5495807 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fedor Posted March 24, 2020 Share Posted March 24, 2020 Aximand Reveal hidden contents I wouldn't have been bothered about him dying at this point if he had got more development in the time between Vengeful Spirit and now. imo there was a chance not taken to have him be a conduit through which we see a lot of the more chaotic changes in the legion and traitor war effort from a charcter unsure if he's really made the right choice. Back during the biggest period of short story and novella bloat, some Aximand focused content would have been ideal for those formats imo. That said i didn't want the Aximand drops the shields idea at all, in fact would have preferred a slow seduction towards Chaos, perhaps with his fear of Loken's return as the way in for it. A short brutal death to Loken is fine too for an eventual end, but i wish Dan had resisted sliding in a Joss Whedon like quip while he does it. mc warhammer, Marshal Loss and DarkChaplain 3 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359800-siege-of-terra-saturnine-by-dan-abnett/page/18/#findComment-5495811 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Loss Posted March 24, 2020 Share Posted March 24, 2020 At least we'll always have that incredible Aximand vs. Sigismund scene in Solar War. Nerd chills. 1ncarnadine, Fire Golem, bluntblade and 3 others 6 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359800-siege-of-terra-saturnine-by-dan-abnett/page/18/#findComment-5495830 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted March 24, 2020 Share Posted March 24, 2020 To be honest, I think the events in Little Horus would have made a cracking 150 to 200 page novella. It would have really fleshed out Henricos, Hibou, Aximand, and Aximand's lieutenants. Would have added a lot more to the Heresy series than stuff like Promethean Sun. Roomsky, Sandlemad, Fedor and 3 others 6 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359800-siege-of-terra-saturnine-by-dan-abnett/page/18/#findComment-5495849 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpAcEGhOsT095 Posted March 24, 2020 Share Posted March 24, 2020 I've been trying to think of some SoH that will be on the Vengeful Spirit in the last book that we already know. I can't think of any. Ezekyle was busting through the defenses of the Palace when Horus died. I guess Sev will drop the shields. Is he with the Lion or Corswain? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359800-siege-of-terra-saturnine-by-dan-abnett/page/18/#findComment-5495908 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkChaplain Posted March 24, 2020 Share Posted March 24, 2020 Yeah, at this point, there's barely a named character left to be a point of view during the finale on the Vengeful Spirit. Guess Sanguinius will be hacking almost exclusively through daemon fodder, huh? This kind of thing really makes me worry for the Siege's pacing. As much as some people complained about The First Wall or LatD being unnecessary/"filler" books, we're at book 4, and a truckload of prominent, developed characters are already out of the picture, with relatively little payoff to their arcs. We got 4 books to go, and I'm not even sure we got the characters needed to fill the next two while maintaining this level of momentum :') Kelborn and SpAcEGhOsT095 2 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359800-siege-of-terra-saturnine-by-dan-abnett/page/18/#findComment-5495922 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelborn Posted March 24, 2020 Share Posted March 24, 2020 The moment for second founding chapter legends to rise ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359800-siege-of-terra-saturnine-by-dan-abnett/page/18/#findComment-5495925 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkChaplain Posted March 24, 2020 Share Posted March 24, 2020 Not that much of an issue for the Loyalists, really. But the Traitors? They might not even need to wage war on each other anymore, if they get torn to shreds already. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359800-siege-of-terra-saturnine-by-dan-abnett/page/18/#findComment-5495932 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted March 24, 2020 Share Posted March 24, 2020 Which do you have in mind? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359800-siege-of-terra-saturnine-by-dan-abnett/page/18/#findComment-5495933 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Golem Posted March 24, 2020 Share Posted March 24, 2020 On 3/24/2020 at 2:09 PM, Marshal Loss said: At least we'll always have that incredible Aximand vs. Sigismund scene in Solar War. Nerd chills. God yeah. That’s one of my favourite scenes in the entire Heresy series. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359800-siege-of-terra-saturnine-by-dan-abnett/page/18/#findComment-5495943 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biscuittzz Posted March 24, 2020 Share Posted March 24, 2020 Reveal hidden contents If Aximand was disposed of so unceremoniously , why did not just have Sigismund actually kill him in Solar War now? At least give some fan service. The Emperors Champion won't be challenging and killing chaos champions in single combat at this rate. Current tally is slapped around by Khârn and a failed kill on Eidolon. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359800-siege-of-terra-saturnine-by-dan-abnett/page/18/#findComment-5495954 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedFurioso Posted March 24, 2020 Share Posted March 24, 2020 On 3/24/2020 at 6:06 PM, Biscuittzz said: Reveal hidden contents If Aximand was disposed of so unceremoniously , why did not just have Sigismund actually kill him in Solar War now? At least give some fan service. The Emperors Champion won't be challenging and killing chaos champions in single combat at this rate. Current tally is slapped around by Khârn and a failed kill on Eidolon. Reveal hidden contents Because Loken/Aximand encounter IS the fan service? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359800-siege-of-terra-saturnine-by-dan-abnett/page/18/#findComment-5495959 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrannicide Posted March 24, 2020 Share Posted March 24, 2020 On 3/24/2020 at 6:31 PM, RedFurioso said: On 3/24/2020 at 6:06 PM, Biscuittzz said: Reveal hidden contents If Aximand was disposed of so unceremoniously , why did not just have Sigismund actually kill him in Solar War now? At least give some fan service. The Emperors Champion won't be challenging and killing chaos champions in single combat at this rate. Current tally is slapped around by Khârn and a failed kill on Eidolon. Reveal hidden contents Because Loken/Aximand encounter IS the fan service? Because that’s now how war works. Seriously do not understand people’s problem with characters getting gacked in chance encounters/unceremoniously/however you’d like to think of it. The Heresy still retains a very classical epic feel, but moments like that illustrate that it doesn’t matter how important you or others think you are. The universe doesn’t skip a beat and you do not matter. Personally, I love the more realistic and sudden deaths. Maybe I’m in the minority. Not every fight needs to be a Marvel movie. Llagos_Tyrant, byrd9999, mc warhammer and 9 others 12 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359800-siege-of-terra-saturnine-by-dan-abnett/page/18/#findComment-5495961 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpAcEGhOsT095 Posted March 24, 2020 Share Posted March 24, 2020 It isn't that one or two characters got it. It's that a Red Wedding happened to the top players in the most important traitor legion with several books to go. DarkChaplain 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359800-siege-of-terra-saturnine-by-dan-abnett/page/18/#findComment-5495976 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fedor Posted March 24, 2020 Share Posted March 24, 2020 Reveal hidden contents Shocking or unceremonious deaths are fine imo, i'd guess most just wouldn't be expecting almost all of the remaining Sons characters to go out so clustered together at the midway point. Still, plenty of page space left to introduce new characters for them if the authors want imo. Marr became a quite interesting character as a former line officer finding his place and seemingly on the rise, without too much page space over a few shorts and supporting character in Old Earth. I think however it's likely the team have decided to buckle down on developing and focusing on Abaddon as the Sons marine point of view. Sandlemad, RedFurioso, DINOthedinosauer and 1 other 4 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359800-siege-of-terra-saturnine-by-dan-abnett/page/18/#findComment-5495979 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scammel Posted March 24, 2020 Share Posted March 24, 2020 On 3/24/2020 at 7:03 PM, SpAcEGhOsT095 said: It isn't that one or two characters got it. It's that a Red Wedding happened to the top players in the most important traitor legion with several books to go. Well, yes. It's quite deliberately an almost total decapitation. Fire Golem 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359800-siege-of-terra-saturnine-by-dan-abnett/page/18/#findComment-5496005 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkChaplain Posted March 24, 2020 Share Posted March 24, 2020 (edited) Reveal hidden contents The problem isn't that it's deliberate and all according to plan, but that it leaves us with basically no prominent characters besides Abaddon to view the rest of the series through. It shreds whatever presence the arguably most important Legion of the series has into tiny little bits during that one arc that should have seen them as the most prominent, capable and threatening Traitor Legion in the series. After being neglected so thoroughly for dozens of books, with only brief glimpses here and there ever since Vengeful Spirit, and a Slaves to Darkness that, again, sidelined characters that would have deserved better development than they got, while playing up Layak as the superapostle, the Sons of Horus are already mostly blunted during their first real involvement during the Siege, barely halfway through the Siege series. With Horus so firmly relegated to the backseat since Slaves to Darkness and his Sons pretty much neutered, there isn't much left to make them live up to the title of Horus Heresy, is there? Story arcs were cut short or abandoned when they didn't need to be, or at least not yet. It might be an uncharitable comparison, but killing off so many popular / prominent characters, even beyond the Sons of Horus, puts me in mind of The Last Jedi again. Subverting expectations isn't bad per se, but it is bloody terrible when it happens in a series where the pieces were still valuable for narrative and dramatic effect, and throwing them in the bin just to surprise the audience doesn't hold much benefit in the long run. With how Abnett handled the exits of Krole, Eidolon, Aximand, Tormageddon and co, I find it very hard to feel satisfied or enthusiastic for the end of the series, as penned by him. It's especially frustrating when he himself set Aximand up for a more interesting role than dying on a whim to increase the kill-count of a character that should've remained dead and buried under a building on a virus bombed planet. Edited March 24, 2020 by DarkChaplain Marshal Loss, mc warhammer, SpAcEGhOsT095 and 2 others 5 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359800-siege-of-terra-saturnine-by-dan-abnett/page/18/#findComment-5496041 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mc warhammer Posted March 24, 2020 Share Posted March 24, 2020 On 3/24/2020 at 4:19 PM, SpAcEGhOsT095 said: I've been trying to think of some SoH that will be on the Vengeful Spirit in the last book that we already know. I can't think of any. Ezekyle was busting through the defenses of the Palace when Horus died. I guess Sev will drop the shields. Is he with the Lion or Corswain? it's almost as if horus will drop the shields Scammel, Roomsky, Lord_Caerolion and 1 other 4 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359800-siege-of-terra-saturnine-by-dan-abnett/page/18/#findComment-5496044 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted March 24, 2020 Share Posted March 24, 2020 Had any of the authors actually hinted that it would be someone other than Horus who drops the shields, or is this all just the fan speculation of "Aximand seemed remorseful, he's obviously gonna be the one who drops the shields/Loken will sneak in and do it" wishing? RedFurioso 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359800-siege-of-terra-saturnine-by-dan-abnett/page/18/#findComment-5496057 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbienw Posted March 24, 2020 Share Posted March 24, 2020 Pure fan speculation. Was never going to happen. Roomsky, DarkChaplain and RedFurioso 3 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359800-siege-of-terra-saturnine-by-dan-abnett/page/18/#findComment-5496061 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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