9th Ed. Wishlist?

[MrKoolPants]

 

I cant believe we will have squats before Kasrkin.

 

 

 

This is also wild to me. Astra Militarum over here like looking at GW like, "Dad, do you even love me?" 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

A small thing.

I’d like autocannons to get bumped up to Ap-2

Wouldn’t make them massively good, but would widen the niche or reason to use them over HBs a little bit more.

Completely agree with this. Currently they’re only better than HB’s against T6. Against anything else they’re roughly the same or worse. AP-2 would make it better against heavy infantry and light vehicles.

and T7

[jarms48]

T7 it’s actually the same as a HB.

 

Against a Rhino:

- Autocannon: 2 shots, 1 hit, 0.5 wounds, 0.25 unsaved wounds.

- Heavy bolter: 3 shots, 1.5 hits, 0.5 wounds, 0.25 unsaved wounds.

Edited April 7, 2022 by jarms48

[MrKoolPants]

T7 it’s actually the same as a HB.

 

Against a Rhino:

- Autocannon: 2 shots, 1 hit, 0.5 wounds, 0.25 unsaved wounds.

- Heavy bolter: 3 shots, 1.5 hits, 0.5 wounds, 0.25 unsaved wounds.

 

That's actually pretty interesting, I'd never mathhammered it before. Does that make a case for including HB in infantry squads or HWS, or on Russes maybe? Infantry squads you normally want moving, HWS die to a stiff breeze, and sponson weapons on Russes are so pricey. 

 

I guess this is the issue with the dex: it's behind the power curve on mobility, survivability, and output for points cost. 

[jarms48]

 

That's actually pretty interesting, I'd never mathhammered it before. Does that make a case for including HB in infantry squads or HWS, or on Russes maybe? Infantry squads you normally want moving, HWS die to a stiff breeze, and sponson weapons on Russes are so pricey. 

 

I guess this is the issue with the dex: it's behind the power curve on mobility, survivability, and output for points cost. 

 

 

If you were already taking autocannons right now, I'd suggest swapping to HB. 

 

If you want to mathhammer here's some scenarios:

 

Heavy bolter: 

- Against T3 3+: 0.5 unsaved wounds.

- Against T4 3+: 0.5 unsaved wounds.

- Against T5 3+: 0.375 unsaved wounds. 

- Against T6 3+: 0.25 unsaved wounds. 

- Against T7 3+: 0.25 unsaved wounds. 

- Against T8 3+: 0.25 unsaved wounds. 

 

Autocannon: 

- Against T3 3+: 0.417 unsaved wounds. 

- Against T4 3+: 0.333 unsaved wounds.

- Against T5 3+: 0.333 unsaved wounds.

- Against T6 3+: 0.333 unsaved wounds.

- Against T7 3+: 0.25 unsaved wounds.

- Against T8 3+: 0.167 unsaved wounds.

 

Regular autocannon loses/ties against everything except T6.

 

Autocannon buffed to AP-2: 

- Against T3 3+: 0.556 unsaved wounds. 

- Against T4 3+: 0.444 unsaved wounds. 

- Against T5 3+: 0.444 unsaved wounds. 

- Against T6 3+: 0.444 unsaved wounds. 

- Against T7 3+: 0.333 unsaved wounds. 

- Against T8 3+: 0.222 unsaved wounds.

 

Autocannon buffed to AP-2 beats the heavy bolter at everything except T4 and T8.

 

Autocannon buffed to S8:

- Against T3 3+: 0.417 unsaved wounds. 

- Against T4 3+: 0.417 unsaved wounds.

- Against T5 3+: 0.333 unsaved wounds. 

- Against T6 3+: 0.333 unsaved wounds. 

- Against T7 3+: 0.333 unsaved wounds. 

- Against T8 3+: 0.25 unsaved wounds.

 

Autocannon buffed to S8 beats the heavy bolter at T6, and T7. Heavy bolter wins at T3, T4, T5, and ties at T8. 

 

So, honestly. I'd probably go with the autocannon going to S8. That puts it firmly at an anti-light/medium vehicle weapon, but can still do okay at infantry work. Making the autocannon AP-2 just makes it swap places with the heavy bolter. 

[MrKoolPants]

 

 

That's actually pretty interesting, I'd never mathhammered it before. Does that make a case for including HB in infantry squads or HWS, or on Russes maybe? Infantry squads you normally want moving, HWS die to a stiff breeze, and sponson weapons on Russes are so pricey. 

 

I guess this is the issue with the dex: it's behind the power curve on mobility, survivability, and output for points cost. 

 

 

If you were already taking autocannons right now, I'd suggest swapping to HB. 

 

If you want to mathhammer here's some scenarios:

 

Heavy bolter: 

- Against T3 3+: 0.5 unsaved wounds.

- Against T4 3+: 0.5 unsaved wounds.

- Against T5 3+: 0.375 unsaved wounds. 

- Against T6 3+: 0.25 unsaved wounds. 

- Against T7 3+: 0.25 unsaved wounds. 

- Against T8 3+: 0.25 unsaved wounds. 

 

Autocannon: 

- Against T3 3+: 0.417 unsaved wounds. 

- Against T4 3+: 0.333 unsaved wounds.

- Against T5 3+: 0.333 unsaved wounds.

- Against T6 3+: 0.333 unsaved wounds.

- Against T7 3+: 0.25 unsaved wounds.

- Against T8 3+: 0.167 unsaved wounds.

 

Regular autocannon loses/ties against everything except T6.

 

Autocannon buffed to AP-2: 

- Against T3 3+: 0.556 unsaved wounds. 

- Against T4 3+: 0.444 unsaved wounds. 

- Against T5 3+: 0.444 unsaved wounds. 

- Against T6 3+: 0.444 unsaved wounds. 

- Against T7 3+: 0.333 unsaved wounds. 

- Against T8 3+: 0.222 unsaved wounds.

 

Autocannon buffed to AP-2 beats the heavy bolter at everything except T4 and T8.

 

Autocannon buffed to S8:

- Against T3 3+: 0.417 unsaved wounds. 

- Against T4 3+: 0.417 unsaved wounds.

- Against T5 3+: 0.333 unsaved wounds. 

- Against T6 3+: 0.333 unsaved wounds. 

- Against T7 3+: 0.333 unsaved wounds. 

- Against T8 3+: 0.25 unsaved wounds.

 

Autocannon buffed to S8 beats the heavy bolter at T6, and T7. Heavy bolter wins at T3, T4, T5, and ties at T8. 

 

So, honestly. I'd probably go with the autocannon going to S8. That puts it firmly at an anti-light/medium vehicle weapon, but can still do okay at infantry work. Making the autocannon AP-2 just makes it swap places with the heavy bolter. 

 

 

Damn, this is awesome, thank you. Currently, I haven't really been taking either, in favor of flamers or mortars on infantry, and Lascannons on any vehicles. I'm basically sticking with the extremes, haha. S8 autocannons, especially if the points cost were right, would be super viable. That would also keep HB thematically shooting "lower toughness" stuff. 

[jarms48]

Next issue is the missile launcher. It’s just bad, and there’s almost be no point taking it over an S8 autocannon. Lol.

[MrKoolPants]

I think you change it up, and make the Missile launcher assault, but taking up your “heavy weapon” choice, and still in the two-man HWT base. Sort of like a SMAW or Carl-Gustaf.

 

Make it Assault 1, S8, AP-2, Dd3, 24” range. Then maybe there’s some synergy with plasma or melta?

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

 

That's actually pretty interesting, I'd never mathhammered it before. Does that make a case for including HB in infantry squads or HWS, or on Russes maybe? Infantry squads you normally want moving, HWS die to a stiff breeze, and sponson weapons on Russes are so pricey.

 

I guess this is the issue with the dex: it's behind the power curve on mobility, survivability, and output for points cost.

 

If you were already taking autocannons right now, I'd suggest swapping to HB.

 

If you want to mathhammer here's some scenarios:

 

Heavy bolter:

- Against T3 3+: 0.5 unsaved wounds.

- Against T4 3+: 0.5 unsaved wounds.

- Against T5 3+: 0.375 unsaved wounds.

- Against T6 3+: 0.25 unsaved wounds.

- Against T7 3+: 0.25 unsaved wounds.

- Against T8 3+: 0.25 unsaved wounds.

 

Autocannon:

- Against T3 3+: 0.417 unsaved wounds.

- Against T4 3+: 0.333 unsaved wounds.

- Against T5 3+: 0.333 unsaved wounds.

- Against T6 3+: 0.333 unsaved wounds.

- Against T7 3+: 0.25 unsaved wounds.

- Against T8 3+: 0.167 unsaved wounds.

 

Regular autocannon loses/ties against everything except T6.

 

Autocannon buffed to AP-2:

- Against T3 3+: 0.556 unsaved wounds.

- Against T4 3+: 0.444 unsaved wounds.

- Against T5 3+: 0.444 unsaved wounds.

- Against T6 3+: 0.444 unsaved wounds.

- Against T7 3+: 0.333 unsaved wounds.

- Against T8 3+: 0.222 unsaved wounds.

 

Autocannon buffed to AP-2 beats the heavy bolter at everything except T4 and T8.

 

Autocannon buffed to S8:

- Against T3 3+: 0.417 unsaved wounds.

- Against T4 3+: 0.417 unsaved wounds.

- Against T5 3+: 0.333 unsaved wounds.

- Against T6 3+: 0.333 unsaved wounds.

- Against T7 3+: 0.333 unsaved wounds.

- Against T8 3+: 0.25 unsaved wounds.

 

Autocannon buffed to S8 beats the heavy bolter at T6, and T7. Heavy bolter wins at T3, T4, T5, and ties at T8.

 

So, honestly. I'd probably go with the autocannon going to S8. That puts it firmly at an anti-light/medium vehicle weapon, but can still do okay at infantry work. Making the autocannon AP-2 just makes it swap places with the heavy bolter.

S8 might be getting a little bit excessive for a weapon meant to kill light armor lol

[Phubar]

Next issue is the missile launcher. It’s just bad, and there’s almost be no point taking it over an S8 autocannon. Lol.

The change to the wounding system was awful as it made some weapons useless and some effective against "wrong" targets.

We need two ways for determine to wound rolls, one fot infantry and one for vehcles.

[Plague _Lord]

I really want to see heavy weapons be viable for infantry squads again. For this to happen they have to be cheap enough to not inflate the cost to absurd levels.

 

For me a regular guard squad should have these price points:

5pts - regular guardsman

8pts - veteran guardsman (+1bs, +1LD)

2pts - grenade launcher

2pts - flamer

2pts - sniper

5pts - plasma gun

5pts - melta gun

5pts - missile launcher

5pts - heavy bolter

10pts - autocann but with improved profile, if profile the same then 5pts

10pts - lascannon

5pts or free - vox caster that actually does something useful.

 

I think paying around 65 pts for a squad with special weapons and heavy is about right and going for a cheapo loadout of grenade launcher and missile launcher for 57pts would also be decent. Bare bones infantry squads are boring!!

 

Also veterans should of course be troops, it baffles me that storm troopers are troops but vets not :D

Oh and a big one - command squads should be treated as charachters so should benefit from LOS of course.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

Next issue is the missile launcher. It’s just bad, and there’s almost be no point taking it over an S8 autocannon. Lol.

The change to the wounding system was awful as it made some weapons useless and some effective against "wrong" targets.

We need two ways for determine to wound rolls, one fot infantry and one for vehcles.

oh trust me, I agree.

The idea that a lucky round of lasgun fire can even possibly seriously damage or destroy a baneblade or even a chimera is ridiculous.

[OldWherewolf]

 

 

Next issue is the missile launcher. It’s just bad, and there’s almost be no point taking it over an S8 autocannon. Lol.

The change to the wounding system was awful as it made some weapons useless and some effective against "wrong" targets.

We need two ways for determine to wound rolls, one fot infantry and one for vehcles.

oh trust me, I agree.

The idea that a lucky round of lasgun fire can even possibly seriously damage or destroy a baneblade or even a chimera is ridiculous.

 

Ya, but is that even a threat?  It take 100 guardsment to kill 5 marines. 

 

9 lasguns with 2 shots each into a LRBT does 0.3W average.  So that means ~40 squads of guardsmen  (400 models) to kill 1 LRBT at 18" under FRFSRF.  That's well within an acceptable margin for me. 

 

What's less acceptable to me is a 60-ton LRBT running over a model with flak armor still saves on a 5+.  A 60-ton tank running over a space marine would turn that marine into goo.  I would make it so T5-6 tanks have AP-1 in combat, T7 AP-2 and T8 AP-3 standard. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

 

 

Next issue is the missile launcher. It’s just bad, and there’s almost be no point taking it over an S8 autocannon. Lol.

The change to the wounding system was awful as it made some weapons useless and some effective against "wrong" targets.

We need two ways for determine to wound rolls, one fot infantry and one for vehcles.

oh trust me, I agree.

The idea that a lucky round of lasgun fire can even possibly seriously damage or destroy a baneblade or even a chimera is ridiculous.

Ya, but is that even a threat? It take 100 guardsment to kill 5 marines.

 

9 lasguns with 2 shots each into a LRBT does 0.3W average. So that means ~40 squads of guardsmen (400 models) to kill 1 LRBT at 18" under FRFSRF. That's well within an acceptable margin for me.

 

What's less acceptable to me is a 60-ton LRBT running over a model with flak armor still saves on a 5+. A 60-ton tank running over a space marine would turn that marine into goo. I would make it so T5-6 tanks have AP-1 in combat, T7 AP-2 and T8 AP-3 standard.

I said a lucky round.

9 lasguns getting 2 shots each all hitting, all wounding and all saves failed puts a fresh baneblade into its last bracket, and the fact that’s even possible is bonkers.

[Phubar]

The problem is not that 30 laguns can scratch a wound on a LRBT but the fact that we have lost some variety in weapons effectiveness against both infantry and vehicles.

[MrKoolPants]

So, honestly. I'd probably go with the autocannon going to S8. That puts it firmly at an anti-light/medium vehicle weapon, but can still do okay at infantry work. Making the autocannon AP-2 just makes it swap places with the heavy bolter.

S8 might be getting a little bit excessive for a weapon meant to kill light armor lol

 

 

Perhaps, but then also its relative to the meta, right? If S8 is what you need to buff light AT weapons because of the prevalence of -1D or -1 to hit, then that's alright. It does fly in the face of the fluff though -- there's no way an autocannon should be as strong as a meltagun, right? Or that much stronger than a heavy bolter round? 

 

How would we like to see Sentinels changed? I'd say drop them by 5/10 points, and leave them the same. Maybe give them a bonus in faction/stratagem that lets them interact with vehicles, to represent their role as scouts for armoured companies? Smoke launchers giving friendly vehicles a -1 to hit if within 6" or something. 

Edited April 7, 2022 by LtColKool

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

So, honestly. I'd probably go with the autocannon going to S8. That puts it firmly at an anti-light/medium vehicle weapon, but can still do okay at infantry work. Making the autocannon AP-2 just makes it swap places with the heavy bolter.

S8 might be getting a little bit excessive for a weapon meant to kill light armor lol

Perhaps, but then also its relative to the meta, right? If S8 is what you need to buff light AT weapons because of the prevalence of -1D or -1 to hit, then that's alright. It does fly in the face of the fluff though -- there's no way an autocannon should be as strong as a meltagun, right? Or that much stronger than a heavy bolter round?

 

How would we like to see Sentinels changed? I'd say drop them by 5/10 points, and leave them the same. Maybe give them a bonus in faction/stratagem that lets them interact with vehicles, to represent their role as scouts for armoured companies? Smoke launchers giving friendly vehicles a -1 to hit if within 6" or something.

a S8 buff doesn’t change the -1 damage or -1 to hit issues though lol.

Personally I’d like more weapons options for them, and an option for a second of some sort on the armored sentinel even if it’s just a stubber.

 

Rumor is there’s a new sentinel kit coming so it’s a possibility they bulk the kit out a bit and add something like the grenade launcher we see on repulsors, or a stubber to it as an option.

Edited April 7, 2022 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[jarms48]

That affects all weapons though. All weapons should be balanced relatively to each other.

[Malakithe]

I really want to see heavy weapons be viable for infantry squads again. For this to happen they have to be cheap enough to not inflate the cost to absurd levels.

 

For me a regular guard squad should have these price points:

5pts - regular guardsman

8pts - veteran guardsman (+1bs, +1LD)

2pts - grenade launcher

2pts - flamer

2pts - sniper

5pts - plasma gun

5pts - melta gun

5pts - missile launcher

5pts - heavy bolter

10pts - autocann but with improved profile, if profile the same then 5pts

10pts - lascannon

5pts or free - vox caster that actually does something useful.

 

I think paying around 65 pts for a squad with special weapons and heavy is about right and going for a cheapo loadout of grenade launcher and missile launcher for 57pts would also be decent. Bare bones infantry squads are boring!!

 

Also veterans should of course be troops, it baffles me that storm troopers are troops but vets not

Oh and a big one - command squads should be treated as charachters so should benefit from LOS of course.

As T'au Strike Teams are 80pts bare I doubt Guard squads will be less then that after a new book drops

[MrKoolPants]

 

 

 

So, honestly. I'd probably go with the autocannon going to S8. That puts it firmly at an anti-light/medium vehicle weapon, but can still do okay at infantry work. Making the autocannon AP-2 just makes it swap places with the heavy bolter.

S8 might be getting a little bit excessive for a weapon meant to kill light armor lol

Perhaps, but then also its relative to the meta, right? If S8 is what you need to buff light AT weapons because of the prevalence of -1D or -1 to hit, then that's alright. It does fly in the face of the fluff though -- there's no way an autocannon should be as strong as a meltagun, right? Or that much stronger than a heavy bolter round?

 

How would we like to see Sentinels changed? I'd say drop them by 5/10 points, and leave them the same. Maybe give them a bonus in faction/stratagem that lets them interact with vehicles, to represent their role as scouts for armoured companies? Smoke launchers giving friendly vehicles a -1 to hit if within 6" or something.

a S8 buff doesn’t change the -1 damage or -1 to hit issues though lol.

Personally I’d like more weapons options for them, and an option for a second of some sort on the armored sentinel even if it’s just a stubber.

 

Rumor is there’s a new sentinel kit coming so it’s a possibility they bulk the kit out a bit and add something like the grenade launcher we see on repulsors, or a stubber to it as an option.

 

 

Wait, how does that mathhammer work out? I'll hash it out later/tomorrow, unless somebody wants to do the honors. Logically, a jump from S7 to S8  would provide an added benefit against T4, T7, and T8. You're going from wounding on 3s to wounding on 2s for T4, from 4s to 3s on T7, and from 5s to 4s on T8. This would provide a benefit even against -1 to hit or -1D, because it improves your likelihood of succeeding at one step of the shooting sequence for T4/7/8. 

 

I'm thinking about wounds output against various toughnesses across 5 turns of play, not just a single round of shooting. -1 to hit will make the damage output over five turns more swingy, and -1D will flatly reduce the damage output of any weapon regardless of strength. I think S8 would still make the likelihood of dealing any damage at all more likely, and this adds up after multiple rounds of shooting.

 

This "likelihood over five turns" is how I typically look at weapons from a game balance perspective, which may/may not be different than how I look at it from a list-building perspective. 

 

For example, I would only anticipate getting one (or maybe two) turns of shooting out of a volcano cannon, given the target priority and vulnerability of the platform that weapon is attached to. But with Infantry Squad -embedded HWT or even weapons on Chimera/Sentinel chassis, you'll almost certainly get a few turns out of your average HW assuming your opponent's target priority is in order. 

 

Full disclosure, I'm just getting off work, so my logic might be wack. 

[Plague _Lord]

 

I really want to see heavy weapons be viable for infantry squads again. For this to happen they have to be cheap enough to not inflate the cost to absurd levels.

 

For me a regular guard squad should have these price points:

5pts - regular guardsman

8pts - veteran guardsman (+1bs, +1LD)

2pts - grenade launcher

2pts - flamer

2pts - sniper

5pts - plasma gun

5pts - melta gun

5pts - missile launcher

5pts - heavy bolter

10pts - autocann but with improved profile, if profile the same then 5pts

10pts - lascannon

5pts or free - vox caster that actually does something useful.

 

I think paying around 65 pts for a squad with special weapons and heavy is about right and going for a cheapo loadout of grenade launcher and missile launcher for 57pts would also be decent. Bare bones infantry squads are boring!!

 

Also veterans should of course be troops, it baffles me that storm troopers are troops but vets not

Oh and a big one - command squads should be treated as charachters so should benefit from LOS of course.

As T'au Strike Teams are 80pts bare I doubt Guard squads will be less then that after a new book drops

 

 

I don't know man, hordes of infantry were never Tau's thing - they allways cost more and had better suff like 30'' str5 ap1 guns and a 4+ save. The lasgun armed, flak armour carrying guardsman is no where near that and having 2 better weapons in the squad doesn't change that. A fully kitted guardsman squad should never cost as much as a bare bones 10 man fire warrior squad.

[jarms48]

Wait, how does that mathhammer work out? I'll hash it out later/tomorrow, unless somebody wants to do the honors. Logically, a jump from S7 to S8  would provide an added benefit against T4, T7, and T8. You're going from wounding on 3s to wounding on 2s for T4, from 4s to 3s on T7, and from 5s to 4s on T8.

I already did it. Just check the last page. Lol.

 

This would provide a benefit even against -1 to hit or -1D, because it improves your likelihood of succeeding at one step of the shooting sequence for T4/7/8.

The mathhammer is the same when comparing it to a HB. A HB with a -1D is also 1 damage. A HB with a -1 to hit is effected the same way as well. Just check my math, all those modifiers would do is evenly lower both results.

[Guest Triszin]

Guess on combat patrol

 

2x combat patrol

 

30x Kriegers

5x rough riders

1x command

 

 

30x catachan

3x new sentinels

1x command

[Plague _Lord]

Guess on combat patrol

 

2x combat patrol

 

30x Kriegers

5x rough riders

1x command

 

 

30x catachan

3x new sentinels

1x command

 

I don't think catachans are getting anything just yet... probably will with a AoR, since GW has been pumping out all these limited edtion charachters, which have been amazing.

 

Combat patrol, my guess would be:

Krieg:

Command Squad

2x krieg infantry

1x Krieg Heavy weapons squad

1x rough riders

 

Cadian:

Command Squad

1x cadian infantry

1x cadian veterans/kasrkin

1x cadian heavy weapons

1x sentinel

 

I do wonder if the new rough riders, which have been rumoured as attilan, will have options for kriegers in the box.

[duz_]

A DKOK starter set would be hard to pass up... :wub: