State of the Union (Heresy)

[Dark Legionnare]

The cycle continues. At this rate, acknowledgment will come the day the Sicaran finally restocks. We may all be dead by then at this rate! (Exaggeration, obviously. ... ... Hopefully...) Edited May 10, 2021 by Dark Legionnare

[Kenzaburo]

@Brofist - That's not true. It's not a valid business approach to give an expletive about what the customers want. You shouldn't give them all they want either (as Ford said, we'd just have gotten faster horse carriages then), but go for the middle of the road and see what might make the most sense for your business. GW has always been a little bit weird about that, at least from the outside - but while that might have been due to lack of professional business skills in their early days I'd assume they got other reasons today not to do this or that. 

 

To make matters worse there was this interview on Goonhammer with the guy who made current day Titanicus where he described a bit of the management culture at GW. Well, let's just say the company is run like so many others, with weird and uninformed decisions, ego and problematic communication getting in the way of being the best company they can be. :) 

 

What I still struggle with is the idea of going from a selling product like the heresy, that has it's own (minor) event dedicated to it and with lots of potential to be dropped like this. Sure, Primaris came along and screwed with the vision for GWs standard marines, but that's something that should've been coordinated across GW and FW. You know, stuff like "Guys, we're gonna switch the scale of marines for 40k. We know you got a full product range and system for that with Heresy, let's work out how you can still support that, even if WE want to stop developing small scale marines." 

 

The other thing that just makes me scratch my head in surprise is what I've said before: how in the high heavens did no one think it wise to mention the heresy at least once? You have community managers who know full well that the fans are dropping the game because they think it's dead. The community managers should talke to the marketing and corporate communications team lead who then needs to formulate some sort of response for that for WH Fest. GW has been quite crafty about that in the past by letting studio guys slip some info in one on one talks on the show floor, if they didn't want to talk about it on stage. It's a good practice. That way it's not super-official and can still be changed but you got the word out nevertheless. 

 

This time they didn't - sure, no show floor and all that. Makes it just all the more important to have Troke or Ed make an off-hand comment on it. 

 

There IS indeed the chance that there's nothing coming and they are still kinda stuck with the heresy. The aforementioned interview with the Titanicus dev(can't remember the name, sorry) didn't shine the best light on organisation at FW. But even then it's better practice nowadays to say something about it. If you don't intend to drop Heresy entirely, handle it as they did with The Old World and the Sisters release. "Guys, right now we are stuck with other projects, but the Heresy is not lost nor forgotten. We are just in a bit of a Ruinstorm right now looking for the Astronomican. We will continue to bring out FAQs in irregular intervals until we get back on track. But we WILL be back. So long keep the fires of mankind burning. Cowabunga!" ... or something like this.

If they were to drop the heresy, then... well then I'd still advise to tell people about that, speaking as a marketing guy. Sure, more people might drop it and you take a hit in sales right now. BUT: the past has shown that most GW systems remain alive even if you drop support for them. Keep selling the minis as long as they are somewhat profitable, let the community handle rules and background. You just cash in as a company. And by ripping the band aid off, you disgruntle a few people, but it's a bit of freedom you give back to customers. Out of the hamster wheel, if you will. By not saying anything and still toying with hype cycles you do waaay more damage in the middle and long run. Don't mess with the hopes of customers, it ruins your image. And that's something you don't want after you built it up so carefully over the past 5-6 years. Don't create your own bad apples in the fan base to sour all the rest. 

 

In the end, your communications departments could be titled "product expectation management" - that might be more apt, tbh. Let them handle the proper way to tell people, once a business decision is made. But don't be cowards about it, it just hurts your customers and therefore yourself.

 

Sorry for that wall of text. :)

[Noserenda]

Precisely, @Cris R. 

 

The contrast between "new GW" style of communication on everything--including paintbrushes--and FW's style of just.....next to nothing....communicated on 30k is what makes it so frustrating. Clearly there is the infrastructure and corporate willpower to do more, that's just not being done for any number of reasons. 

Which i think is exactly why they should just pull all the FW teams into the main GW studio. Same teams and products but some expectation that they will provide some preview material, faqs, etc on a regular basis. Honestly its not that much of a jump these days but im hoping it might have more impact once normal service resumes post covid.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

Precisely, @Cris R. 

 

The contrast between "new GW" style of communication on everything--including paintbrushes--and FW's style of just.....next to nothing....communicated on 30k is what makes it so frustrating. Clearly there is the infrastructure and corporate willpower to do more, that's just not being done for any number of reasons. 

Which i think is exactly why they should just pull all the FW teams into the main GW studio. Same teams and products but some expectation that they will provide some preview material, faqs, etc on a regular basis. Honestly its not that much of a jump these days but im hoping it might have more impact once normal service resumes post covid.

 

 

You mean like a Specialist Games team that handles multiple game systems that deep dive into different parts of GW's IP, maybe even under the leadership of a GW veteran like Andy Hoare that oversees the development of these games? That would be a brilliant idea. 

 

 

 

Edit: The only reason we aren't getting any communication is because someone is specifically forbidding that communication from taking place. Every other system, even the ones not mentioned at WHFest, have more direct communication and mentions than the Heresy. Warcry, Necromunda, Shadespire, etc all show up in WD all the time. Their designers tweet about them. ONLY the heresy has a total information black out. 

 

And whats worse, is that even Anuj and other acknowledged how frustrating this blackout is. Why Heresy is singled out, I don't know, but there is obviously something intentional going on. 

 

 

Edit 2: A lot of Twitter and Reddit Heresy Haters absolutely LOVE to complain about the heresy players but the things they complain about are allowed to fester because there is no voice of authority providing true information. Look how toxic people have become about cursed city being redacted and absolutely nothing is slowing the toxicity down because GW has chosen radio silence. Its just a dumb strategy, I dont really care what the rationale is, we're beyond all that. We need news, and every day it isnt provided is a mistake. 

Edited May 10, 2021 by Marshal Rohr

[Noserenda]

I mean they arent communicating because they dont have to apparently and it hurts the game, (Kill team is a study in what happens when a game lacks AoD's momentum) like i said above i wouldnt look to disrupt the teams any more than pulling them up to the minimum standards of the core brands, and yeah, incidentally officially make AoD a specialist game proper.

There is probably some legacy reasons or office politics but i think the consumer benefits of regular exposure/news/faqs are obvious.

[MegaVolt87]

I mean they arent communicating because they dont have to apparently and it hurts the game, (Kill team is a study in what happens when a game lacks AoD's momentum) like i said above i wouldnt look to disrupt the teams any more than pulling them up to the minimum standards of the core brands, and yeah, incidentally officially make AoD a specialist game proper.

 

There is probably some legacy reasons or office politics but i think the consumer benefits of regular exposure/news/faqs are obvious.

 

If I had to guess internally, no one really wants to head HH because they don't want to work with a shoe string budget, wake up everyday to community roasting them harder than sisters burn heretics for not doing enough when its probably not even their fault. Why line up to be a HH dev when you could work in AoS or 40k with a budget of whatever you ask for? Plus you can sell your more out there ideas as "for the kids". HH is very set aesthetically, thematically there is little creative freedom when you think about it. Look at new Mal, he could seamlessly fit in a CSM 40k BL easily which is a sign of someone losing keeping 40k distinct from 30k. The current crop of devs and sculptors might want free reign to do whatever in HH, while at the same time someone somewhere says no. Look how wild things are in AoS and to a lesser extent in 40k, that kind of person doing that would see working on HH as a punishment. Creatives hate curbed control and a limited design space. I would even go as far to say HH doesn't have a consistent yearly budget allocated either year to year with what's been happening.

 

Best way for GW if they wanted to cut loose HH would be to re-stock all the OOP kits to at least claw back that market from re-casters, unseal the dark cells containing old GW legal to shut them down. Its not worth doing that though if they don't bring back the OOP kits first IMO. 

[Pacific81]

Guys, there was never a new GW. It's the same company. It never cared about you and it never will.

 

As someone who has been out of the loop for a while, I would definitely say at least the impression of this has changed and for me the difference is striking. 

 

I think at it's core GW has always been crewed by people who love what they do; making games, miniatures and rules and wanting other people to enjoy their creations. 

 

What has changed (and I don't know if this is the result of upper management change, shareholder pressure, whatever) is the company's relationship with it's customer base, and that looks to have improved immeasurably in the time I haven't been paying attention. 

I say this simply because the attitude previously (this is late 00's), caused me to completely lose passion for GW and its games. I don't think anyone who wasn't heavily invested at that time can appreciate quite how bad it was, to the point where one year it was referenced as the 'summer of terror' on some forums; almost relentless price rises, specialist games removed from sale, Finecast (don't you dare complain about it!), a rest-of-world sales ban (this affected me particularly as I was in a country with no gaming stores), zero social media presence, WD had turned into a sales pamphlet with zero content and it was 40k/WHFB-way or the highway. 

 

But for me, the most egregious element was the legal attacks and climate of fear that was created around websites and fan communities. This was their most passionate fans, the ones who cared enough to create websites and forums talking about GW games, that were issued with C&D for removal of content. Even if this only happened on a few occasions, the climate of fear that was permeating at that time meant that some forums became like Totalitarian-state networks, ruthlessly editing comments and content because they were so afraid of a hammer coming down on them. It was awful, but I can kind of understand because if I'd put all of the hours and money into running a website, I'd be afraid of it being shut down too. 

 

So returning these days it looks like a night and day comparison; of course some complaints are always going to remain, the wide customer base is not always getting what it wanted, but at least GW is giving the impression of listening. That horrible ogre that sat under a bridge and stopped any connection between the fans and creators, and whoever was responsible for that arrangement, has gone. Like I say it might be because I have been out of the loop for a while, and so not noticed the gradual change, but it feels like there are a lot more positives than there were a decade ago. 

[Kenzaburo]

Oh, you are absolutely right. Things overall have improved incredibly. But as someone said before, when they created higher standards for themselves those became the ones we measure them by now. I think GW overall has managed an impressive turnaround sometime around 2015/16 - around blowing the old world up, ironically. And those first couple of years when WHC started up, might have been my favorite approach to interacting with a community on the hobby side of things. The trash can video with it's hints for sisters and Thousand Sons was hilarioous. 

 

Nowadays things are a bit more streamlined, a little bit less wild (less of the tongue-in-cheek leak reactions), but that's okay. Basically, GW has grown up communications-wise. And just because they were acting like an immature child before doesn't mean I can't judge them by their grown-up standards. And as the company they are now I expect more of them. As I said above, there's a multitude of approaches to handling delays of a product or maybe even dropping it. Just not saying anything is not a good one. But again, I've been in that situation myself, heading a marketing department - sometimes there might be reasons for them not telling us, that might be down to simple things as ego, powerplays or just bad internal communication. If your CEO for some reason says "Don't talk about the heresy!" while Marketing goes "But sir, this is really not a good idea. How about we do..." "Don't talk about it.  We're done here!", then in the end there's nothing you can do. 

 

Of course I don't know if that's the case. And even then it doesn't mean GW is absolved, far from it. In that case, the dude responsible for it needs to learn via outcry of customers, that maybe marketing was right. Or that his marketing sucks or whatever. 

 

Bottom line is: The product expectation curve for Horus Heresy is handled badly and has been for about 2-3 years. And that's a bad thing.

 

EDIT: @MegaVolt That's some great points you bring up there and I could totally see that being the case. That's a whole different set of problems then - finding people who are themselves super-passionate about the heresy so they won't go for the shiny main product lines. 

Edited May 11, 2021 by Kenzaburo

[depthcharge12]

Trying to remain constructive here than my usual bouts of memeing - what are our lines of communication in this?

 

I used to remember the huge posts by Loken from Heresy Weekenders and the convos our community had with painters/devs/etc. I can’t seem to remember any sizable slide show or discussion since Prospero was coming out. Maybe it’s just me and there has been more, but the hype train and line of communication we had just faded into the mists of time.

[Cris R]

Trying to remain constructive here than my usual bouts of memeing - what are our lines of communication in this?

 

I used to remember the huge posts by Loken from Heresy Weekenders and the convos our community had with painters/devs/etc. I can’t seem to remember any sizable slide show or discussion since Prospero was coming out. Maybe it’s just me and there has been more, but the hype train and line of communication we had just faded into the mists of time.

 

In the U.S., the pandemic shutting down the major cons with a large GW/FW presence in 2020 and 2021 impacted a direct route of communication with the company. Aside from the GW/FW presentations, cons are one place where their staff could interact with 30k players on the gaming floor and the storefront booth. My con is the NOVA Open and the 30k events were among the "must-watch" ones for the scope and scale of the events, the legendary paint jobs for all the player's armies, and the great community that exists there for the system. GW staff would come and check them out and those interactions I think were important for helping them understand why people love the system beyond sales numbers and social media interactions. Obviously, I'm glad NOVA and other cons did the right thing during the pandemic and recognize con interactions may not impact a company's business decisions or communications strategy. But that direct person-to-person interaction that makes cons an important conduit between the company and the 30k community, so hopefully that will return for next year even if we need more traction for the system now.

[Brofist]

@Brofist - That's not true. It's not a valid business approach to give an expletive about what the customers want. You shouldn't give them all they want either (as Ford said, we'd just have gotten faster horse carriages then), but go for the middle of the road and see what might make the most sense for your business. GW has always been a little bit weird about that, at least from the outside - but while that might have been due to lack of professional business skills in their early days I'd assume they got other reasons today not to do this or that.

So returning these days it looks like a night and day comparison; of course some complaints are always going to remain, the wide customer base is not always getting what it wanted, but at least GW is giving the impression of listening.

My take is that the idea of a new friendly GW came from an old company finally getting it together and marketing their business like all the other big entertainment giants. Those cease and desists? They keep sending them. The price hikes? Still punitive. Oh and they even axed entire product lines just to sell slightly different models. The reason 3rd party bits are allowed to exist? GW lost a big court case, which is why they renamed all the things they didn’t actually have rights for.

 

So, I stand by what I said- they didn't care about you back then and they don't care about you today. The difference is that they do it with that big multinational corporate smile in the style of all the other big media companies. Under that veneer, its business as usual, run by the same people trying to squeeze money out of resin. If they want to ignore 30k, put a lid on news, or destroy the old world in favor of a new IP launch, they'll do with a shrug.

 

Most people on the ground doing work at GW/FW, from the writing to the models, are most definitely there because they want to work on something creative or trad games related. Otherwise, they'd work for a better company that pays them more. That's pretty unfair to them, but it’s pretty typical in the creative and entertainment industries. Those also aren’t the people making business decisions, who I bet money don’t even play games.

 

I’m not trying to be a doomer or whatever, just making the point that Pacific81 was getting at- there was never a new GW, just the same old company giving you the impression of being different. The lack of support for 30k doesn’t have to make sense because they don’t really care. They never did.

Edited May 11, 2021 by Brofist

[Pacific81]

@Brofist - I agree with you in the sense there that GW is a big company now and will direct its energies towards areas that it thinks will be most popular (and by extension make the most money). You get the feeling AoS is still a growing area and has a lot of room to develop. Necromunda has got a new boxset as I think it's probably (other than perhaps Blood Bowl, which has a massive independent following) the most popular of the 'specialist' games. You have a massive community on Yaktribe and FB that has done and will continue to play that game in numbers long after GW has stopped making new releases for it. Adeptus Titanicus seems to have scratched the Epic itch for a lot of people without GW having to do 100 new SKUs which a comprehensive relaunch of Epic would entail. 

 

I also agree that the scrapping of WHFB in the manner that it was carried out was possibly one of the most callous moves GW has ever done. I know of grown men that were almost reduced to tears (really) by it; a group of guys that used to travel to tournaments throughout Europe each year and were so into the game. Suddenly they just had the rug pulled out from under them, it really fractured that community. It's a shame GW didn't have enough confidence in its new product to be released alongside WHFB and attract new players under its own merits. 

 

I do think though that saying "they don't care" is probably a bit too wide a brush to tar the company with. As you have said, there will be the bean counters that are there for the company to (quite rightly) make money, and probably don't know a Space Marine from a Gretchin. But, there will be the creative types within the company, like the founders going back to Priestly et al (who really just didn't have that corporate behemoth, and all the things that entails, sat under them back then). And I wonder if this is where HH has stagnated. I do wonder if the passing of Alan Bligh has affected things so strongly here. I'm just completely speculating, but not having that strong, central torch-bearer who has such a strong passion for the game and setting might have knocked the wind out of the sales. These days you always see "designed by GW design team" on books and releases, but there has to be the originator and driving force behind those books. In the same way, you don't get the psuedo-historical Forge World books anymore since Warwick Kinrade stopped writing for them. 

 

I wonder if in this case, it's the lack of that 'driving force', taking these exciting new releases to the finance departments? And, it's a hard thing to say, but now perhaps with the Heresy no longer being the fashionable thing as the book series (which has now been around for a long time) is coming to an end.. 

Just a very long and rambling speculation on my part there!

[Noserenda]

From what id heard its not so much that Alan Bligh was the torchbearer that the current team are not so invested in his particular vision and dont have the same fairly long working relationship with the FW bosses which means more compromise and vulnerability to release shuffling. I suspect there is a big holdup on the resin front too, FW was hit a lot harder by covid working regulations than GW which is why they are struggling to keep stuff in stock broadly.

[WrathOfTheLion]

If that is truly the case, one would think that would provide some serious impetus to switch to more plastic development. At best case, they got caught flat footed and their support for the game system all but collapsed over the past year. Since that's the best case in my opinion, I'm of the mind that they deserve whatever criticism they're getting, as there's no escaping the accusation of negligence. Edited May 12, 2021 by WrathOfTheLion

[Churchill53]

I really do wonder why people keep using Alan Bligh as an excuse for fw lack of heresy content, I know he was the driving force of heresy etc, but he died 4 years ago this month, it was a big loss but any company that can’t adept over a four year period wouldn’t survive, gw/fw know exactly what they are doing and have planed, they may or may not expand heresy, and I really hope they do. But Bligh’s involvement at this point would have very little to do with anything

[Hungry Nostraman Lizard]

Point of order, plastic implementation takes between 3 to 5 years at GW from concept to actual models - or so says Jes Goodwin. If we don't see anything within the next year though, I'd say we're pretty much left by the road. Which sucks. However, 3D printer go brrrrrrrrRrrrrRr.
 

[StrangerOrders]

Wanted to chime in because someone earlier tried to cite LoTR (somehow) not getting a spotlight as a way of saying ALL Specialist Games were equally ignored.

 

LotR got another mother announced today (for a release this week no less) coupled with two dwarves released less than a month ago.

 

Just want to nix that reoccuring myth that all Specialist Games are treated the same when we are being pretty frequently snubbed.

[Cris R]

At this point 30k is in a similar place where LOTR was until 2016-2017, which was left on life-support by GW and kept alive by a very passionate fan base until the company saw revenue potential and market value in investing more resources into the line as the fan base helped grow the game. But the major different between the two situations is that LOTR benefitted from a pedigree that few fantasy or science fiction settings possess, making it easier to sell to a broader audience once GW decided to revive it. That said, 30k is not a new system from a startup company, so it's not a complete uphill battle to sell the game; it's simply one of the company's will. So I can't predict whether 30k's trajectory will follow the same course as LOTR, but the parallels between the two systems - and GW's role in shaping their fate - are worth noting in this conversation.

 

One important question that deserves attention is whether 30k will continue to receive support from the major cons if GW largely abandons the system. I think 30k focused events from gaming groups will help keep it alive within the existing player base, but major con support will determine whether the fan community can keep the game alive and get new converts like the LOTR folks did with cons like the NOVA Open during their dark ages.

[Brofist]

Well, my league is hosting the Zone Mortalis Friendly for LVO 2022. There are other groups that are organizing more traditional 30k games too

[Dark Legionnare]

Point of order, plastic implementation takes between 3 to 5 years at GW from concept to actual models - or so says Jes Goodwin. If we don't see anything within the next year though, I'd say we're pretty much left by the road. Which sucks. However, 3D printer go brrrrrrrrRrrrrRr.

 

AKA, "the MK II cometh"

 

Holding out hope they put 'em back up (TAKE MY BUSINESS, GEE-DUBS) but the resin bottles are accruing. Test MKIII's have come out wonderful.

[Cris R]

Well, my league is hosting the Zone Mortalis Friendly for LVO 2022. There are other groups that are organizing more traditional 30k games too

 

If you're doing ZM and there's some Centurion thrown in for good measure, I'll have to go. The Charlottesville folks have been the driving force for 30k events at the NOVA Open and have done a great job cultivating the community and great events that regularly sell out. If NOVA survives into 2022, I'm feeling optimistic that 30k will have its usual room and regular roster of players.

[sarabando]

Honestly GW should just licence the 30k table top out to a 3rd party at this point. Mournival has proven they are A. better at it and B. more passionate

[Hfran Morkai]

Speaking of, sadly Mournival events got hit with a C&D for their printed books as someone reported them to GW and they had to respond (as I understand it to protect their IP now and in the future) but fortunately it does only affect their physical prints and not the work they do.

[Hungry Nostraman Lizard]

Well, my league is hosting the Zone Mortalis Friendly for LVO 2022. There are other groups that are organizing more traditional 30k games too

Ooooh, bat-reps please! 

 

 

Point of order, plastic implementation takes between 3 to 5 years at GW from concept to actual models - or so says Jes Goodwin. If we don't see anything within the next year though, I'd say we're pretty much left by the road. Which sucks. However, 3D printer go brrrrrrrrRrrrrRr.

 

AKA, "the MK II cometh"

 

Holding out hope they put 'em back up (TAKE MY BUSINESS, GEE-DUBS) but the resin bottles are accruing. Test MKIII's have come out wonderful.

 

There's some really solid true scale Mk 2 and Mk 3 out there now, in traditional casting methods. Tortuga Bay and Txarli factory or whatever it is. Though the latter has weird... rubbery-esq resin. 

 

 

Well, my league is hosting the Zone Mortalis Friendly for LVO 2022. There are other groups that are organizing more traditional 30k games too

 

If you're doing ZM and there's some Centurion thrown in for good measure, I'll have to go. The Charlottesville folks have been the driving force for 30k events at the NOVA Open and have done a great job cultivating the community and great events that regularly sell out. If NOVA survives into 2022, I'm feeling optimistic that 30k will have its usual room and regular roster of players.

 

2022, might see you then! :)

 

Speaking of, sadly Mournival events got hit with a C&D for their printed books as someone reported them to GW and they had to respond (as I understand it to protect their IP now and in the future) but fortunately it does only affect their physical prints and not the work they do.

To be fair, they were taking money for the books, it was a matter of time. There could have been a more round-about way, like Patreon, or "suggested" donations, maybe? 

 

Mournival gives us Sicaran Squadrons. This makes me happy. Some of the Rites of War need updating, badly. 

[Noserenda]

Oh yeah the Mournival stuff is excellent, very much in the spirit of the old Tempus Fugitives rulebooks :) Selling stuff directly was always going to trigger lawyers though.