State of the Union (Heresy)

[Marshal Loss]

I'd be fine with a complete scale redo if it means continuing support, an AT-style supplement system, etc. The more crossover our models have with 40k the better our long-term future is.

[Joe]

Yeah, a slight re-scaling would help in the long run. Deathwatch/new-CSM proportions would be ideal in the long run. However, I'm still leery - they've generally shifted away from the older style of Space Marine construction over the years, so I expect we'd have slightly more limited build options consequently.

 

I just want Crusade in Heresy, man. And maybe for named characters to be restricted to certain missions / game sizes.

[No Foes Remain]

The issue is if GW go the route of limited builds like with the current primaris and new CSM lines, with the torsos and legs having certain match ups. Then they loose kitbashing potential with the current Firstborn kits unless they were getting redone, which with GW's push for primaris in 40k SM armies I doubt it.

[Billy the Squid]

 

Oh I am a regular member solely a Heresy fan from my love of the novels but just do not post much and like to come here to read people's threads and look at their armies. There are no internet points behind my intentions other than people were getting despondent and because I am bursting at the seams. I can only say so much about what I saw because if I am too specific someone will get in serious trouble and I never asked to become involved or to be shown. The starter set is real and release schedule permitting it will be before the end of the year. The armour in the set is not a copy and paste of forge world into plastic but an updated modern re-imagined design of an existing armour and is slightly bigger. The existing plastics will look slightly stumpy next to them from what I could see. No one needs to believe me because official news should come soon anyway.

This actually makes a lot of business sense because it targets two separate itches in 40k and 30k. If you want true/truer scale First Born in 40k, here are some better looking Marines that you can use to make them look reasonable next to your opponent's Primaris models. If you're a 30k veteran or new player who wants shiny new models for your 30k legions that'll look amazing on the table, we've got that for you as well.

 

Obviously this could be irritating for established players who have made a lot of investments in their Legions. But Dark Angels players have already started making this journey with the Interemptors and Deathwing Companions, so this scale adjustment is already shaping the game's look. And third party manufactures like Tortuga Bay have been breaking into this space, so it was only a matter of time GW and FW would do this. If it revives the game, then I'm fine with it even if it makes my Calth and Prospero boxes look a little more on the stumpier side.

 

 

The problem is that it causes issues for all the legion specific models, units and parts, some of the models for the HH are stunning. What we'll get are generic model designs from 40k with none of the finesse of the existing range, none of the legion specific designs. 

 

That's not reviving the game (which only needed reviving because GW's complete inability to covey a coherent thought) that's GW dumping one product line to merge with another.

 

Honestly, does anyone think GW is going to reproduce parts for specific units as replacement to match with the new size? Or re do the Character series in true(er) scale size? I'd like to believe that, but I've known GW far too long to hope that they'd do that.

 

If they go through with this it's likely to faze out legion specific models and parts with generic space marines with only the paint job and transfers differentiating units. I hope I'm wrong, but I in no way trust in GW's ability to not screw something up. GW will market it as better for the HH, it's more GW merging the 30k &40k product lines. 

Edited May 16, 2021 by Billy the Squid

[No Foes Remain]

That's a good point Billy, some of the older Legion units will look strange next to units that are slightly bigger than them and that's not accounting for the named characters as well.

[Billy the Squid]

That's my biggest concern, there's so many legion specific models now, how would GW merge the two lines if there's a size discrepancy, would they even try to replace them? I doubt it.

 

I'm hoping that they update the armour sets in a legion specific way (like the White Scars models) which allows us enough flexibility to mix and match legs and parts with existing model sets, so we can update our older model range with new parts in a mix and match way, without replacing the whole set. 

 

I'm just thinking of all the unique unit models which will need replacing if they go the fixed pose route, which they've been in 40k. I'm hoping they continue the White Scars update route, and update some of the legion armour marks, in that way so we can steal some legs, chest or head pieces to mix with older models without it hopefully looking too out of place in some older legion units, or mix them with the generic armour marks to add some variety. 

 

But we'll see. 

Edited May 16, 2021 by Billy the Squid

[Cadmus Tyro]

 

 

Oh I am a regular member solely a Heresy fan from my love of the novels but just do not post much and like to come here to read people's threads and look at their armies. There are no internet points behind my intentions other than people were getting despondent and because I am bursting at the seams. I can only say so much about what I saw because if I am too specific someone will get in serious trouble and I never asked to become involved or to be shown. The starter set is real and release schedule permitting it will be before the end of the year. The armour in the set is not a copy and paste of forge world into plastic but an updated modern re-imagined design of an existing armour and is slightly bigger. The existing plastics will look slightly stumpy next to them from what I could see. No one needs to believe me because official news should come soon anyway.

 

This actually makes a lot of business sense because it targets two separate itches in 40k and 30k. If you want true/truer scale First Born in 40k, here are some better looking Marines that you can use to make them look reasonable next to your opponent's Primaris models. If you're a 30k veteran or new player who wants shiny new models for your 30k legions that'll look amazing on the table, we've got that for you as well.

 

Obviously this could be irritating for established players who have made a lot of investments in their Legions. But Dark Angels players have already started making this journey with the Interemptors and Deathwing Companions, so this scale adjustment is already shaping the game's look. And third party manufactures like Tortuga Bay have been breaking into this space, so it was only a matter of time GW and FW would do this. If it revives the game, then I'm fine with it even if it makes my Calth and Prospero boxes look a little more on the stumpier side.

 

The problem is that it causes issues for all the legion specific models, units and parts, some of the models for the HH are stunning. What we'll get are generic model designs from 40k with none of the finesse of the existing range, none of the legion specific designs. 

 

That's not reviving the game (which only needed reviving because GW's complete inability to covey a coherent thought) that's GW dumping one product line to merge with another.

 

Honestly, does anyone think GW is going to reproduce parts for specific units as replacement to match with the new size? Or re do the Character series in true(er) scale size? I'd like to believe that, but I've known GW far too long to hope that they'd do that.

 

If they go through with this it's likely to faze out legion specific models and parts with generic space marines with only the paint job and transfers differentiating units. I hope I'm wrong, but I in no way trust in GW's ability to not screw something up. GW will market it as better for the HH, it's more GW merging the 30k &40k product lines.

True, but your point falls down as an implied counter argument to the rumour, they are already creating legion specific models using CAD (with less detail than the original sculpts) at larger scale. Just look at the DA interemptors.

 

I’m not sure how much 30k stuff you own but I’ve been working on a WE using old resin Mkiv, I’m having to keep the force in resin (looking at you assault marines) because the plastic MKiv is already scaled to a larger size than the pre existing resin counterparts. A lot of the original legion specific units were designed to this scale, so they will look smaller. But not all units are like this. The MkV assault squad is scaled towards current mkiii (perhaps slightly larger) and the medusan immortals are on par with current plastic mkiii. Scale creep is something that is already happening.

 

The current plastic Mkiv kit suffers from the age old “squat” pose, which will naturally make them look more “stubby” compared to new sculpts (even when compared to Mkiii).

 

Cadmus

[Joe]

Truth be told, there's quite a few of the older kits that could functionally be dumped in favour of upgrades / parts kits as the majority of the detail is focused on the torso, helmet or weapons. You start to run into issues with a few of the more detailed ones like the Kakophoni and Palatine Blades, however.

 

There's a few which scale well with new-CSM / Deathwatch, though. Ashen Circle come to mind.

[Billy the Squid]

 

 

 

Oh I am a regular member solely a Heresy fan from my love of the novels but just do not post much and like to come here to read people's threads and look at their armies. There are no internet points behind my intentions other than people were getting despondent and because I am bursting at the seams. I can only say so much about what I saw because if I am too specific someone will get in serious trouble and I never asked to become involved or to be shown. The starter set is real and release schedule permitting it will be before the end of the year. The armour in the set is not a copy and paste of forge world into plastic but an updated modern re-imagined design of an existing armour and is slightly bigger. The existing plastics will look slightly stumpy next to them from what I could see. No one needs to believe me because official news should come soon anyway.

This actually makes a lot of business sense because it targets two separate itches in 40k and 30k. If you want true/truer scale First Born in 40k, here are some better looking Marines that you can use to make them look reasonable next to your opponent's Primaris models. If you're a 30k veteran or new player who wants shiny new models for your 30k legions that'll look amazing on the table, we've got that for you as well.

 

Obviously this could be irritating for established players who have made a lot of investments in their Legions. But Dark Angels players have already started making this journey with the Interemptors and Deathwing Companions, so this scale adjustment is already shaping the game's look. And third party manufactures like Tortuga Bay have been breaking into this space, so it was only a matter of time GW and FW would do this. If it revives the game, then I'm fine with it even if it makes my Calth and Prospero boxes look a little more on the stumpier side.

 

The problem is that it causes issues for all the legion specific models, units and parts, some of the models for the HH are stunning. What we'll get are generic model designs from 40k with none of the finesse of the existing range, none of the legion specific designs. 

 

That's not reviving the game (which only needed reviving because GW's complete inability to covey a coherent thought) that's GW dumping one product line to merge with another.

 

Honestly, does anyone think GW is going to reproduce parts for specific units as replacement to match with the new size? Or re do the Character series in true(er) scale size? I'd like to believe that, but I've known GW far too long to hope that they'd do that.

 

If they go through with this it's likely to faze out legion specific models and parts with generic space marines with only the paint job and transfers differentiating units. I hope I'm wrong, but I in no way trust in GW's ability to not screw something up. GW will market it as better for the HH, it's more GW merging the 30k &40k product lines.

True, but your point falls down as an implied counter argument to the rumour, they are already creating legion specific models using CAD (with less detail than the original sculpts) at larger scale. Just look at the DA interemptors.

 

I’m not sure how much 30k stuff you own but I’ve been working on a WE using old resin Mkiv, I’m having to keep the force in resin (looking at you assault marines) because the plastic MKiv is already scaled to a larger size than the pre existing resin counterparts. A lot of the original legion specific units were designed to this scale, so they will look smaller. But not all units are like this. The MkV assault squad is scaled towards current mkiii (perhaps slightly larger) and the medusan immortals are on par with current plastic mkiii. Scale creep is something that is already happening.

 

The current plastic Mkiv kit suffers from the age old “squat” pose, which will naturally make them look more “stubby” compared to new sculpts (even when compared to Mkiii).

 

Cadmus

 

 

Not really, as those are new units, I'm thinking of the older more Legion specific units like Invictus Suzerians, Palatine Blades etc. where the torso and the body are cast in a single piece. 

 

That's my concern, would GW recast those units or leave them by the wayside? I'm thinking the latter. Other unit specific units we can create ourselves through the Legion upgrade kits, which as you pointed out, have been scaled in line with the plastic mk  armours rather than resin. 

 

I'm hoping they go down the white Scars route and create legion specific armour mrks. which look to be scaled larger, but allow for some overlap with legion specific plastic upgrades and plastic armour mrks to kit bash units, so the line between one scale and another doesn't look so jarring, while giving us the flexibility to create units with a mix of parts and phase out older models if we chose 

 

As I said, the issue for me and the HH range is those single cast pieces like Suzerains etc. will the scale difference be jarring? I don't know, I've not seen the new Intermptors against a Palatine Blade or one of the older Legion specific units for size comparison, and the difficulty with those models is the legs and torso come as a single piece with makes it fiddly to convert without damaging some of the more intricate details. 

 

If they do release updated elaborate chest/ leg piece armour marks updated for scale as an upgrade kit for each Legion (or can be proxied in as parts of a legion specific unit) I'll be ecstatic, but this being GW, I tend to err on the side of caution, with their habit of being able to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. 

Edited May 16, 2021 by Billy the Squid

[Cadmus Tyro]

The Suzerains are a “relatively” new sculpt when compared with immortals (produced around the time of book 2) and MKV assault marines predate even the immortals.

 

My point is this, there are varying scales currently within the HH range, both new and old models alike. The recent trend has been to stick to the larger less detailed (CAD designed) scale. Even with these slight scale differences, models from different ranges do not look out of place (we are not talking about the difference between first born and primaris here).

 

HH is generally catered towards those who have been gaming for a while (forgive the generalisation), GW know their target market. We may see some scale creep (which keeps new minis in line with current scaling) but I doubt it will be at the level of primaris rescale, because by doing that, they will exclude their target market.

 

Anyway, I’m hoping the rumours are true, but I have to admit warhammer fest left me feeling very discouraged....

 

Cadmus

[Billy the Squid]

The Suzerains are a “relatively” new sculpt when compared with immortals (produced around the time of book 2) and MKV assault marines predate even the immortals.

 

My point is this, there are varying scales currently within the HH range, both new and old models alike. The recent trend has been to stick to the larger less detailed (CAD designed) scale. Even with these slight scale differences, models from different ranges do not look out of place (we are not talking about the difference between first born and primaris here).

 

HH is generally catered towards those who have been gaming for a while (forgive the generalisation), GW know their target market. We may see some scale creep (which keeps new minis in line with current scaling) but I doubt it will be at the level of primaris rescale, because by doing that, they will exclude their target market.

 

Anyway, I’m hoping the rumours are true, but I have to admit warhammer fest left me feeling very discouraged....

 

Cadmus

 

I think it's safe to say most of us that have got into the HH are what could be considered veterans of the warhammer world, so not too much of a generalisation. I only picked up the HH in the last couple of years, after a long break from gaming, but I first got into 40k back in the 2nd edition, so probably the mid/ late 90's when I started. 

 

Okay, that's good to know, as I said I've not seen the Interemptors lined up against other Legion unique units so it's a bit difficult to gauge size, from pictures. I do hope they release Legion specific armours of the various marks, and that along with the more recent upgrade kits allows us some flexibility when modelling, or "upgrading" some parts of older units (I don't have too many frm the HH yet as I've only been got back into 40k the last couple of years) without there being a noticeable discrepancy in size ie: Primaris then I think it should be fine. 

 

I do hope they push out significantly more Legion unique armours, I really do, (not so much the set pose of the newer CSM, but in line with the White Scars, Interemptors multi part kits)

 

I think the biggest issue exposed with Warhammer fest for the HH is the complete lack of communication from GW, I remember what they were like back in the early 2000's and FW's communication and release time table was absolutely appalling back then as well. It's one of the most frustrating things when it comes to "specialist games" I remember how they just dumped BFG, really good game and they just cut off support without a word.

 

I don't think that will happen to the HH, but it wouldn't kill them to layout a road map of their plan every 2/3 months. Basically a development diary. 

Edited May 16, 2021 by Billy the Squid

[Cadmus Tyro]

I agree, but GWs current marketing model seems to be aimed at controlling information to set timings. Think about it, if you knew for sure the development team were working on HH 2.0 and there would be huge plastic release, but it wasn’t for at least 6 months. What would you do with your hard earned cash? Personally I’d be saving everything, in the fear that the new rules will invalidate any purchases I make before the new rules drop.

 

By controlling pre release information, they can control (at least to some degree) what you spend your hobby cash on. They want us to be focused on the new current shiny releases, rather than thinking about future potential releases. “Oh look at those new Aeronautica thunder hawks, they look great, I might pick a few of these up and get into that system, as there’s no HH on the horizon”.

 

That’s why GW have gone to significant lengths to “shore up” on any potential sources for leaks. Most of the leaks we get these days are from independent retailers getting stock or stock information prior to the release. The 40k leaks are coming from in box leaflets, the plastic ZM release information came from Chinese shipping information available in the public sector. With the new factory refit, I suspect most of the kits are being made in house, and it’s much easier to control the flow of information from your own employees.

 

On a side note, it’s interesting that the new SM aeronautica releases all focus on HH designs....

 

Cadmus

[Pacific81]

Thanks for your input! I’m keeping my fingers crossed. This radio silence was always going to lead to either heresy dying or the calm before the storm. Glad to hear ppl saying it’s the latter

I don't think Horus Heresy as a concept will 'die' through lack of official support. Look at cancelled GW games that thrived - Blood Bowl was having tournaments with hundreds of players attending and a thriving community before the game was re-launched. Same with Necromunda, Epic etc.

 

I think the concept is strong enough, and has enough passionate fans, that it will endure without official support. Think that pre-heresy gaming became a thing without even any official miniatures or rules, just some fancy art on a TCG! :)

[Cris R]

 

The Suzerains are a “relatively” new sculpt when compared with immortals (produced around the time of book 2) and MKV assault marines predate even the immortals.

 

My point is this, there are varying scales currently within the HH range, both new and old models alike. The recent trend has been to stick to the larger less detailed (CAD designed) scale. Even with these slight scale differences, models from different ranges do not look out of place (we are not talking about the difference between first born and primaris here).

 

HH is generally catered towards those who have been gaming for a while (forgive the generalisation), GW know their target market. We may see some scale creep (which keeps new minis in line with current scaling) but I doubt it will be at the level of primaris rescale, because by doing that, they will exclude their target market.

 

Anyway, I’m hoping the rumours are true, but I have to admit warhammer fest left me feeling very discouraged....

 

Cadmus

 

Okay, that's good to know, as I said I've not seen the Interemptors lined up against other Legion unique units so it's a bit difficult to gauge size, from pictures. I do hope they release Legion specific armours of the various marks, and that along with the more recent upgrade kits allows us some flexibility when modelling, or "upgrading" some parts of older units (I don't have too many frm the HH yet as I've only been got back into 40k the last couple of years) without there being a noticeable discrepancy in size ie: Primaris then I think it should be fine. 

 

 

This is why I said Dark Angel players - like myself - have already tackled this scale issue because our Interemptors are larger than most of the 30k Power Armor Marine range, starting from the old FW sculpts to the newer ones done in plastic. The decision to release newly re-scaled models is simply an expansion of this trend that we've been seeing with these models.

 

GW and FW are not necessarily creating "generic model designs" like 40k through these potential kits. FW and GW have always maintained a general line of models like the MKIIIs, MKIVs, Cataphractii, and Tartaros units that you can customize for your Legion. They also release Legion specific HQs, Dreads, unique units, and upgrade kits that you can add to your plastic forces to keep the Legion's look and flavor. Given that we're talking about changing generic plastic kits - not the Legion-specific models - I don't see how this move eliminates the aesthetic flavor of each Legion. It just reinforces the existing business model.

 

It's also unlikely they're going to release 18 Legion's worth of specific torso and leg upgrades. I'm not sure how recently you got back into 30k, but a few years ago FW did a complete purge of most of the Legion-specific upgrades such as torsos, heads, and shoulder pads. FW left behind one set of heads and shoulder pads in one either MKIII or MKIV for each legion, a small number of Legion-specific upgrades to create specific units, and Legion-specific Rhino doors. FW could return to form with this new release, but it's more likely they'll keep the existing 30k/Necromunda/Adeptus Titanicus model where you pick up a GW plastic kit and buy the corresponding FW shoulder pads and heads to customize them. 

 

That said, you're right in noting that moving towards newly re-scaled Marines can encounter what I call the 40k "finecast problem." In 40k, you have the effort to release newer plastic models, including for HQs, but this movement creates more disparity between factions that continue to have a lot of finecast models and those that have more plastic kits. 30k already has this issue when you look at Legions that received more recent upgrades - Blood Angels, Dark Angels, and White Scars - and those that haven't. Releasing the new kits will reinforce this disparity and I'm not sure that FW or GW will address it - or is even interested in doing so - as it creates newer models.

Edited May 16, 2021 by Cris R

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

Given we recently saw the Necromunda range get resin upgrades ported over to new plastic frames, I'd love to see each legion get a plastic upgrade sprue in a similar vein, maybe akin to the 40k chapter ones but with torsos as well and some of the Legion-specific options? just wish-listing of course

[Cris R]

Given we recently saw the Necromunda range get resin upgrades ported over to new plastic frames, I'd love to see each legion get a plastic upgrade sprue in a similar vein, maybe akin to the 40k chapter ones but with torsos as well and some of the Legion-specific options? just wish-listing of course

 

Possibly, but Necromunda has fewer factions than the 18 Legions in 30k. And when you look at how they've handled plastic upgrades for Space Marines, it's been limited to the "big four" Original Founding chapters - Ultras, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves - plus a few more like Raven Guard and Deathwatch.

 

That said, it would be peak GW if they released Traitor and Loyalist plastic upgrade kits so you had to buy $100 plus worth of sprues just to get one or two upgrade sets. I'm going to drop talking about this idea before they see it and run with it...

[Sarvis]

 

 

Given we recently saw the Necromunda range get resin upgrades ported over to new plastic frames, I'd love to see each legion get a plastic upgrade sprue in a similar vein, maybe akin to the 40k chapter ones but with torsos as well and some of the Legion-specific options? just wish-listing of course

Possibly, but Necromunda has fewer factions than the 18 Legions in 30k. And when you look at how they've handled plastic upgrades for Space Marines, it's been limited to the "big four" Original Founding chapters - Ultras, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves - plus a few more like Raven Guard and Deathwatch.

 

That said, it would be peak GW if they released Traitor and Loyalist plastic upgrade kits so you had to buy $100 plus worth of sprues just to get one or two upgrade sets. I'm going to drop talking about this idea before they see it and run with it...

Every loyalist legion in 40k has an upgrade sprue

[Cris R]

 

 

Given we recently saw the Necromunda range get resin upgrades ported over to new plastic frames, I'd love to see each legion get a plastic upgrade sprue in a similar vein, maybe akin to the 40k chapter ones but with torsos as well and some of the Legion-specific options? just wish-listing of course

Possibly, but Necromunda has fewer factions than the 18 Legions in 30k. And when you look at how they've handled plastic upgrades for Space Marines, it's been limited to the "big four" Original Founding chapters - Ultras, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves - plus a few more like Raven Guard and Deathwatch.

 

That said, it would be peak GW if they released Traitor and Loyalist plastic upgrade kits so you had to buy $100 plus worth of sprues just to get one or two upgrade sets. I'm going to drop talking about this idea before they see it and run with it...

Every loyalist legion in 40k has an upgrade sprue

That doesn’t undermine my point, which is that producing 18 plastic upgrade kits - not just 9 - for a specific range has various challenges. In particular, does GW see potential revenue that can offset the costs of creating an entire plastic line of 18 30k upgrade sprues and generate a profit? That’s the question and I’m not sure it would unless the new plastic Power Armor range expanded the player base to 40k levels. Folks who have a better handling on manufacturing and distribution costs in the hobby can correct me, especially when comparing sculpting, manufacturing, and distributing plastic upgrades versus resin ones.

 

One alternative would be taking the page from 40k and issuing plastic upgrades for more renown Legions as part of this new launch. It could irritate players who play other Legions but this move could reinforce interest in the new plastic range and game while addressing the issues above. And if the 40k Loyalists could use some of these sprues, that would help make this smaller range expand its appeal beyond 30k players. So that's the way forward here if GW and FW wanted follow Necromunda's foray into plastic upgrades.

 

On another issue, has anyone done a chronological timeline of when the Legion-specific models and characters were released? That would probably give us a sense of which models need updating, especially compared to the newer resin and plastic releases.

Edited May 16, 2021 by Cris R

[MegaVolt87]

I think plastic legion upgrades for all could be done in plastic. However I would not do torso's, and I would do x5 heads and x5 paired shoulder pads per pack. I would re-scale legion unique units in resin, but have the torso separate. This would tie into my HH revival plan I posted earlier in this topic. Don't take this as an insult, but some of you are asking too much too quickly, others are asking not enough as if you feel like you don't deserve it. 

[Cris R]

Here is how I would turn around 30k if I was in the FW studio. It’s a long, slow expensive vision because 30k is just that damaged and mismanaged as a product line at this point to fix it properly requires effort.

 

Short term- Here we are showing the existing community they are no longer forgotten. We want to retain the existing community and fill the gaps in their collections. Tentative moves are made here to grow, the game gets more wider promotion.

 

Legion praetors (Terminator and power armour)

Legion levi dreads

Legion Dual banner + centurion (terminator and power armour) for command squads + centurion/consuls use.

New starter set (calth/ prospero revamp + mini rulebook)

Annual FAQ/ Legion Approved via war com PDF download implemented

More community engagement, content roadmaps, WIP renders etc.

Weekly HH community spotlight on war com, studio editorial on community HH hobby submissions.

GW store employees/ managers can no longer turn away FW products/ systems players/customers from their stores, customers are given a line/ channel to report to GW non complying stores as they are now FW friendly everywhere. FW sales ordered in store count for store sales targets, store pickup + free postage regardless of order value via a GW store. 

 

Medium term- The game has begun to mature/ stabilize, new players have a value buy in for the game, HH is a featured specialist game on the communities mind like the others are. It has consistent releases and has shaken off the reputation of an unsupported dead system. The core community vets are no longer doomsaying the 30k hobby, the salt is at non critical levels, there is more growing positivity. This has encouraged more newer players to join.

 

Revised red books + main rulebook, not a complete edition change over.

Legion shoulder pad upgrades + helms in plastic

New updated starter box

Backfill of new character sculpts for characters like Maloghurst, Golog etc that have rules already.

New character sculpts + rules for "big names" like Forrix, Lucious, Ahrahim etc

New black books start up again, we see the dark mechanicum introduced. The existing legions are largely fixed at this point, a pivot back to the mechanicum, Imperial army/ milita’s, demons/god marked demons, and Custodes briefly to allow for time for the long term legions plans implementation/ rollout.

 

Long term- sorry guys here is where the company will start to annoy/ hit the wallet, worse value to turn a buck from the customer etc. FW/ GW is a business, "accountomancers" etc. This is the Necromunda model being used from here. You will only need multiple boxes for more squad size, not upgrades as they will have all required included (excluding the mk II tac squad box, which will be like the mk III- IV ones content wise.) This is however the beginning of the 30k renaissance.

 

x10 man mk II tac squad, x5 have running leg pose.

x5 man box of combo breachers + tactical support squad. 

x5 man box of combo Assault squad + despoiler squad, mixed legs/Running legs, separate Mk III-IV boxes.

x5 man combo Legion recon squad + Legion seekers, mixed legs/running legs, separate Mk V- VI boxes.

x5 man Legion heavy support squad, separate mk III- IV boxes.

x1 rapier weapons platform (all options with one modular mount/platform, x2 mk III crew, x2 mk IV crew options)

 

Yep, that’s right all the core infantry is plastic. I hear you saying that’s not everything, where are my mk II assault squad? Right there, its one mk II tac squad box and two x5 man mk III assault squad boxes for the jump packs. Vet squad is made by combo purchasing the other boxes, it doesn’t need a dedicated box, because $$. Doing the infantry this way moves it all to plastic for accessibility, shrinks the product line as small as possible where there are a of common core infantry and is play from the box as is. Mixing the desired armour marks is possible, but it will be at a premium cost, a luxury because everything needed is accounted for in this revamp.

 

Non LoW vehicles move to plastic, some become dual/ multi kit where appropriate

 

Future- 30k and the community are well established and thriving. GW looks to the completion of 30k and the future of FW in its business. 

 

 

New legion unique units/ vehicles, reflecting the latter stages of the HH.

Plastic LoW kits

New edition rules + red books

Black book for seige of Terra

THE EMPEROR in the character series + rules

demon primarchs

Black book(s) during the scouring era, up till the chapter reforms are enacted/ implemented.

 

 

At this point FW can take the reigns of “old 40K” like they are with Warhammer old world, everything from scouring right up till the 13^th black crusade is concluded. Old vets can retire here in peace with their old marines and setting if the primaris are still not accepted/ old marines axed from main 40k.

Re-upping MegaVolt87's HH revival plan because it's really good

[Sarvis]

 

 

 

Given we recently saw the Necromunda range get resin upgrades ported over to new plastic frames, I'd love to see each legion get a plastic upgrade sprue in a similar vein, maybe akin to the 40k chapter ones but with torsos as well and some of the Legion-specific options? just wish-listing of course

Possibly, but Necromunda has fewer factions than the 18 Legions in 30k. And when you look at how they've handled plastic upgrades for Space Marines, it's been limited to the "big four" Original Founding chapters - Ultras, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves - plus a few more like Raven Guard and Deathwatch.

 

That said, it would be peak GW if they released Traitor and Loyalist plastic upgrade kits so you had to buy $100 plus worth of sprues just to get one or two upgrade sets. I'm going to drop talking about this idea before they see it and run with it...

Every loyalist legion in 40k has an upgrade sprue

That doesn’t undermine my point, which is that producing 18 plastic upgrade kits - not just 9 - for a specific range has various challenges. In particular, does GW see potential revenue that can offset the costs of creating an entire plastic line of 18 30k upgrade sprues and generate a profit? That’s the question and I’m not sure it would unless the new plastic Power Armor range expanded the player base to 40k levels. Folks who have a better handling on manufacturing and distribution costs in the hobby can correct me, especially when comparing sculpting, manufacturing, and distributing plastic upgrades versus resin ones.

 

One alternative would be taking the page from 40k and issuing plastic upgrades for more renown Legions as part of this new launch. It could irritate players who play other Legions but this move could reinforce interest in the new plastic range and game while addressing the issues above. And if the 40k Loyalists could use some of these sprues, that would help make this smaller range expand its appeal beyond 30k players. So that's the way forward here if GW and FW wanted follow Necromunda's foray into plastic upgrades.

 

On another issue, has anyone done a chronological timeline of when the Legion-specific models and characters were released? That would probably give us a sense of which models need updating, especially compared to the newer resin and plastic releases.

I wasn’t trying to undermine your point... I was just mentioning that there are 10 upgrade sprues(11 if you count the BT one) out there now, not just a couple.

[Cris R]

 

 

 

 

Given we recently saw the Necromunda range get resin upgrades ported over to new plastic frames, I'd love to see each legion get a plastic upgrade sprue in a similar vein, maybe akin to the 40k chapter ones but with torsos as well and some of the Legion-specific options? just wish-listing of course

Possibly, but Necromunda has fewer factions than the 18 Legions in 30k. And when you look at how they've handled plastic upgrades for Space Marines, it's been limited to the "big four" Original Founding chapters - Ultras, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves - plus a few more like Raven Guard and Deathwatch.

 

That said, it would be peak GW if they released Traitor and Loyalist plastic upgrade kits so you had to buy $100 plus worth of sprues just to get one or two upgrade sets. I'm going to drop talking about this idea before they see it and run with it...

Every loyalist legion in 40k has an upgrade sprue

That doesn’t undermine my point, which is that producing 18 plastic upgrade kits - not just 9 - for a specific range has various challenges. In particular, does GW see potential revenue that can offset the costs of creating an entire plastic line of 18 30k upgrade sprues and generate a profit? That’s the question and I’m not sure it would unless the new plastic Power Armor range expanded the player base to 40k levels. Folks who have a better handling on manufacturing and distribution costs in the hobby can correct me, especially when comparing sculpting, manufacturing, and distributing plastic upgrades versus resin ones.

 

One alternative would be taking the page from 40k and issuing plastic upgrades for more renown Legions as part of this new launch. It could irritate players who play other Legions but this move could reinforce interest in the new plastic range and game while addressing the issues above. And if the 40k Loyalists could use some of these sprues, that would help make this smaller range expand its appeal beyond 30k players. So that's the way forward here if GW and FW wanted follow Necromunda's foray into plastic upgrades.

ut 

On another issue, has anyone done a chronological timeline of when the Legion-specific models and characters were released? That would probably give us a sense of which models need updating, especially compared to the newer resin and plastic releases.

I wasn’t trying to undermine your point... I was just mentioning that there are 10 upgrade sprues(11 if you count the BT one) out there now, not just a couple.

 

No, I totally get your point. It's 12 if you included Deathwatch, so it's a sizable number of plastic upgrade sprues for 40k Space Marines. You could include the other upgrade sprues that exist or coming out for other 40k factions into the overall 40k upgrade sprue line, so the number is closer to the magic number of 18. I think MegaVolt made a good point about not asking enough from GW, so maybe this is one area where we could ask for more investment from GW and not simply FW.

[Sarvis]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Given we recently saw the Necromunda range get resin upgrades ported over to new plastic frames, I'd love to see each legion get a plastic upgrade sprue in a similar vein, maybe akin to the 40k chapter ones but with torsos as well and some of the Legion-specific options? just wish-listing of course

Possibly, but Necromunda has fewer factions than the 18 Legions in 30k. And when you look at how they've handled plastic upgrades for Space Marines, it's been limited to the "big four" Original Founding chapters - Ultras, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves - plus a few more like Raven Guard and Deathwatch.

 

That said, it would be peak GW if they released Traitor and Loyalist plastic upgrade kits so you had to buy $100 plus worth of sprues just to get one or two upgrade sets. I'm going to drop talking about this idea before they see it and run with it...

Every loyalist legion in 40k has an upgrade sprue

That doesn’t undermine my point, which is that producing 18 plastic upgrade kits - not just 9 - for a specific range has various challenges. In particular, does GW see potential revenue that can offset the costs of creating an entire plastic line of 18 30k upgrade sprues and generate a profit? That’s the question and I’m not sure it would unless the new plastic Power Armor range expanded the player base to 40k levels. Folks who have a better handling on manufacturing and distribution costs in the hobby can correct me, especially when comparing sculpting, manufacturing, and distributing plastic upgrades versus resin ones.

 

One alternative would be taking the page from 40k and issuing plastic upgrades for more renown Legions as part of this new launch. It could irritate players who play other Legions but this move could reinforce interest in the new plastic range and game while addressing the issues above. And if the 40k Loyalists could use some of these sprues, that would help make this smaller range expand its appeal beyond 30k players. So that's the way forward here if GW and FW wanted follow Necromunda's foray into plastic upgrades.

ut

On another issue, has anyone done a chronological timeline of when the Legion-specific models and characters were released? That would probably give us a sense of which models need updating, especially compared to the newer resin and plastic releases.

I wasn’t trying to undermine your point... I was just mentioning that there are 10 upgrade sprues(11 if you count the BT one) out there now, not just a couple.

No, I totally get your point. It's 12 if you included Deathwatch, so it's a sizable number of plastic upgrade sprues for 40k Space Marines. You could include the other upgrade sprues that exist or coming out for other 40k factions into the overall 40k upgrade sprue line, so the number is closer to the magic number of 18. I think MegaVolt made a good point about not asking enough from GW, so maybe this is one area where we could ask for more investment from GW and not simply FW.

Ope I actually included DW in my 11, is there a twelfth I’ve missed??

[Cris R]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Given we recently saw the Necromunda range get resin upgrades ported over to new plastic frames, I'd love to see each legion get a plastic upgrade sprue in a similar vein, maybe akin to the 40k chapter ones but with torsos as well and some of the Legion-specific options? just wish-listing of course

Possibly, but Necromunda has fewer factions than the 18 Legions in 30k. And when you look at how they've handled plastic upgrades for Space Marines, it's been limited to the "big four" Original Founding chapters - Ultras, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves - plus a few more like Raven Guard and Deathwatch.

 

That said, it would be peak GW if they released Traitor and Loyalist plastic upgrade kits so you had to buy $100 plus worth of sprues just to get one or two upgrade sets. I'm going to drop talking about this idea before they see it and run with it...

Every loyalist legion in 40k has an upgrade sprue

That doesn’t undermine my point, which is that producing 18 plastic upgrade kits - not just 9 - for a specific range has various challenges. In particular, does GW see potential revenue that can offset the costs of creating an entire plastic line of 18 30k upgrade sprues and generate a profit? That’s the question and I’m not sure it would unless the new plastic Power Armor range expanded the player base to 40k levels. Folks who have a better handling on manufacturing and distribution costs in the hobby can correct me, especially when comparing sculpting, manufacturing, and distributing plastic upgrades versus resin ones.

 

One alternative would be taking the page from 40k and issuing plastic upgrades for more renown Legions as part of this new launch. It could irritate players who play other Legions but this move could reinforce interest in the new plastic range and game while addressing the issues above. And if the 40k Loyalists could use some of these sprues, that would help make this smaller range expand its appeal beyond 30k players. So that's the way forward here if GW and FW wanted follow Necromunda's foray into plastic upgrades.

ut

On another issue, has anyone done a chronological timeline of when the Legion-specific models and characters were released? That would probably give us a sense of which models need updating, especially compared to the newer resin and plastic releases.

I wasn’t trying to undermine your point... I was just mentioning that there are 10 upgrade sprues(11 if you count the BT one) out there now, not just a couple.

No, I totally get your point. It's 12 if you included Deathwatch, so it's a sizable number of plastic upgrade sprues for 40k Space Marines. You could include the other upgrade sprues that exist or coming out for other 40k factions into the overall 40k upgrade sprue line, so the number is closer to the magic number of 18. I think MegaVolt made a good point about not asking enough from GW, so maybe this is one area where we could ask for more investment from GW and not simply FW.

Ope I actually included DW in my 11, is there a twelfth I’ve missed??

No, I wasn’t sure if you included DW. That’s on me, apologies!

[Sarvis]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Given we recently saw the Necromunda range get resin upgrades ported over to new plastic frames, I'd love to see each legion get a plastic upgrade sprue in a similar vein, maybe akin to the 40k chapter ones but with torsos as well and some of the Legion-specific options? just wish-listing of course

Possibly, but Necromunda has fewer factions than the 18 Legions in 30k. And when you look at how they've handled plastic upgrades for Space Marines, it's been limited to the "big four" Original Founding chapters - Ultras, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves - plus a few more like Raven Guard and Deathwatch.

 

That said, it would be peak GW if they released Traitor and Loyalist plastic upgrade kits so you had to buy $100 plus worth of sprues just to get one or two upgrade sets. I'm going to drop talking about this idea before they see it and run with it...

Every loyalist legion in 40k has an upgrade sprue

That doesn’t undermine my point, which is that producing 18 plastic upgrade kits - not just 9 - for a specific range has various challenges. In particular, does GW see potential revenue that can offset the costs of creating an entire plastic line of 18 30k upgrade sprues and generate a profit? That’s the question and I’m not sure it would unless the new plastic Power Armor range expanded the player base to 40k levels. Folks who have a better handling on manufacturing and distribution costs in the hobby can correct me, especially when comparing sculpting, manufacturing, and distributing plastic upgrades versus resin ones.

 

One alternative would be taking the page from 40k and issuing plastic upgrades for more renown Legions as part of this new launch. It could irritate players who play other Legions but this move could reinforce interest in the new plastic range and game while addressing the issues above. And if the 40k Loyalists could use some of these sprues, that would help make this smaller range expand its appeal beyond 30k players. So that's the way forward here if GW and FW wanted follow Necromunda's foray into plastic upgrades.

ut

On another issue, has anyone done a chronological timeline of when the Legion-specific models and characters were released? That would probably give us a sense of which models need updating, especially compared to the newer resin and plastic releases.

I wasn’t trying to undermine your point... I was just mentioning that there are 10 upgrade sprues(11 if you count the BT one) out there now, not just a couple.

No, I totally get your point. It's 12 if you included Deathwatch, so it's a sizable number of plastic upgrade sprues for 40k Space Marines. You could include the other upgrade sprues that exist or coming out for other 40k factions into the overall 40k upgrade sprue line, so the number is closer to the magic number of 18. I think MegaVolt made a good point about not asking enough from GW, so maybe this is one area where we could ask for more investment from GW and not simply FW.

Ope I actually included DW in my 11, is there a twelfth I’ve missed??

No, I wasn’t sure if you included DW. That’s on me, apologies!

I mean flesh tearers have a shoulder pad upgrade, can that be counted? Regardless, I agree with your point. The idea of them making new upgrade sprues for all 18 legions seems low at best. But surely some of the existing resin and plastic ones could work, depending on the legion / armor mark one wants. Though I realize that isn’t nearly the same as a new one matching the mark they decide to use for the new expansion