State of the Union (Heresy)

[MARK0SIAN]

i think theres some animosity that HH players "lost" alot of kits and we got kits like the necromunda squat chef etc

Yeah this! I can only echo the complaints from others that other game systems get a lot of new releases and support compared to heresy but at least they’re genuine models/units.

 

It’s when I see things like that chef, or the gatekeeper from bree or the Christmas grot that it aggravates me the most. They’ve clearly got sculptors and resources they can devote to these very ancillary or even joke characters but won’t direct those resources towards 30k. It really irks that we got such a central character as Maloghurst after Bree got its gatekeeper :(

[Ficinus]

On the issue of units not having models released, this is sort of a double edged sword. On the one hand, it's bad that units and characters have rules but no models. On the other hand, do we want to see Heresy going the way of 40k and AoS where only what's in the kits can be played? Now those are two extremes, but I prefer 30k's end of things compared to the increasingly monopose, no option system of 40k, which is something I'm afraid 30k might turn into if GW/FW gets its act together and modernizes the system. I mean, can you imagine armies like Militia or Daemons of the Ruinstorm existing in 40k or AoS? Can you imagine what would happen to the game if they decided that the only loadouts for a praetor were the options found on the resin and plastic models they currently sell?

 

Honestly, I kind of like the "benign neglect" of GW. It keeps releases sort of slow so the rules aren't changing every two months, and it allows weird stuff to stay in the game. All I'd really ask for is a Calth-esque box that never goes away.

[LameBeard]

Amen to that. I live in fear of the “no model, no rules” judgement coming to Heresy. Aren’t we lucky we have the freedom to convert our own Hol Beloth (or whomever).

[No Foes Remain]

 

i think theres some animosity that HH players "lost" alot of kits and we got kits like the necromunda squat chef etc

Yeah this! I can only echo the complaints from others that other game systems get a lot of new releases and support compared to heresy but at least they’re genuine models/units.

 

It’s when I see things like that chef, or the gatekeeper from bree or the Christmas grot that it aggravates me the most. They’ve clearly got sculptors and resources they can devote to these very ancillary or even joke characters but won’t direct those resources towards 30k. It really irks that we got such a central character as Maloghurst after Bree got its gatekeeper

 

I really dislike the fact that LotR are getting random film characters who were there for 5 seconds or had one line and we're only just getting Mal from book bloody 2. I mean why? What's the bloody point?

 

 

Edit: I will say that I dislike the FW LotR releases of late due to, what I see as, pointless content where FW's main game/system still has units/characters with rules but no models and not that LotR are getting releases.

 

If only GW could blance the releases of all it's systems... To quote Professor Farnsworth "A man can dream, though. A man can dream..."

Edited May 22, 2021 by No Foes Remain

[jaxom]

 

Edit: I will say that I dislike the FW LotR releases of late due to, what I see as, pointless content where FW's main game/system still has units/characters with rules but no models and not that LotR are getting releases.

 

To some that is a perk. Forge World characters as the last bastion of rules existing because they were a cool idea and then let loose into the world for the kitbashers and converters to enjoy. 

[Cris R]

On the issue of units not having models released, this is sort of a double edged sword. On the one hand, it's bad that units and characters have rules but no models. On the other hand, do we want to see Heresy going the way of 40k and AoS where only what's in the kits can be played? Now those are two extremes, but I prefer 30k's end of things compared to the increasingly monopose, no option system of 40k, which is something I'm afraid 30k might turn into if GW/FW gets its act together and modernizes the system. I mean, can you imagine armies like Militia or Daemons of the Ruinstorm existing in 40k or AoS? Can you imagine what would happen to the game if they decided that the only loadouts for a praetor were the options found on the resin and plastic models they currently sell?

 

Honestly, I kind of like the "benign neglect" of GW. It keeps releases sort of slow so the rules aren't changing every two months, and it allows weird stuff to stay in the game. All I'd really ask for is a Calth-esque box that never goes away.

This returns us to the accessibility question. I love me some kit bashing but a player who is completely new to the hobby may find a system like 40k and AoS easier to get into than 30k precisely because they just have to pick up the kits and do minor modifications with them, especially for HQs. That’s likely easier for them than figuring out where to source good third party and legit FW bits*, knowing which ones will assemble well, and working with green stuff to make the conversions work for more complex projects.

 

But Ficinus is right that there is a lot of middle ground between a system with big gaps in the model range and the prescribed 40k/AoS model approach where I think you can attract new hobbyists while keeping the vets around with new kitbashing projects. It’s just finding the right balance, something a starter set could do well if designed correctly (e.g., having far more customizable HQ options than what we saw in Calth). The existing plastic range is getting us there, we just need another push from GW and FW to cross the finish line.

 

* Egghead Miniatures deserves props here. Reasonable prices, good efforts to stock items, and reasonable shipping costs, at least for U.S.-based players like me.

Edited May 22, 2021 by Cris R

[Bung]

 

i think theres some animosity that HH players "lost" alot of kits and we got kits like the necromunda squat chef etc

Yeah this! I can only echo the complaints from others that other game systems get a lot of new releases and support compared to heresy but at least they’re genuine models/units.

 

It’s when I see things like that chef, or the gatekeeper from bree or the Christmas grot that it aggravates me the most. They’ve clearly got sculptors and resources they can devote to these very ancillary or even joke characters but won’t direct those resources towards 30k. It really irks that we got such a central character as Maloghurst after Bree got its gatekeeper

 

 

 

I think those special models are way better than store or event only models.

At least someone not abel to get to an event can get those miniatures and they are not limited to what they can bring to an event for sale.

 

The second point is it hink the sculptors have more freedom with such models which is something when you arfe only doing stuff on plan.

 

I doubt these "joke" charakters need much devotion of ressources, they are one shot designs and then the scukptor going back to work on his normal assignments.

This things could even be a side project from someone or a training exercise.

[No Foes Remain]

 

 

Edit: I will say that I dislike the FW LotR releases of late due to, what I see as, pointless content where FW's main game/system still has units/characters with rules but no models and not that LotR are getting releases.

 

To some that is a perk. Forge World characters as the last bastion of rules existing because they were a cool idea and then let loose into the world for the kitbashers and converters to enjoy. 

 

See the FW Characters I don't mind, like you said it's a good kitbashing/count-as chance, it's the BL Characters and special units thats annoying me. They waste time by getting sculptors to do models for characters in LotR who have one line then die five seconds later rather than the Special Legion Units and 'Black Library' characters.

 

 

Edited for clarity.

Edited May 22, 2021 by No Foes Remain

[Noserenda]

Which Black library model has said one line and died exactly? I men one has said one line and several have died but I don't think there's any crossover there :D

[MARK0SIAN]

 

 

 

i think theres some animosity that HH players "lost" alot of kits and we got kits like the necromunda squat chef etc

Yeah this! I can only echo the complaints from others that other game systems get a lot of new releases and support compared to heresy but at least they’re genuine models/units.

 

It’s when I see things like that chef, or the gatekeeper from bree or the Christmas grot that it aggravates me the most. They’ve clearly got sculptors and resources they can devote to these very ancillary or even joke characters but won’t direct those resources towards 30k. It really irks that we got such a central character as Maloghurst after Bree got its gatekeeper

 

I think those special models are way better than store or event only models.

At least someone not abel to get to an event can get those miniatures and they are not limited to what they can bring to an event for sale.

 

The second point is it hink the sculptors have more freedom with such models which is something when you arfe only doing stuff on plan.

 

I doubt these "joke" charakters need much devotion of ressources, they are one shot designs and then the scukptor going back to work on his normal assignments.

This things could even be a side project from someone or a training exercise.

We know they do give their designers side projects or training projects but The Christmas grot was a full plastic kit, there’s no way they designed that and had the mould made up as a side project. That could’ve been a plastic praetor for 30k.

 

I’m not against them making these other models in principle, it’s just galling to see when you’re own system is getting next to no support yet they’re happy to direct resources at these kind of projects.

 

I guess my displeasure is because it reveals the lack of 30k support is not down to resources but the will of whoever is in charge to direct those resources to 30k.

[No Foes Remain]

Which Black library model has said one line and died exactly? I men one has said one line and several have died but I don't think there's any crossover there

Sorry, I meant LotR characters. Been a long week working an alcohol has had it's influence on me this evening. I shall edit for clarity.

[Hungry Nostraman Lizard]

On the issue of units not having models released, this is sort of a double edged sword. On the one hand, it's bad that units and characters have rules but no models. On the other hand, do we want to see Heresy going the way of 40k and AoS where only what's in the kits can be played? Now those are two extremes, but I prefer 30k's end of things compared to the increasingly monopose, no option system of 40k, which is something I'm afraid 30k might turn into if GW/FW gets its act together and modernizes the system. I mean, can you imagine armies like Militia or Daemons of the Ruinstorm existing in 40k or AoS? Can you imagine what would happen to the game if they decided that the only loadouts for a praetor were the options found on the resin and plastic models they currently sell?

 

Honestly, I kind of like the "benign neglect" of GW. It keeps releases sort of slow so the rules aren't changing every two months, and it allows weird stuff to stay in the game. All I'd really ask for is a Calth-esque box that never goes away.

If you slap a monochrome black and white filter on any -maris army that has seen zero conversion or kitbashing, it will look like any other. Mind you, it's not something uniquely a problem with just the marines, but a lot of "New-Geedubs" period. Stormcast, new Necrons, etc - all suffer from the way they slice up and make kits now. It's a cryin' shame, I think. Yes, the model looks cool the first few times. Yes, it's more dynamic and full of personality. However, the basis of the kit won't have as long as longevity, I think, because the base pose is going to always remain the same. 

 

How many boxes of the old Command Squad have been bought throughout the years? The legs/torso/arm/arm/head design philosophy was truly amazing, because it even offered cross compatibility. 

 

I agree on you. Just give us some form of an introduction, Start Combating! or Collecting Patrol!, or whatever they want to call it.

 

Amen to that. I live in fear of the “no model, no rules” judgement coming to Heresy. Aren’t we lucky we have the freedom to convert our own Hol Beloth (or whomever).

Agreed, I one hundred percent love this about 30k. The amount of cool raw heroes and personalized characters I've seen come forth from this is wonderful. 

 

 

On the issue of units not having models released, this is sort of a double edged sword. On the one hand, it's bad that units and characters have rules but no models. On the other hand, do we want to see Heresy going the way of 40k and AoS where only what's in the kits can be played? Now those are two extremes, but I prefer 30k's end of things compared to the increasingly monopose, no option system of 40k, which is something I'm afraid 30k might turn into if GW/FW gets its act together and modernizes the system. I mean, can you imagine armies like Militia or Daemons of the Ruinstorm existing in 40k or AoS? Can you imagine what would happen to the game if they decided that the only loadouts for a praetor were the options found on the resin and plastic models they currently sell?

 

Honestly, I kind of like the "benign neglect" of GW. It keeps releases sort of slow so the rules aren't changing every two months, and it allows weird stuff to stay in the game. All I'd really ask for is a Calth-esque box that never goes away.

This returns us to the accessibility question. I love me some kit bashing but a player who is completely new to the hobby may find a system like 40k and AoS easier to get into than 30k precisely because they just have to pick up the kits and do minor modifications with them, especially for HQs. That’s likely easier for them than figuring out where to source good third party and legit FW bits*, knowing which ones will assemble well, and working with green stuff to make the conversions work for more complex projects.

 

But Ficinus is right that there is a lot of middle ground between a system with big gaps in the model range and the prescribed 40k/AoS model approach where I think you can attract new hobbyists while keeping the vets around with new kitbashing projects. It’s just finding the right balance, something a starter set could do well if designed correctly (e.g., having far more customizable HQ options than what we saw in Calth). The existing plastic range is getting us there, we just need another push from GW and FW to cross the finish line.

 

* Egghead Miniatures deserves props here. Reasonable prices, good efforts to stock items, and reasonable shipping costs, at least for U.S.-based players like me.

 

Another shout-out to Egghead Miniatures. Awesome folk, doing a fantastic deed. 

[Lucien Eilam]

Could whoever sculpted Bill the Pony have been working on Space Marines and tanks instead? Maybe, but it’s a very different style and skill-set, so I don’t think that necessarily follows. In the past, it was always a separate team that could mimic the Perry twins’ style, with the occasional crossover received very badly (e.g. Elladan and Elrohir).

 

Most of the time, these aren’t even the same “resources” they can direct to one project or another. You can already find plenty of people complaining about the more Citadel-style of the Heresy characters that have been previewed recently, so even within the group of sculptors who are comfortable and happy working on power armour, there’s room for contention.

 

(I think there’s a good chance they’re also contractually obliged to release a certain number of  Middle-earth products to maintain the licence: as a rule, licensors want the rights with companies who are actively doing something to generate a return on them. After 20 years, that barrel has been scraped pretty thoroughly of anything that would be swinging a sword. I don’t think they had a meeting where they decided Bill the Pony was a better bet for their business than plastic Mark VI Marines or whatever.)

 

Blood Bowl and Necromunda have had a glut of releases in the last 3-5 years because they were bootstrapping the range from scratch. Heresy had a run around 2012-15 with at least one new release basically every month for the same reason.

 

(incidentally, I don’t recall many tears being shed while Heresy players were enjoying that run for all the Blood Bowl players soldiering on with ancient metal miniatures from the single worst period in Citadel history, and a rulebook dictated by players of a perpetual league that bears little resemblance to 95% of games that actually hit a table-top. I guess balance and fairness go out the window when they’re releasing things you want.)

 

A mature product range is a completely different proposition. Look at 40k Codex launches - often just 3 new boxes per edition, at least one of which is a replacement. It’s telling that there’s more talk in this topic about redoing old kits in plastic than about wanting anything genuinely new. Pretty much all the low-hanging, guaranteed profitable products are done.

 

And let’s take a moment to recognise what a nightmare of a system it is from that angle. The two main factions are split 19 ways by legion (counting Black Shields), multiplied by 5 for armour marks. Make a 40k Space Marine Captain and their market is every Space Marine player. Make a 30k Space Marine Praetor and the market might just be White Scars players who chose to use Mark IV in their collection. Yo dawg, I heard you like niches.

 

When they released plastic III and IV, those were already the most popular marks by miles, and they could also be confident they’d sell a bunch of them to 40k Marine players who had no interest in playing Age of Darkness.

 

Now most 40k players are only buying bigmarines, and if they announced a plastic Mark VI assault squad tomorrow, half the responses would be “that’s nice, maybe if I ever do Raven Guard… when are you doing it in Mark II/III/IV/V to match the rest of my army?” and a bunch of the rest would be “that’s nice… I converted mine from the FW resins years ago, but if I ever need any more…” While potential new players would walk into stores and see those plain Mark VI kits a shelf down from bigger, flashier Primaris kits.

 

You can dismiss the LotR stuff as niche and “joke” products, but Heresy isn’t exactly brimming with a ton of surefire opportunities for success either. It’s frustrating for sure, but there are good reasons for a lot of it.

Edited May 22, 2021 by Lucien Eilam

[SkimaskMohawk]

Ah yes, the miniature designers aren't able to translate their sculpting skills from humanoids and ponies to armoured humanoids. In cad. Where there's already base models to work off of.

 

And I didn't know old blood bowl and necromunda were referred to as a core game along 40k and AOS in investor reports. Oh wait, they were literally unsupported for years. Almost like it's completely two different circumstances.

 

 

A lot of bad comparisons; even "mature" ranges like marines and necrons got a ton of releases with 9th of the 6 factions up for release (marines, necrons, death guard, dark eldar, mechanicus and sisters) 3 of those had huge content releases. You can make models for whatever you want.

[Joe]

I highly suspect it's more a case of designer x working on miniature y in his free time, and pit manager z thinking it's pretty cool and slotting it into the release slate. We know this is a thing already as it's happened to the Heresy twice in recent memory.

[WrathOfTheLion]

I think that is fairly likely. I'm sympathetic to them doing that, I've had similar freedom to do such things as a programmer in the 3D software field, and it is something worth allowing them to do as it can be a quite rewarding freedom. However, from the customer side, you need to balance that with completing the things they are looking for, going off on tangents for too long is obviously unsatisfying, which is the territory FW has been in for some months now. A glut of releases of random Necromunda, LotR and BB characters is going to annoy a lot of your customer base, especially when many of them were, at the time, waiting for releases announced many months before like the Word Bearers Praetors.

Edited May 23, 2021 by WrathOfTheLion

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

so the font for that new preview next saturday....

 

edit: apparently the AoS 3 timer ends on saturday so there's no way it's not that unfortunately

 

Edited May 23, 2021 by Iron Hands Fanatic

[Aias]

Me, to GW:

 

[Marshal Vespasian]

Man my first thought was thats the heresy font and colours! As well.

Unending dominion does nit sound very heresy esque though.

[Hungry Nostraman Lizard]

The question that begs to be asked, why would they so clearly use a font that is associated with Age of Darkness? From novels and book covers across the Horus Heresy series, the Primarch book series, the OOP BoP and BaC boxes, the Red rule books, the Black Campaign books... 

Did they run out of fonts? And if it's not the exact same font, it sure as hell looks similar.

[Marshal Vespasian]

Plottwist:

 

Its the edition where we find out that aos is a city in the human webway, accessible through magnus folly

Edited May 24, 2021 by Marshal Vespasian

[No Foes Remain]

Yeah, it's a very odd choice for GW since AoS has it's own colours and font which they've used before. Rub our noses in it, GW, why don't you!

[Pacific81]

Plottwist:

 

Its the edition where we find out that aos is a city in the human webway, accessible through magnus folly

 

Why not? That makes about as much sense (if not more) than the official background material.

 

My Warcry warband features reincarnated souls of 'Hacksaw' Jim Duggan and Grace Jones as well an actual Chaos Space Marine, who has decided to go and scrap in the 8-points (using an armoured ogre miniature). Yes, this is nonsense, but it makes more sense than lizardmen living inside their own dreams as far as I'm concerned :D

[No Foes Remain]

Seems AoS 3rd are using really similar font and background styling to HH in announcements so far. I really wonder why that is, maybe this HH 2.0 will be using a different style (since it seems like it should have been out before AoS 3 but covid messed things up) and AoS nabbed the old style?

[Joe]

Beyond the font and the colour scheme being quite close to one another I doubt there's anything more to it - it's worth noting that Legion Dispatch hasn't changed formatting, although that may be as it's yet to come.