Predicting Primaris (Again): Will the generic range be "complete" in 10th Edition?

[UnkyHamHam]

2 minutes ago, phandaal said:

 

As stated before, I probably own more [Primaris] than most because I like all of the sets. More [Primaris] would be great. It just is not [Firstborn Marines], and it would be nice if people would stop casually suggesting that [Space Marine] players should lose iconic units with decades of enduring appeal.

There are a ton of other places GW can go with new Space Marines models.

Hate to be that guy and open old wounds, but I altered your comment to supply a more general statement, that I think needs said.  Not trying to start a fight, but you actually worded it really well in my opinion. Just in the context of DA and Terminators. I apologize ahead of time! 

[Gederas]

25 minutes ago, UnkyHamHam said:

Hate to be that guy and open old wounds, but I altered your comment to supply a more general statement, that I think needs said.  Not trying to start a fight, but you actually worded it really well in my opinion. Just in the context of DA and Terminators. I apologize ahead of time! 

Except phandaal was specifically referring to Dark Angels.

Everything we have for Dark Angels has shown "GRAVIS IS NOT DEATHWING, STOP TRYING TO SAY IT IS GOING TO BE DEATHWING TERMINATOR REPLACEMENTS". The ONLY things Primaris that can be Deathwing are... Bladeguard Veterans, Bladeguard Captain and LT, the Redemptor and Repulsor

 

I mean... Even the short story that had the first Primaris Marine's induction into the Deathwing was a Greyshield Intercessor no less!

[UnkyHamHam]

1 minute ago, Gederas said:

Except phandaal was specifically referring to Dark Angels.

Everything we have for Dark Angels has shown "GRAVIS IS NOT DEATHWING, STOP TRYING TO SAY IT IS GOING TO BE DEATHWING TERMINATOR REPLACEMENTS". The ONLY things Primaris that can be Deathwing are... Bladeguard Veterans, Bladeguard Captain and LT, the Redemptor and Repulsor

 

I mean... Even the short story that had the first Primaris Marine's induction into the Deathwing was a Greyshield Intercessor no less!

I'm aware of the his original context with Dark Angels and Terminators, as I mentioned above. I will leave it at that. As I said, I'm not trying to start a fight, but I will defend myself as not being incompetent to have missed the original intended context. 

[Blindhamster]

19 minutes ago, Gederas said:

Except phandaal was specifically referring to Dark Angels.

Everything we have for Dark Angels has shown "GRAVIS IS NOT DEATHWING, STOP TRYING TO SAY IT IS GOING TO BE DEATHWING TERMINATOR REPLACEMENTS". The ONLY things Primaris that can be Deathwing are... Bladeguard Veterans, Bladeguard Captain and LT, the Redemptor and Repulsor

 

I mean... Even the short story that had the first Primaris Marine's induction into the Deathwing was a Greyshield Intercessor no less!

This is such a weird statement. I don’t think people are saying aggressors or any existing gravis equipped units should be deathwing. 
 

but there’s really 100% no reason they couldn’t make a gravis deathwing unit. Just like bladeguard (in a variant of tacticus - same as intercessors) are able to be deathwing but aren’t deathwing terminators.
 

Don’t think deathwing terminators need to go anywhere, but also doesn’t meant they can’t /also/ make a deathwing gravis unit, abs deathwing terminators themselves don’t necessarily need a model update (though if a new terminator kit comes out, I’m sure they will too).

[phandaal]

6 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

but there’s really 100% no reason they couldn’t make a gravis deathwing unit. Just like bladeguard (in a variant of tacticus - same as intercessors) are able to be deathwing but aren’t deathwing terminators.

Certainly they could, no one is holding a gun to the designers' heads and forcing them not to stick hoods and swords on Gravis and tell us it is Deathwing. Does not mean they should though.

The Deathwing are the First Company, and the entire First Company wears Terminator armor.

Unforgiven can also be in the Inner Circle without being Deathwing.

Bladeguard have the Deathwing keyword for rules purposes, but really they would be Inner Circle. Those at least make more sense from their knightly design.

There are so many other places to go without butting in to the Deathwing. Firewing, Ironwing, upscaled Ravenwing Black Knights.

[Blindhamster]

Last I checked, deathwing is 1st company. Bladeguard are 1st company, /not/ company vets. There’s no reason a more knightly gravis variant couldn’t also be made specifically for a dark angel unit of deathwing gravis. 

the notion that deathwing are all terminators is already patently incorrect as bladeguard already caused that to cease to be the case. 
 

I just think we currently have no real idea how or what they will do with any of the chapter specific units that become primaris - if anything. Of course, we can look at black Templar’s which seemed to be a pretty copy paste job and that would suggest there will only be a true DA primaris deathwing unit if they do primaris terminators in some way, I think there is 0 chance of them getting such a unit before a core one, so we probably just have to keep an eye on the rumours that were bouncing around :)

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

2 hours ago, UnkyHamHam said:

Came back to also remind everyone about Omnis patten armor. 

It's easy to forget and write off Suppressors as a one off.

You might want to check the point about "Oppressors." I didn't forget Omnis OR Suppressors in the OP.

[UnkyHamHam]

1 hour ago, Lord Nord said:

You might want to check the point about "Oppressors." I didn't forget Omnis OR Suppressors in the OP.

Yeah my apologies. I was mostly replying to Orange Knight.  

[Marshal Reinhard]

The discussion on wether or not Gravis armor is the Primaris Terminator replacement has been had a million times.

Obviously it was originally intended to be it when it was first designed. Too many shared design elements (that hood especially) to try and deny it. But it's equally possible this changed and was no longer the case around the time Heavy intercessors (who pretty much lost said hood, though it could be implied its retractable behind the head) rolled out, or even earlier than that, given the armor while conferring increased toughness has never given 2+ save.

We don't really know what GW's current intent is, aside from (fairly dubious?) rumors of Primaris Terminators coming, that's been heard many times now, and wa even recently rumored to be Gravis marines with terminator style weapons.

I think if they do go down that route, the Gravis terminators might have a few additional plates, the same way standard Tacticus and "Crusade armor" differ slightly, though the latter doesn't seem to have an official designation (Jes Goodwin called 'em crusade pattern or at least crusade armor in some interviews though). Lorewise it could perhaps still be based on terminator armor, rather than being upgraded power armor, that's been refitted to work with primaris marines and such. They did something similiar already with Calgar's old suit that was refitted into becoming his new Primaris persona's new suit of armor. And while obviously Gravis in looks, it does sport some minor visual differences from your average suit of Gravis. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

If GW wants to take an Inceptor and:

give it 2+ save

invulnerable save

power weapons

Heck I’d probably use them but that doesn’t make it a terminator and really this model disproves Gravis armor was ever intended to replace terminator armor.

[Blindhamster]

for what its worth, my point was that Gravis doesn't need to be a terminator replacement to be valid for deathwing, because deathwing isn't just terminators anymore, like it or not (and /technically/ wasn't originally either).

Personally I'm in the crowd that doesn't think Gravis will be the terminator replacement (but also think it was /probably/ intended as such originally), but I'm also not entirely sure there actually will even BE a primaris terminator replacement in that I don't necessarily think we will for sure see a unit with terminator in the name.

I just think there's not a reason they can't make a gravis unit for deathwing if they want, it still fits thematically (heavier armour - just like the armour worn by bladeguard is heavier). And can fit aesthetically if they do a more veteran style version of the suit. They don't need to call it terminator armour, they can call the unit whatever they like, if they officially have the deathwing rules, they're deathwing, just like bladeguard.

 

Anyhoo, stuff to come.
 

• I think it's probably true we'll see another omnis unit, and likely a mpk version of suppressors eventually.
• We already "know" there's the missile unit and a heavier melee dread coming.
• Rumours suggest a jump melee unit, it could be omnis, personally I hope whatever comes is along the lines of the SM2 titus we have seen which is definitely /not/ omnis.
• Outside of that, probably just characters for some of the armour types.

If we look at heresy, yeah I could see a breacher style squad with shields and guns to come because primaris do seem to follow the heresy approach more than most.

My highest wishlist item remains a "proper" veteran intercessor kit, expanding them into something more interesting and versatile.

 

p.s. I think we'll see at least one of the other "big" chapters get a refresh in 10th, probably 2.

Edited July 24, 2022 by Blindhamster

[Marshal Reinhard]

Quote

 

If GW wants to take an Inceptor and:

give it 2+ save

invulnerable save

power weapons

Heck I’d probably use them but that doesn’t make it a terminator and really this model disproves Gravis armor was ever intended to replace terminator armor.

 

No, it doesn't really.

Being a terminator replacement and having expanded roles are not mutually exclusive concepts.

 

Note that I'm not convinced Gravis is STILL intended to be a Terminator replacement, the existence of the inceptor doesn't disprove it ever was. Nothing of the sort

Edited July 24, 2022 by Reinhard

[Lemondish]

8 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

Some bonus Chapter Specific units GW could make in the future that would add lots of flavour to all chapters:

Bonus bonus chapter specific unit: Primaris Deathwatch Veterans with SIA supported Primaris weaponry. We're nearly at a point where Primaris Deathwatch are bringing enough to make a whole army viable, but the lack of flavour with the key Deathwatch rules like SIA really sucks. The lack of melee options for Kill Teams being the other piece holding everything back. 

[UnkyHamHam]

47 minutes ago, Lemondish said:

Bonus bonus chapter specific unit: Primaris Deathwatch Veterans with SIA supported Primaris weaponry. We're nearly at a point where Primaris Deathwatch are bringing enough to make a whole army viable, but the lack of flavour with the key Deathwatch rules like SIA really sucks. The lack of melee options for Kill Teams being the other piece holding everything back. 

Kind of an interesting piece of contradiction. Deathwatch's traditional style, of ultra ragtag uniqueness and individual marine choice of gear, REALLY clashes with the design and doctrine of Primaris. That being carbon copy cut and paste units with laser focused battlefield roles. 

They have so far circumvented this by just letting you mix and match from different units along armor patterns, instead of actually creating a unique veteran primaris unit that actually has access to wargear. 

I wonder if they will actually try to make an actual Primaris Deathwatch killteam, along the lines of the FB DW Vets. Or will they just keep dancing around the fact that they are shooting themselves in the foot trying to apply Legion style doctrine to Killteams? 

Edited July 24, 2022 by UnkyHamHam

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

"Being a terminator replacement and having expanded roles are not mutually exclusive concepts."
 

That’s a big push and I can’t think of any counter examples.

[Marshal Mittens]

I think we need bike Captain and LT, Jump Cpt, LT, Chaps, Missile Launcher Squad, Scouts (other than BT scouts), proper veterans, Melee Jump troops, terminator/heavy melee infantry. 

[Helias_Tancred]

Two truths.

 

1. They have a lot left to release in the primaris space marine line.

 

2. They will slow walk it all the very best they can, in typical GW fashion.  

 

Edited July 25, 2022 by Helias Tancred

[Lemondish]

On 7/24/2022 at 4:23 PM, UnkyHamHam said:

Kind of an interesting piece of contradiction. Deathwatch's traditional style, of ultra ragtag uniqueness and individual marine choice of gear, REALLY clashes with the design and doctrine of Primaris. That being carbon copy cut and paste units with laser focused battlefield roles.

Absolutely true, though I feel like we did see an incremental change in that approach with the new Black Templar units. Both the Primaris Crusader Squad and the Sword Brethren have many more options for a mixed unit as far as wargear goes than perhaps any other Primaris unit up till now, even if the rules for equipping them are significantly more complex than they need to be. We also have seen two new Primaris combi-weapons, which while tied to HQ Characters now, isn't as important as knowing that they exist.

So whether it's a factor of Veterans gaining more leeway within Primaris ranks, or simply because this is a chapter locked unit, the draconic wargear rules for Primaris do appear to be changing. Whether that continues and they'll eventually become more like the Veteran options of the firstborn, like Vanguard and Sternguard, or whether we'll take a step back and rehash Bladeguard Veterans again, I do not know. 

All I know is that a Primaris Veteran unit with a shooting focus, one with an aggressive melee focus and mobility, combined with the already released Bladeguard would go a long way to filling in that Primaris Deathwatch Veteran wish. It's no surprise, of course - because it would also go a long way to replacing the first born entirely lol

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

35 minutes ago, Lemondish said:

Absolutely true, though I feel like we did see an incremental change in that approach with the new Black Templar units. Both the Primaris Crusader Squad and the Sword Brethren have many more options for a mixed unit as far as wargear goes than perhaps any other Primaris unit up till now, even if the rules for equipping them are significantly more complex than they need to be. We also have seen two new Primaris combi-weapons, which while tied to HQ Characters now, isn't as important as knowing that they exist.

So whether it's a factor of Veterans gaining more leeway within Primaris ranks, or simply because this is a chapter locked unit, the draconic wargear rules for Primaris do appear to be changing. Whether that continues and they'll eventually become more like the Veteran options of the firstborn, like Vanguard and Sternguard, or whether we'll take a step back and rehash Bladeguard Veterans again, I do not know. 

All I know is that a Primaris Veteran unit with a shooting focus, one with an aggressive melee focus and mobility, combined with the already released Bladeguard would go a long way to filling in that Primaris Deathwatch Veteran wish. It's no surprise, of course - because it would also go a long way to replacing the first born entirely lol

I believe the firstborn are essentially a dead line, and I’m not 100% excited about that, but if it’s going to happen, I just want it to happen sooner rather than later.

[Lemondish]

1 hour ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

I believe the firstborn are essentially a dead line, and I’m not 100% excited about that, but if it’s going to happen, I just want it to happen sooner rather than later.

Very likely true, though the direction they're trying to push Marines with Primaris is one the Firstborn do not emulate exactly. But then again, there aren't exactly hard and fast rules for unit design in that realm anyway, so who knows.

I do feel like, especially with Horus Heresy being a thing, there's room to keep Firstborn in 40k even if the model line never extends far again. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

53 minutes ago, Lemondish said:

Very likely true, though the direction they're trying to push Marines with Primaris is one the Firstborn do not emulate exactly. But then again, there aren't exactly hard and fast rules for unit design in that realm anyway, so who knows.

I do feel like, especially with Horus Heresy being a thing, there's room to keep Firstborn in 40k even if the model line never extends far again. 

Yeah idk.

 

I just got some VVs and have only gotten to use my stormraven once, so it would be nice to keep firstborn around, but I just don’t see it. They’re not the feature in army photos, they don’t get featured very well in game support, etc.

[Lemondish]

26 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

I just got some VVs and have only gotten to use my stormraven once, so it would be nice to keep firstborn around, but I just don’t see it. They’re not the feature in army photos, they don’t get featured very well in game support, etc.

I suppose the good news is that ruleswise they're still such a strong part of the army, so much so that they end up highly represented in the competitive meta. We've all been expecting the retiring of first born for 5 years now and it honestly doesn't look any closer to coming to fruition than it did back when Primaris Marines launched in 2017, at least to me. 

And I don't think it'll happen until we see Primaris units that can do the same type of heavy lifting that the most competitive Firstborn units can. Then again, it really depends on the current meta as there was a time not so long ago when Primaris units were the core of every competitive list, so who's to say when things will change. In either case, I hope you enjoy your VV and Stormraven - they're fun units imo

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

PCS might seem like a veteran unit but truly it’s just a Primaris twist on the existing Crusader squad. The only vet is the SB .

[Captain Idaho]

Speaking of Veterans, it seems logical we'll see some sort of Command Squad or bodyguards beyond Ultramarines specific units.

[Blindhamster]

Yeah I would expect some kind of “company veterans” unit. We already have most elements of the classic command squad now:

- ancient

- apothecary

- champion (though I think we will get a non exclusive version at some point)