Upcoming BL Stuff - 2023

[b1soul]

I accept that the sum of Thorpe's RG work might work better than any part...I just couldn't finish Deliverance Lost. I also tried one of his Corax novellas (forgot which one) and I just couldn't slog through his prose. It's like I have a personal allergy to his style of writing.

 

Heard good things about Thorpe as a friendly person and great loremaster. He's actually one of the bolder ones when it comes to expanding the setting or moving it forward? For example, he gives Warp time travel a good tackle with his later DA stuff and Ashes of Prospero...but his strong ideas but bland style indicate to me that Codex fluff and blurbs should be his forte.

 

Abnett has always been exceptional imo, but since the likes of ADB, Wraight, French and I'm gonna add Brooks (his Alpharius was amazing) also joined BL, some of the older workhorse BL authours have really been left behind. I go back and (try to) read stuff by Thorpe, Kyme, Swallow, and Counter...and it's just not as well written compared to the best or even more average of what BL has to offer nowadays. 

 

To me, the modern benchmark for BL middle-of-the-pack is Guy Haley. He's the epitome of a fast writer who shines every now and then but is typically solid and rarely unreadable imo. My personal opinion, and I hope Thorpe continues to contribute to the 40K metaplot (but less in novel format if I had my way)

[cheywood]

6 minutes ago, Grenzer said:

I actually really liked the Gav Thorpe Dark Angels books. The Legacy of Caliban trilogy was enjoyable even after a re-read, and I thought Luther was fantastic. I cant say they were great literary works but Im not sure if anything from Black Library is. Im a simple reader and I enjoyed them for what they were. I can understand folks not liking them, but the amount of hating on Gav Thorpe's DA books has always had the same meme-energy as "The Dark Angels are a traitor chapter! hurr hurr"

 

Anyways, I think Ill be picking up the omnibus, and looking forward to Son of the Forest. Right now Im wondering how much it will tie in to The Lion AoO book, and if it would be worthit (doubt).

The Warcom preview said Son of the Forest leads in to the Arks of Omen book. Though they have a track record of being wrong. 

[Emperor Ming]

and angron vs the lion is going to be very anticlimactic unless the lion has some way of getting around angrons current banishment 'rules'

 

Cos its kind of meaningless if he just cuts him down in a duel atm

Edited April 11, 2023 by Emperor Ming

[b1soul]

My prediction, old man Lion fights valiantly against the Daemonic embodiment of close combat that is Angry Ron, he puts up a good fight but is ultimately on the verge of being overwhelmed when the Unforgiven somehow distract Angry Ron, resulting in an opening Grandpa Dark Angel exploits. Angron kinda jobs...yet again.

[System Sound]

13 hours ago, DarkChaplain said:

I genuinely enjoy most of what Thorpe has put out. Damn, I love his Sundering trilogy for Time of Legends... And while his Dark Angels: Legacy of Caliban trilogy has plenty of flaws, it was still an enjoyable ride (literally, considering it kicks off with the Ravenwing). I'll also fight people over the merits of his Raven Guard Heresy novels - I went for a re-read of the entire arc 5ish years ago and it's been much better than I'd remembered it (especially after all the bashing it received); the foreshadowing throughout Deliverance Lost was actually rather clever, in my experience.

Thorpes HH books about RG, made me like them. Just like Legion made me like AL and Thousand Son's, well for TS.

 

While I havent read his DA novels, his Ynari stuff was quite interesting and it's a horrible shame that we will never see the 3 part...

 

I understand that his prose might not be for everyone, but judging his newer stuff, by the trilogy he wrote oh so long ago is a bit daft... Same goes for Khyme... (Looking at you r/40klore).

Edited April 11, 2023 by System Sound

[b1soul]

General consensus seems to be that Thorpe wrote his magnum opus back in the early 2000s with Angels of Darkness. Everything after that has been very polarising.

[phandaal]

Gav Thorpe's handling of Warp time travel with the Dark Angels is God awful. May be one of the worst twists that had the misfortune to be included in canon. It is the kind of neat little story pretzel that would barely pass muster in a Saturday morning cartoon show.

 

Although I have come to accept that my opinion of Gav's writing is apparently in the minority.

[Scribe]

I still think Luther was decent.

[grailkeeper]

22 hours ago, Emperor Ming said:

and angron vs the lion is going to be very anticlimactic unless the lion has some way of getting around angrons current banishment 'rules'

 

Cos its kind of meaningless if he just cuts him down in a duel atm

They sit down and debate the ideas out. It's entirely a clash of the minds dealing with vastly different ideologies.

 

Thr Lion loses.

[Sothalor]

Perhaps the Lion lures Angron into whatever warp-forest "mist-wreathed shadow realms" he's been using to bop around the galaxy as a way to limit or hinder Angron's ability to affect realspace.

 

Of course, that means his personal highway has now got an angry immortal daemon primarch squatting in it, which makes travel rather inconvenient. So now he's got no choice but to call up Guilliman and be like "Hey brother, I'm back. Need a ride," thus revealing himself to the Imperium at large.

 

And Angron cuts down enough shadow-trees every so often to pop back into material reality and cause havoc or something, like a reverse-Draigo.

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

In my opinion, best case is Angron wrecks him. There's a fight, Angron kills him, but he comes walking back out of the imaginary tree land because it turns out he isn't awake, and this is a dream of him projecting out. Or else he's become a Saint and Big E can keep bringing him back to life.

 

I really don't want Angron to take the L here. He's building up so much momentum, let a badguy actually be a badguy for a while.

[Scribe]

20 minutes ago, Marshal Valkenhayn said:

In my opinion, best case is Angron wrecks him. There's a fight, Angron kills him, but he comes walking back out of the imaginary tree land because it turns out he isn't awake, and this is a dream of him projecting out. Or else he's become a Saint and Big E can keep bringing him back to life.

 

I really don't want Angron to take the L here. He's building up so much momentum, let a badguy actually be a badguy for a while.

 

Chaos doesnt get nice things. Angron will take a dive. Sad fate.

[wecanhaveallthree]

Angron was great in The Red Angel. Everyone was great in that one, though. 

 

What a stellar book. I'm surprised I haven't seen more people talking about it. Felt like the 'new' CSM franchise starter, ala Night Lords.

[b1soul]

16 hours ago, phandaal said:

Although I have come to accept that my opinion of Gav's writing is apparently in the minority.

 

Think it's 50/50

 

People who don't enjoy his writing aren't an overwhelming majority but they're not a tiny minority.

[Tolmeus]

6 hours ago, wecanhaveallthree said:

Angron was great in The Red Angel. Everyone was great in that one, though. 

 

A bit off-topic, since there exists a singular thread for 'Angron - The Red Angel', but I was partially surprised and disappointed. I agree, that overall, the characters got depth and felt consistent in their decisions. Especially the Grey Knights were my favourites. Yet, Angron himself hasn't got the spotlight he deserves as title character, at least in my opinion. 

[wecanhaveallthree]

2 hours ago, Tolmeus said:

 

A bit off-topic, since there exists a singular thread for 'Angron - The Red Angel', but I was partially surprised and disappointed. I agree, that overall, the characters got depth and felt consistent in their decisions. Especially the Grey Knights were my favourites. Yet, Angron himself hasn't got the spotlight he deserves as title character, at least in my opinion. 

 

In the context of discussing Angron and his match-up with the Lion (and how he'll do and where he'll go in the future), I think it'll be alright. I like Angron as 'elemental force of nature' much more, and I thought the book did a wonderful job of showing that he's wholly lost at this stage. He's a runaway train. There's nothing left of him post-Echoes, and the way the World Eaters (and their aspirants) variously come to terms (or don't!) with that is such a powerful backbone to a story. They love him, they hate him, they want to be him - it's a solid continuation of the themes from the Heresy without actually calling back to the Heresy except when absolutely needed.

 

It's why I don't want him 'paired' with anyone. His current mechanic of just getting back up makes him a wonderful threat to be able to turn up essentially wherever, whenever, but he has very definite weaknesses to be exposed: psykers, tactics, anybody with a semi-functional brain... watching him get actually tar-pitted in Red Angel was hilarious. He's great. Let him do his thing.

[Ubiquitous1984]

At this stage Angron exists purely to put over other factions and their heroes.  He’s a one-dimensional Demi-god of war.  His character potential is basically zero.  He’s a big bad guy who can respawn after every death.  If he doesn’t do the job to the returning Lion then I’d be very surprised.  

[b1soul]

The best case for Angry Ron is maybe...he dominates Grandpa Dark Angel, who is only able to hold off the Big Red without really doing much damage. This goes on for a while, with Tywin of the Forest struggling hard, before he gets saved by the Fallen, who sacrifice many of their number to push back The Angry One. Geriatric Lion makes his escape after all this delaying action, which somehow results in a stalemate for everyone and no one's feelings get too hurt.

 

I just can't see GW giving Angron a clear win over the Lion, even a non-lethal one. They want the Lion to come back with a triumphant bang, not with a loss to Angry Ron.

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

It baffles me how often any sort of IP with an ensemble cast will take every shortcut and exploit every trick to setup a strongman archetype, then immediately turn around and squander it over and over until it's meaningless.

 

Marvel comics did this to the Thing, who went from being a respectable brick to a punching bag.

It's constantly a thing in professional wrestling.

 

I just don't get it. You have to treat your monsters with care otherwise they lose all value. It's the Abadon issue. At this point who even cares if he launches another Black Crusade. They're just code for 'show up so you can punch us in the face and chase us back into the warp.' Witnessing it happening to Angron and Vashtorr in real time is a damn shame.

[wecanhaveallthree]

Angron's not a monster, though. Well, he is, but he's a wrecked, broken monster who has been entirely subsumed into his patron. There is no Angron in the sense of a coherent personality or character or motivation beyond 'kill, maim, burn'. He's utterly wretched. He's been beaten down over and over and 'coming back to his horrible life to kill people until he's killed again' works perfectly for what he is now. His agony is constant. His rage is impotent. There is nothing he can do to escape his situation, and he lacks even the basic awareness of it, any more.

 

Angron is tragic, but the tragedy has passed. He's pitiable, but the time for pity is over. He's not a Daemon Primarch, with the faculty and self-delusion and involvement in the Great Game this implies, but an oversized Chaos Spawn. 

[b1soul]

Don't think Angron is more berserk than some of the Bloodthirster characters we have...or, say, Khârn in the 41st millennium.

 

Wouldn't really call Angron a Chaos Spawn...he's just very Khornate in the typical bestial, raging way: kinda what you'd expect of a top-tier Khornate champion.

Edited April 13, 2023 by b1soul

[OpossumStrong]

Lion is up for preorder, and the website is dying

[Von Großschmitt]

GW's website seems down? So much for catching Brook's Lion novel...

[OpossumStrong]

I got it, not a big of a struggle compare to SoT, but its unbelievable how even such "small" release is dropping the website. 

For 3 minutes i had to look at this, and after another minute for the website to realize i did press confirm order. 

 

[aa.logan]

Not *that* fussed about getting this LE, but it is infuriating that website issues once again are messing things up; added to my basket at 9.55 but unable to checkout yet.