Upcoming BL Stuff - 2023

[Urauloth]

I keep forgetting to post in the Crime thread. King of the Spoil is indeed very good.
 

11 hours ago, wecanhaveallthree said:

Crime is a cool concept and the stories have been of good quality, but they step hard on each-other's toes a lot when it comes to setting and theme.

I think you mean the WH Crime releases tread on each other's toes here (which I haven't found they do personally, I've found them all varied enough to want more) but I think there's another problem: Crime and Horror ended up getting in each other's personal space quite a lot, to the detriment of the WH Horror imprint.
They both hinge on digging into the murky underbelly of Warhammer, where it's all hard lives, bad deals and murderers, but the Crime novels have the strength of a shared sub-setting to link their worldbuilding instead of being scattered around the WH40k galaxy and the realms of AoS. On top of that, Grim Repast is a better example of horror in Warhammer than some of the actual Horror imprint releases.

Horror got hurt by a couple of other factors as well: Reynolds leaving (his Dark Harvest was one of the best releases in that whole line, not that it got any advertising) and the gamble of tying all the AoS stories together via the Mhurghast plotline, which shackled them to Briardark, which I don't think anybody liked.

 

I also think it suffered from sticking a little too close to the campfire of the tabletop game instead of wandering out into the dark reaches of the lore (which some of the more interesting shorts actually do, like The Isenbrach Horror). There's all kinds of weird and spooky stuff in Warhammer that's only been mentioned in passing a few times which could be dredged up for horror stories. Nighthaunts and warp daemons are fine and all, but you get those in all the regular kinds of Warhammer novel as well, you know?

[DarkChaplain]

Discussing the Horror novels and thus recommending them like other, regular novels is actually particularly difficult, because it runs the risk of ruining the horror factor itself. I'd say that most of the books are best enjoyed going in blind, and talking about their flaws and perks inevitably touches on how well they execute their monsters, twists and build their characters - all key elements you don't want to spoil for others.

 

That's one of the reasons why I stopped talking much about them, personally. Only so much praise I can heap on Dark Harvest or The Reverie without giving proper in-depth arguments to support it.

 

A big factor for Horror's issues might also be the confusion surrounding the print formats. Because they switched to hardback for the short novels... and released mostly those, with only few notable exceptions (Dark Harvest, The Reverie, Genevieve reissues and the anthologies). Everything else went to hardback only, which also sold out in general retail rather swiftly, not getting reprinted. Those only recently got omnibus'd (at least the 40k ones), and almost all those short novels suffered from being trimmed too short to let their stories and characters breathe.

 

That the anthologies, too, went from being completely new content written for them to mostly or even entirely collecting eShorts? Yeah, well. What do you expect?

[theSpirea]

I think it boils down to Horror not being really that much different from your usual AoS and especially 40K novel. As much as I love the imprint, it doesn't bring anything new/special/different.

 

You can check the number of reviews on Audible/Amazon/Goodreads for Crime vs Horror. The Horror wasn't that popular from the very beginning, even the titles that were published as paperbacks. While it is a strange choice to have some titles A5 hardback and some paperback, I don't believe it's the reason for Horror's lack of popularity.

Edited August 20, 2023 by theSpirea

[DarkChaplain]

Aaaaaand we're getting another week of nothing. Figures.

[Felix Antipodes]

Gotta save them up so they can release ten books at once.  Nobody reads all their stuff, right?

[SkimaskMohawk]

My personal biggest issue with Crime is that I just don't want to go through the whole reintroduction over and over for each book instead of continuing the stories of the characters I just did that with; I shouldn't have to collect them all to generate enough of a profit margin for BL to make a sequel. The many anthologies also aren't what I'd call a compelling proposition, and it's not like they were lauded in the heresy series either. 

 

We can kinda loop it back to the delay between books in a series these days; word bearers has a book every year, night lords had a book every year, gaunts ghosts basically had a book every year up until salvations reach. Maybe they were actually interested in publishing instead of being a marketing device, with these year long delays between the writer finishing and the book getting a release. 

[Sothalor]

Salvation's Reach was, if I'm recalling the timeline correctly, following when Abnett came down with epilepsy. There's a pretty strong correlation, in terms of before/after, with the volume of his BL output. So that's a factor in Abnett's series.

 

ADB is, by his own admission, generally a slower author, and has gone through periods of intense mental health issues. That's a factor in his series.

 

 

Besides that... well, how many ongoing series is BL publishing/scheduling these days? Besides the Siege (which is its own insane thing), we've got, what? Dawn of Fire and Minka Lesk? It feels kind of difficult to include Cain - there's seemingly no rhyme or reason for when/if new books just pop up. The last trilogy I can remember them publishing was Vaults of Terra.

 

I could be wrong here, but it seems like BL has broadly been putting out fewer trilogies and more standalone works.

[Dzirhan]

On 8/20/2023 at 4:28 PM, theSpirea said:

I think it boils down to Horror not being really that much different from your usual AoS and especially 40K novel. As much as I love the imprint, it doesn't bring anything new/special/different.

 

You can check the number of reviews on Audible/Amazon/Goodreads for Crime vs Horror. The Horror wasn't that popular from the very beginning, even the titles that were published as paperbacks. While it is a strange choice to have some titles A5 hardback and some paperback, I don't believe it's the reason for Horror's lack of popularity.

Agreed, its pretty difficult to really have horror standing out when the 40K universe pretty much has daemons, warp beasts, drukhari, necrons, tyranid etc all present on a regular basis, the horror setting works well when its in a universe that such things are really abnormal unlike 40k where that's basically just another day in the Imperium. The stories in the early BL books and stories of 40k and fantasy had plenty of horror type elements and situations in them and where much more grim than current ones today

[DarkChaplain]

Am I the only one who has read the Horror novels and shorts? Because damn, they're very different from your usual 40k fare. Barely any Space Marines or military, for one. Much more domestic, something folks here were actually just as excited for as myself, I seem to remember.

 

There've been so many stories that wouldn't fly under the regular 40k label before, stuff that dealt with non-tabletop factions or institutions, which at best would've been a minor side plot in a full novel because the author really wanted to make it work and got it past their editors somehow.

[Roomsky]

I think the first 3 Crime novels were more effective Horror than anything in the Horror range - as has been mentioned, it's hard to do "fear of the unknown" horror in 40k when we're so familiar with the scariest stuff in the galaxy. Really I'd like them to explore xenos-related horror more frequently, easier to invent a race or use an under-represented force like Enslavers or the Slaugth to re-introduce the "unknown" factor. If the best horror reflects societal anxiety, I think we're a bit passed Lovecraftian at this time (much as it's still very enjoyable.)

 

Crime, meanwhile, taps into the more prevalent modern fear - that you're disposable to the rich (this isn't saying that hasn't always been a problem, but I think it's on everyone's minds atm.) Institutionalized horror is something we already low-key live in so when I read a book saying, for example, that an overclass painfully and horrifically converting those who won't be missed into something that increases their own comfort, it hits closer to home than "there are demons in my house."

[Sothalor]

See, now we just need to combine those concepts.

 

The overclass are in thralldom to the demons in their houses. Smiling, fantastically corrupt elites amongst the political, economic, and social institutions who present an authoritative, legitimized face to the masses whilst they gather for horrifically depraved activities and weird rituals in remote, private locations and are never held to account.

[DarkChaplain]

2 hours ago, Roomsky said:

I think the first 3 Crime novels were more effective Horror than anything in the Horror range - as has been mentioned, it's hard to do "fear of the unknown" horror in 40k when we're so familiar with the scariest stuff in the galaxy. Really I'd like them to explore xenos-related horror more frequently, easier to invent a race or use an under-represented force like Enslavers or the Slaugth to re-introduce the "unknown" factor. If the best horror reflects societal anxiety, I think we're a bit passed Lovecraftian at this time (much as it's still very enjoyable.)

 

Crime, meanwhile, taps into the more prevalent modern fear - that you're disposable to the rich (this isn't saying that hasn't always been a problem, but I think it's on everyone's minds atm.) Institutionalized horror is something we already low-key live in so when I read a book saying, for example, that an overclass painfully and horrifically converting those who won't be missed into something that increases their own comfort, it hits closer to home than "there are demons in my house."

 

Honestly, I'm still more in the eldritch camp. HPL will never not be my jam.

 

I think the institutionalized horror of 40k, human meat in the food factories etc, lobotomization and so forth is interesting, but also kind of overplayed in BL works. You have to make it work by focusing hard on it, like Grim Repast did so excellently, but also Justin D Hill's The Bookkeeper's Skull (which needed another 50-100 pages, suffering big time from the hardcover short novel stuff, whereas the Crime imprint has all been straight to paperback, full 400 page novels).

But it's also something you can find in countless novels in the range. It's gruesome, but no longer shocking to me. It's what I've come to expect from 40k.

 

I think that the psychological aspect is the strongest lever they have with the Horror imprint, but strangely, many authors have pulled their punches in there, instead trying for a more action-guided conclusion (or being basically all that, like Sepulturum). I've critiqued The Oubliette for how it turned out in the endgame, letting slip a lot of setup, and The Bookkeeper's Skull rushes the conclusion as well, when it needed time to stew the mystery further. Same with The Deacon of Wounds, which suffers on two points: It introduces a named demon with a model AND it skips a chunk of character development due to, again, being a hardback short novel.

 

But I'll raise Peter Fehervari again to give a proper counter-example to how overplayed the xenos/daemon horror seems in some works. Because even when you know with him that Tzeentch or Nurgle or Genestealer Cults have their claws in the plot, the execution doesn't binds itself to the model range. Even when he adds Screamers or somesuch to a story, he barely even calls them by name, and presents them as shifting, unknowable creatures. He goes the extra mile to describe the unspeakable in ways that let them remain fluid, difficult to visualize with any firm lines - whereas a lot of times with BL works, you'll default back to "oh it's a Bloodletter, and this is a daemonette".

 

Fehervari takes no shortcuts in visualizing his horror for the reader. He lets it grow in our minds, only sketching the surface layer. Most of the BL authors shy away from that. I don't think it's that those themes are overplayed - it's that those model/artwork-related shortcuts authors often get trapped by don't work. Too bad that we lost Josh, because he was another author who got it right.

Edited August 21, 2023 by DarkChaplain

[Ubiquitous1984]

Does anyone have the new Gotrek LE?  If so can you check the spine to see if it has a major typo?  Multiple people on the Nutters fb page saying that their spine says Rfalmslayer (I’m not kidding!  There are pictures lol).

 

The GW marketing images show the same typo as well. 
 

This has to be the biggest ever BL cock up:  did they think we wouldn’t notice lol.

Edited August 22, 2023 by Ubiquitous1984

[Felix Antipodes]

Isn’t that just how it’s spelt in dwarfish?

[cheywood]

Photographic evidence: 

 

 

 

 

 

[Kelborn]

I asked on a related discord sever and yes, the typo is real and present on all shared pictures of copies....

 

 

Oh god GW..... 

[DukeLeto69]

The discussion on WH Horror and WH Crime has been fascinating fraters. Away from BL I read a lot of crime and historical military fiction. A bit of fantasy. Very little horror. So I don’t really know what makes a good horror novel. I do know (and agree with other posts here) that the W40k setting is so horrific in nature that it permeates most of the (better) work put out there.

 

As @DarkChaplain says, we (certainly I) were crying out for “domestic 40k” to bring the setting to life away from the battlefield. Both Horror and Crime have done that and I have really been enjoying it. I confess to reading both imprints for exactly that domestic insight more so than wanting the horror or crime elements.

 

That is also a major reason I enjoyed Wraight’s Vaults of Terra and Watchers of the Throne books so much. Also the velum wars bit in Haley’s Dawn of Fire debut (was it in that or was it in Wraight’s books - all a blur).

 

I think the BL decision for Horror to be short novels in hardback was...weird! And clearly restrictive. Why stick to a format? Crime being paperbacks fits with the pulp fiction element.

[Ubiquitous1984]

Has anyone else received their Fall of Cadia LE?  If so is your front cover damaged due to a ribbon imprint?

 

Mine has, and it looks pretty bad.  Not happy for £90!

[skylerboodie]

8 minutes ago, Ubiquitous1984 said:

Has anyone else received their Fall of Cadia LE?  If so is your front cover damaged due to a ribbon imprint?

 

Mine has, and it looks pretty bad.  Not happy for £90!

 

Yep mine has the ribbon indentation too; not sure how they got so compressed to cause that damage but it's not ideal!

[darkhorse0607]

45 minutes ago, Ubiquitous1984 said:

Has anyone else received their Fall of Cadia LE?  If so is your front cover damaged due to a ribbon imprint?

 

Mine has, and it looks pretty bad.  Not happy for £90!

Leutin just posted on the Community page of his channel that his was, as well as him having other folks reach out to him about it

 

He reached out to GW and they said sorry, you can send it back and get a refund or keep it and get a $20 voucher

[Ubiquitous1984]

6 minutes ago, darkhorse0607 said:

Leutin just posted on the Community page of his channel that his was, as well as him having other folks reach out to him about it

 

He reached out to GW and they said sorry, you can send it back and get a refund or keep it and get a $20 voucher

Thank you - looks like it's a standard offer from GW as a few people have posted the same response on the Nutters FB page.

 

 

[aa.logan]

I’d happily have a slightly damaged cover rather than a vanished in the warp copy like mine seems to have done…

[skylerboodie]

I'm still waiting for my Shadow of the Eighth LE to be shipped...

[aa.logan]

Puts my delay in a little more perspective.

[theSpirea]

Horror vs Crime, I couldn't resist and tried looking a bit more into available data and if there's anything it would tell us.

 

Let's start with Paperback vs Hardback

 

The average hardback length is 56.5K words, for paperback we're looking at 88K words Horror and 95K words Crime. There's no information on who decides which title gets paperback or hardback treatment. We don't know if this is decided before the author starts writing the book and is given 40-60K words limit or if it's decided later based on the first draft. The only confirmed part is that BL decided hardback vs paperback based on the length of the book, applicable only for Horror in this instance. This was confirmed by Nick Kyme during one of the BL Events.

 

What does it mean? Well, since we don't know if it's the authors' or editors' decision we don't know whom to blame if the book is rushed and would use another 50-100 pages. Here I'd like to point out that not that long ago I made a post about Primarchs novels length and it was fairly clear from the data it's very likely the authors' decision to cut some titles shorter. Quick recap: Primarch novels average 53K words, ranging from 44K to 61K - that's a pretty substantial difference (38%).

 

Back to Horror vs Crime. Let's check what other data we have available: reviews/ratings. I used three sources: Amazon.com (there's barely any difference between .com and .co.uk), Audible, and Goodreads. I'm not aware of any other site that would track Warhammer books (sales/ratings/reviews).

 

Here are two charts showing the number of ratings combined from all three sources. Since some of the titles are not available in audio I've also added a comparison of all sources vs Goodreads only. Yes, Goodreads also includes ratings from people listening to the Audiobook

 

Here are publishing dates:

Title	Published
Bloodlines	2020-August
Flesh and Steel	2020-September
Grim Repast	2021-September
Wraithbone Phoenix, The	2022-August
No Good Men [Anthology]	2020-August
Vorbis Conspiracy, The [Anthology]	2022-September
Broken City [Anthology]	2021-August
Sanction & Sin [Anthology]	2021-August
King of the Spoil, The	2023-June

 

 

Title	Published
Oubliette, The	2019-December
Wicked and the Damned, The [Anthology]	2019-March
Maledictions [Anthology]	2019-March
Dark Harvest	2019-November
Castle of Blood	2019-November
Invocations [Anthology]	2019-November
House of Night and Chain, The	2019-October
Sepulturum	2020-March
Anathemas [Anthology]	2020-March
Reverie, The	2020-October
Harrowed Paths, The [Anthology]	2021-February
Deacon of Wounds, The	2021-January
Accursed, The [Anthology]	2021-October
Gothghul Hollow	2022-January
Bookkeeper's Skull, The	2022-January
Briardark	2022-October
Resting Places, The [Anthology]	2023-March
Black-Eyed Saint	2023-March

 

 

 

 

Both imprints started strong but it seems the initial excitement quickly faded away. Can't really see the Horror doing that much worse, especially if we consider it includes AoS which on its own isn't that much popular to begin with.

 

If mods believe it doesn't belong here, feel free to delete/move it. I couldn't find any other appropriate thread and wasn't sure if starting a new one would be a good idea.