WH40k game 10th Edition Space Marine Boxset Rumours

[Trevius]

5 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

 

But what is the reason for them not to be? Is it lore related or is it simply a case of GW not having updated all the models yet?

 

From a lore point of view, decades into the new setting, chapters that have access to and embraced Primaris, whose Chapter Masters have now crossed the Rubicon, would be transitioning to entire forces of upgraded Astartes.

 Exactly. Lore-wise almost all the new marines are trained and made as primaris, so it would be logical that in time all the units are primaris, as the firstborn keep dying in battle or crossing the rubicon themselves.

Edited March 9, 2023 by Trevius

[WARMASTER_]

1 hour ago, Orange Knight said:

 

But what is the reason for them not to be? Is it lore related or is it simply a case of GW not having updated all the models yet?

 

From a lore point of view, decades into the new setting, chapters that have access to and embraced Primaris, whose Chapter Masters have now crossed the Rubicon, would be transitioning to entire forces of upgraded Astartes.

Lore wise an easy example would be just to look at the latest BT codex, it states that it’s rare for a marine to  be called a veteran before at least a century of service so while yes of course there will be Primaris inside a first company [or it’s equivalent] either by crossing the rubicon or simply through seer martial excellence, it wouldn’t make sense if they all were at all Primaris for most chapters 

[Orange Knight]

24 minutes ago, WARMASTER_ said:

Lore wise an easy example would be just to look at the latest BT codex, it states that it’s rare for a marine to  be called a veteran before at least a century of service so while yes of course there will be Primaris inside a first company [or it’s equivalent] either by crossing the rubicon or simply through seer martial excellence, it wouldn’t make sense if they all were at all Primaris for most chapters 

 

Perhaps, but you also want the models to be able to reflect the lore going forward. We could easily have another time jump of 50-100 years in the setting. In fact some novels already take place after the Dark Imperium trilogy, and the main narrative (with the Lion returning) must also take place after the Devasation of Baal.

 

It would be a mistake for GW to release models that are tied to the small period of time in between the introduction of Primaris, and the full transition of chapter into the upgraded Astartes. This is the case in particular because we no longer have a static setting but an advancing narrative.

[WARMASTER_]

2 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

 

Perhaps, but you also want the models to be able to reflect the lore going forward. We could easily have another time jump of 50-100 years in the setting. In fact some novels already take place after the Dark Imperium trilogy, and the main narrative (with the Lion returning) must also take place after the Devasation of Baal.

 

It would be a mistake for GW to release models that are tied to the small period of time in between the introduction of Primaris, and the full transition of chapter into the upgraded Astartes. This is the case in particular because we no longer have a static setting but an advancing narrative.

I mean would it really? not only are Terminators still very much around in current post rift 40K but it’s only your personal opinion that they’re dying out or that we’re getting another time jump.

 

There’s also absolutely not small window of time for them to exist within this narrative that’s just incorrect, I think forgetting there’s 10k years of sand box you can play in not to mention the compatibility with 30k

 

Terminator are a classic and popular kit which will definitely sell very well 

Edited March 9, 2023 by WARMASTER_
Grammar

[Rhavien]

13 hours ago, WrathOfTheLion said:

I think either way if they are Terminators, most people won't care what they are, they'll be cool.

Till they realize that GW have decided to change the classic dog faces into cat faces 

 

Ot topic: I can't wait to get solid info finally! All is Primaris? Count me in. Upscaled Terminators? Count me in! And as long as all those gorgeous 30k models have proper 40k rules I won't complain about hover tanks and whatnot. Somehow a few Spartans, Sicarans and Land Raiders survived the devastation of Baal 

[Orange Knight]

24 minutes ago, WARMASTER_ said:

I mean do you really? not only are Terminators still very much around in current post rift 40K but it’s only your personal opinion that they’re dying out, or there’s a small window of time for them to exist within this narrative which is just wrong, I think forgetting there’s 10k years of sand box you can play in not to mention the compatibility with 30k

 

Terminator are a classic and popular kit which will definitely sell very well 

 

I don't know. Apparently some massive battles are coming. In official lore the Blood Angels are almost entirely Primaris, as an example - The exceptions being a few characters and a single Sanguinary Guard that survived the Devastation of Baal.

 

So from a lore point of view, if they release a Primaris Dante as has been rumoured (which would take place after the Tyranid war), I doubt the Blood Angels would create non Primaris Marines from that point. It would make more sense to future-proof the new models for the lore going forward. This applies to all chapters.

 

As for playing in the 10k year sandbox - yes, you can do that. The old models exist for this purpose. There are lots of "Firstborn" terminator kits.

 

 

[Captain Idaho]

Very few people buy into the new background material in the same way the classic battles from the 10K of history between 30K and 40K. How interesting is the Reign of Blood, the Nova Terra Interregnum, the Battle of Maccragge, the 2nd Tyrannic War, Badab, the war for Armageddon...? Now tell me there's anything new since Primaris that captured the imagination of the community in any of the same way.

[Orange Knight]

12 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

Very few people buy into the new background material in the same way the classic battles from the 10K of history between 30K and 40K. How interesting is the Reign of Blood, the Nova Terra Interregnum, the Battle of Maccragge, the 2nd Tyrannic War, Badab, the war for Armageddon...? Now tell me there's anything new since Primaris that captured the imagination of the community in any of the same way.

 

They really should, because the Devastation of Baal in particular is one of the very best novels involving the 40k setting, and is a more epic conflict than anything mentioned above. 

 

I can't overstate how amazing that novel is, and how fantastic some moments are.

Edited March 9, 2023 by Orange Knight

[Halandaar]

32 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

Now tell me there's anything new since Primaris that captured the imagination of the community in any of the same way.

 

Frankly even if GW came up with it's best ever narrative for 10th Edition the majority of the community wouldn't even give it a chance (or notice) because the prevailing opinion seems to be that new is always worse than old.

[Captain Idaho]

Maybe. I've tried the modern stuff and I find it 2 dimensional and hollow.

 

Regardless of any interpretation of why this may be the case, the fact remains most people don't like the new stuff. You said that yourself.

 

Therefore shelving Firstborn is just an ideological thing at this point. It doesn't make sense from a business perspective to close off anything "before" just because you're pushing a new product line.

 

That's not to say they couldn't keep that thing alive with the correct AoD campaign books that introduced armies from across the history of 40K.

Edited March 9, 2023 by Captain Idaho

[Blindhamster]

52 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

Very few people buy into the new background material in the same way the classic battles from the 10K of history between 30K and 40K. How interesting is the Reign of Blood, the Nova Terra Interregnum, the Battle of Maccragge, the 2nd Tyrannic War, Badab, the war for Armageddon...? Now tell me there's anything new since Primaris that captured the imagination of the community in any of the same way.

Devastation of Baal was basically the Battle of Maccragge and 2nd Tyrannic War... but good with a lot more detail. It was also covered over books spanning pre and post primaris though, so its a bit different.

 

Armageddon was top tier.

 

Badab was fine, the reason it was as good as it was was purely because of Alan Bligh tbh, and falls well outside the GW writing. No doubt Forgeworld will eventually get to the scouring and it'll just be a continuation of the HH ruleset tbh.

 

Reign of blood is also fine, but its hardly a super fleshed out event, we have high level information thats referenced in various places, and honestly its just like a mini, less impactful HH (same for Badab if I'm being totally honest, but unlike Badab, Reign of Blood hasn't had enough love to make it that interesting).

 

as for Nova Terra Interregnum, those events are not super fleshed out and whilst they may be interesting, I don't think I've seen gaming groups playing through their events

 

But to each their own

 

p.s. again with the "most people", you have absolutely no idea what "most people" like or want. Unless you're going to do a poll of every person that plays or reads 40k.

Edited March 9, 2023 by Blindhamster
again with the "most people"

[Cleon]

40 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

 

They really should, because the Devastation of Baal in particular is one of the very best novels involving the 40k setting, and is a more epic conflict than anything mentioned above. 

 

I can't overstate how amazing that novel is, and how fantastic some moments are.

It is a great book, but compared to the 2nd and 3rd Wars of Armaggeddon it's not as iconic to me, if at least partially because with the Tyranid invasion of Macragge it's all a bit 'been done before' - Chapter homewold turning around a Hive fleet is the Ultra's thing, not the Blood Angels (historicaly speaking at least) and it', the successor chapters coming together to fight as a Legion is a Dark Angel thing (and more recently the Fists).

[KnightofSigismund]

24 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

Maybe. I've tried the modern stuff and I find it 2 dimensional and hollow.

 

Regardless of any interpretation of why this may be the case, the fact remains most people don't like the new stuff. You said that yourself.

 

Therefore shelving Firstborn is just an ideological thing at this point. It doesn't make sense from a business perspective to close off anything "before" just because you're pushing a new product line.

 

That's not to say they couldn't keep that thing alive with the correct AoD campaign books that introduced armies from across the history of 40K.

Most people do like the new stuff, primaris outsell old kits very well. Most people online seem to hate the new stuff. But on a whole in the wider gaming community the new stuff is loved. Look at the majority of armies at a local store on game night? It’s newer stuff.

[Shinespider]

There is no more universal statement in hobbydom than "The thing that I got excited about when I was 14 was WAAAAY better than this thing that's happening now, when I'm an adult!"

[Blindhamster]

12 minutes ago, Cleon said:

It is a great book, but compared to the 2nd and 3rd Wars of Armaggeddon it's not as iconic to me, if at least partially because with the Tyranid invasion of Macragge it's all a bit 'been done before' - Chapter homewold turning around a Hive fleet is the Ultra's thing, not the Blood Angels (historicaly speaking at least) and it', the successor chapters coming together to fight as a Legion is a Dark Angel thing (and more recently the Fists).

To me, the events of Devastation of Baal were more interesting than the others because we had the events covered over multiple campaign books, as well as the events leading up to, including and following them covered across multiple novels too, plus codex writeups. Making the invasion probably the most fleshed out modern day (real world, covering last 15-20 years) invasion from any species. I totally get the point about ultramarines having had similar before, however hive fleet leviathan is noted as being the largest fleet to invade by quite some margin, and the events were about more than just Baal, whilst it was very important. Bringing the legion together isn't really a dark angels thing or an imperial fists thing. It hasn't really been done in the way it was for Devastation of Baal by any other chapter to the same extent (full mobilisation of all sons of sanguinius bar... 2? successors). Regardless, i don't think "invasion by x" should be any one chapters "thing", it's kind of dumb when that becomes a thing and is exactly why there was a switchup and you've seen Ultramarines matched up with something other than nids and blood angels with something other than orks or black legion in the last decade.

 

Of course, its personal opinion and personal bias because I've never found Calgar very interesting by comparison, but always loved Dante, and the novels in particular obviously follow him for the most part.

[Captain Idaho]

Confusing liking new models in a living game with liking the new campaign books and settings misrepresents what I'm saying.

[Orange Knight]

11 minutes ago, Shinespider said:

There is no more universal statement in hobbydom than "The thing that I got excited about when I was 14 was WAAAAY better than this thing that's happening now, when I'm an adult!"

 

This is basically what it comes down to.

 

People are comparing things as they are now, to a hazy, dream-like, nostalgic memory of the things they really liked when they first got into the hobby. The truth is that there was bad lore then, just like there is bad lore now. There was great lore also, but there is great lore now too.

 

The Devastation of Baal to me is one of the best 40k battles, and it eclipses Armageddon for me because of the incredible journey involving Dante across the novels, and what he personally goes through.

 

I would actually like to point out that the average Black Library novel today is better and more consistent than they were 10/15 years ago, but I guess this is subjective and hard to quantify. I personally go through a LOT of 40k fiction.

[Cleon]

15 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

To me, the events of Devastation of Baal were more interesting than the others because we had the events covered over multiple campaign books, as well as the events leading up to, including and following them covered across multiple novels too, plus codex writeups. Making the invasion probably the most fleshed out modern day (real world, covering last 15-20 years) invasion from any species. I totally get the point about ultramarines having had similar before, however hive fleet leviathan is noted as being the largest fleet to invade by quite some margin, and the events were about more than just Baal, whilst it was very important. Bringing the legion together isn't really a dark angels thing or an imperial fists thing. It hasn't really been done in the way it was for Devastation of Baal by any other chapter to the same extent (full mobilisation of all sons of sanguinius bar... 2? successors). Regardless, i don't think "invasion by x" should be any one chapters "thing", it's kind of dumb when that becomes a thing and is exactly why there was a switchup and you've seen Ultramarines matched up with something other than nids and blood angels with something other than orks or black legion in the last decade.

 

Of course, its personal opinion and personal bias because I've never found Calgar very interesting by comparison, but always loved Dante, and the novels in particular obviously follow him for the most part.

True, but there have been (well described in lore, rather than sub faction rules mentioned in codexes) what four or five major hive fleets, when two of them manage to hit first founding Chapter homeworlds, it just makes the galaxy feel small to me.

[Bryan Blaire]

28 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

Confusing liking new models in a living game with liking the new campaign books and settings misrepresents what I'm saying.

So you’d be perfectly happy with all the old models and designs going away completely, and getting rules to play anything in campaign books of any era with any of those models, right?

 

Because realistically, almost anything set in the 9K years between the Scouring and current 40K events is all living, since it hasn’t been written about officially yet…

 

@Orange Knight I think you have to accept that the “lore” to everyone else doesn’t necessarily include what’s written by Black Library.  To some folks, the “lore” of the setting is what they are talking about, and is found only in the game books themselves, like Codexes, BRBs, etc.  So while you may consume a lot of Black Library books, not every one does, nor should they be required to, to get the same feel for the “lore” of the game setting.

Edited March 9, 2023 by Bryan Blaire

[TrawlingCleaner]

=][= Let's steer this back on topic folks. As we've no mention of campaigns or narrative, let's keep to the rumours mentioned in the original post. The veracity of past campaigns and discussion around them may be better suited in the Amicus. There are plenty of Firstborn and Primaris threads in the Space Marine forum too rather than rehash discussions here =][=

[Triszin]

Looking at the brutalis Sprues I'd guess the new "ranged dreadnaught" is a just brutalis base swapping the melee sprue.

 

[KnightofSigismund]

1 minute ago, Triszin said:

Looking at the brutalis Sprues I'd guess the new "ranged dreadnaught" is a just brutalis base swapping the melee sprue.

 

That makes the most sense honestly, but I still kinda wish they’d give us a unique chassis, I love the redemptor models but I think it would be a great opportunity to throw one more variant in.

[BrainFireBob]

On 3/9/2023 at 7:12 AM, Cleon said:

True, but there have been (well described in lore, rather than sub faction rules mentioned in codexes) what four or five major hive fleets, when two of them manage to hit first founding Chapter homeworlds, it just makes the galaxy feel small to me.

Making the galaxy feel small is my issue with nearly all the new lore. Where is the "emerging ftom the Warp 100 years late" element? Warp travel is now apparently Star Trek reliable, if risky.

[tangoalphatwo]

What if the Nids were trying to hit the founding chapters home worlds on purpose?

[Mike8404]

On 3/2/2023 at 8:11 AM, Blindhamster said:

rumours for terminators suggest scaled up to primaris size indomitus. 

That's old news now, though.  There will be a new Indomitus kit for 30k, since they can be taken as troops and the Indomitus kit is ancient and desperate for an update.

 

However, the Aduantors rumor continues to look more and more viable imo.  A Gravis unit that's modified and looks more like a Veteran unit than the current Gravis units is how they've been rumored to look like.  Aduant is also a real word that means "bodyguard", so it's in GW's alley to take a real word and add "or" at the end.  A dedicated melee Gravis unit is missing, too

Edited March 12, 2023 by Mike8404