Wh40k 10th Edition Rules changes

[Captain Idaho]

1 minute ago, Noserenda said:

No because half a dozen cards is less than a hundreds of pages book? 

People are assuming the stats will change radically on weapons when i suspect the difference will be exactly the same as characters having more attacks or a master crafted version.

 

The differences in Marine Bolters in the new Primaris line contest that somewhat though.

 

And trawling through datasheets currently doesn't require going through all the fluff pages.

 

I'm not defending current 40K, it's pretty bad, but so far I'm not seeing any big improvement in streamlining.

[Redcomet]

1 hour ago, Orange Knight said:

The big question is, can they maintain the simplicity and limit the codex creep?

 

If it was me I would have a system with 6 core stratagems, and a single extra one unique to every faction.

It sounds to me like they have already written the codexes. 

[Karhedron]

I have been reading and digesting this all for a while. I will come straight out and admit I am surprised that they are changing the rules more than I expected. I didn't think they would ditch the codices again after the big reset from 7th-8th.

 

However, free rules, easily sortable datacards and a cut down on bloat all sound promising. I am only Long Fang and I have remained wedded to my paper codices. I haven't even bothered using my download codes. But maybe it is time I moved into the 42nd millennium and accepted that digital is the way forward for a living ruleset.

 

Colour me surprised by cautiously optimistic.

[Toxichobbit]

47 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

 

Yeah I think the management of the rules is cleaner, but that's not really streamlining...? It just seems like lots to remember. Sure I can get the cards, but i got the Codex right now too. Looking up details on the cards is much the same as trawling through a book?

 

I dunno. Just doesn't feel quicker on what they've shown us. I trust it is as that's something they're selling which likely has been playtested.

 

There might be some streamlining in that there is no way they can fit all the options for some units on a datasheet. So I'd imagine things like Plague Marines won't have all their melee options, instead they'll have "melee plague weapon" and "heavy melee plague weapon". We might also see streamlining in that units like SM Captains loose a load of options. So the Firstborn Captain will just be allowed a plasma pistol & power sword now, because that's the only one they sell.

 

Note: I'm not saying this is good streamlining. In fact I think it's quite the opposite. Though some consolidation of the amount of weapon profiles is needed GW, will inevitably take it too far. And I think we can all agree that reducing options for model loadouts is bad.

 

35 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

I hope you're right but seems like trawling through cards is just as long as jumping to a page in a book. Seems the same thing?

 

I've played games with cards rather than books before now. It's generally quicker. However, you need more space to play so you can spread the cards out a bit to ease navigation. Otherwise, if you have a dozen or so unit cards in a deck and have to leaf through them every time you want a rule or stat, then there's barely any difference to it being pages in a book.

[ChapterMasterGodfrey]

16 minutes ago, Toxichobbit said:

there is no way they can fit all the options for some units on a datasheet.

If you recall the "Scaramouche" leak, the guy in that (badly) described this new datasheet. The datasheet has all the options and could potentially be quite large. The battle one though just has the options your model is equipped with. 

[DemonGSides]

58 minutes ago, tzeentch9 said:

You’re going to have a lot more than 6 cards, unless you’re playing combat patrol. 

1 Card for your HQ/Warlord
1 Card for your troops, possible 2 if you have multiple kinds of troops

3-4 cards for your other troops.  6-7 cards maximum.

How often are you bringing more than 6 bespoke units to a game?  You don't need an individual card for each squad of intercessors, as the intercessor card has all their stats on it.  You won't need a bespoke card for each squad of Vertus Praetors, you'll need one card for Vertus Praetors.

I played a 50 PL game this weekend, my deathguard army would need;

 

1 Card for Lord of Contagion

1 Card for Plague Marines

1 Card for Pox Walkers

1 Card for Tallyman

1 Card for Other Hero Guy Who's Gross Name Is Escaping Me

1 Card for Myphitic Blighthaulers

1 Card for Snot Cannon Tank

 

that's 7 cards, in a list I was TRYING To utilize a bunch of different units.  A more competitive list would have even fewer cards.  7 cards is pretty easy to hold onto, a lot easier than holding onto a book, and can be organized such that I order it in the same order I plan on activating my shooting/charge phases.
 

A combat Patrol is going to use like 5 cards; Blood Angels Combat patrol is 1 librarian card, 1 impulsor card, 1 aggresor card, 1 intercessor and 1 incursors card.

And once again; this removes ALL the other stuff out of a codex that I DON"T need for the game at hand, which automatically makes it easier to use than the current system.

1 hour ago, Captain Idaho said:

I hope you're right but seems like trawling through cards is just as long as jumping to a page in a book. Seems the same thing?

 

There's no way you truly think this is true.  The cards are going to have the characters pictures on them, whereas with a book, you've gotta either know the page ahead of time (More memorization), or go look it up.  Either way, a book is going to be 2-3x the size of the cards, so automatically it's going to be more difficult just on an obtuse-ness factor.

[Captain Idaho]

@ChapterMasterGodfrey

 

Throw enough mud at a wall...

Edited March 23, 2023 by Captain Idaho

[dickyelsdon]

7 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

...

 

There's no way you truly think this is true.  The cards are going to have the characters pictures on them, whereas with a book, you've gotta either know the page ahead of time (More memorization), or go look it up.  Either way, a book is going to be 2-3x the size of the cards, so automatically it's going to be more difficult just on an obtuse-ness factor.

 

The key thing with cards and having 99% of the units rules on them, if your opponent asks about the unit, you can just hand them the card.  No need to refer to a page in the book, a few pages of stratagems, one for command abilities, another book for a relic or whatever.

AoS was like that late V1 early V2. Its got silly now though with more stuff in the books than 40k, and many factions dont even get card packs any more.

 

EDIT: We need Dark Millenium back from 1994!  All the vehicle cards, psychic power cards, upgrade/relic cards.  Put everything you need on the table.

Edited March 23, 2023 by dickyelsdon

[brother_b]

I’m concerned, a bit.

 

They said the depth will be there, that’s all I want. I want my army to feel like it should, and options made this a reality.

 

Its a done deal though so I’m ready to embrace change as my favorite game enters the 10th edition.

 

No Tzeentch though, I’m not going to embrace THAT much change.

[happyslugger]

I haven't played in a while as I wasn't a fan of buying book after book and new special rule on new special rule (as I saw it).  Anything that makes playing the game less book reliant will make me happy.

[tzeentch9]

14 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

1 Card for your HQ/Warlord
1 Card for your troops, possible 2 if you have multiple kinds of troops

3-4 cards for your other troops.  6-7 cards maximum.

How often are you bringing more than 6 bespoke units to a game?  You don't need an individual card for each squad of intercessors, as the intercessor card has all their stats on it.  You won't need a bespoke card for each squad of Vertus Praetors, you'll need one card for Vertus Praetors.

I played a 50 PL game this weekend, my deathguard army would need;

 

1 Card for Lord of Contagion

1 Card for Plague Marines

1 Card for Pox Walkers

1 Card for Tallyman

1 Card for Other Hero Guy Who's Gross Name Is Escaping Me

1 Card for Myphitic Blighthaulers

1 Card for Snot Cannon Tank

 

that's 7 cards, in a list I was TRYING To utilize a bunch of different units.  A more competitive list would have even fewer cards.  7 cards is pretty easy to hold onto, a lot easier than holding onto a book, and can be organized such that I order it in the same order I plan on activating my shooting/charge phases.
 

A combat Patrol is going to use like 5 cards; Blood Angels Combat patrol is 1 librarian card, 1 impulsor card, 1 aggresor card, 1 intercessor and 1 incursors card.

And once again; this removes ALL the other stuff out of a codex that I DON"T need for the game at hand, which automatically makes it easier to use than the current system.

 

There's no way you truly think this is true.  The cards are going to have the characters pictures on them, whereas with a book, you've gotta either know the page ahead of time (More memorization), or go look it up.  Either way, a book is going to be 2-3x the size of the cards, so automatically it's going to be more difficult just on an obtuse-ness factor.

In a 2000pt game you could need 9 cards without trying hard, plus the couple you need for the army. That’s a lot to visually scan each time you can’t remember something. Some armies don’t have a lot of datasheets, some have loads. You could easily get to a dozen plus with gsc 

[KnightofSigismund]

I’m really starting to believe some people just complain about positive things just to complain. 

[Bryan Blaire]

4 minutes ago, tzeentch9 said:

In a 2000pt game you could need 9 cards without trying hard, plus the couple you need for the army. That’s a lot to visually scan each time you can’t remember something. Some armies don’t have a lot of datasheets, some have loads. You could easily get to a dozen plus with gsc 

There’s a lot to scan visually in an army book when you don’t remember something as well (you might even say that there is likely more to scan, and it may be less relevant to the game)… that’s not a negative about data sheets on card.

[Captain Idaho]

38 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

1 Card for your HQ/Warlord
1 Card for your troops, possible 2 if you have multiple kinds of troops

3-4 cards for your other troops.  6-7 cards maximum.

How often are you bringing more than 6 bespoke units to a game?  You don't need an individual card for each squad of intercessors, as the intercessor card has all their stats on it.  You won't need a bespoke card for each squad of Vertus Praetors, you'll need one card for Vertus Praetors.

I played a 50 PL game this weekend, my deathguard army would need;

 

1 Card for Lord of Contagion

1 Card for Plague Marines

1 Card for Pox Walkers

1 Card for Tallyman

1 Card for Other Hero Guy Who's Gross Name Is Escaping Me

1 Card for Myphitic Blighthaulers

1 Card for Snot Cannon Tank

 

that's 7 cards, in a list I was TRYING To utilize a bunch of different units.  A more competitive list would have even fewer cards.  7 cards is pretty easy to hold onto, a lot easier than holding onto a book, and can be organized such that I order it in the same order I plan on activating my shooting/charge phases.
 

A combat Patrol is going to use like 5 cards; Blood Angels Combat patrol is 1 librarian card, 1 impulsor card, 1 aggresor card, 1 intercessor and 1 incursors card.

And once again; this removes ALL the other stuff out of a codex that I DON"T need for the game at hand, which automatically makes it easier to use than the current system.

 

There's no way you truly think this is true.  The cards are going to have the characters pictures on them, whereas with a book, you've gotta either know the page ahead of time (More memorization), or go look it up.  Either way, a book is going to be 2-3x the size of the cards, so automatically it's going to be more difficult just on an obtuse-ness factor.

 

My average list has 11-13 different types units in it.

 

Do I think it's true that it's easy to go a book with about 20 consecutive pages that ordered HQ, Troops, Elites, Fast Attack, Heavy Support etc than shuffle through cards that won't be in order after the first turn I used them?

 

Well...

[Dr. Clock]

Basically everything we learned last night seemed positive to me. Completely separating melee attack profiles from the basic unit info already eliminates quite a bit of the cognitive load of calculating S and A based on the various buffs and weirdness. The perennial 'does a +1S bonus stack with a power fist bonus' question effectively can never happen, and that's a good thing.

 

OC instead of ObSec and its manipulations does just add depth; it's not a simplification and I think it's a big step in the right direction.

 

The bit about encouraging more list diversity in a positive sense rather than negative one is also encouraging, although this does suggest a pretty high complexity ceiling if one builds in a more Highlander format. Potentially a good thing overall, though... and from a sheer construction POV the 'HQ + up to 3 of anything and 6 Troops' makes me smile.

 

I would have given the opening of 10th a pass if the rules weren't free, at least if you already had the 9th Ed. 'dex for a given faction. I wonder if rules in the app will 'just be free' from here on or whether there'll be a paywall slowly creeping across the app as Codexes release like last time. Feels like the business case for 'mandatory codex purchase for the game' may be waning. I'm already paying for Warhammer+ and I basically don't use my codexes much given unlicensed sites and applications are generally easier to use during the game anyhow!

 

Cheers,

 

E

[TheMawr]

58 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

 

My average list has 11-13 different types units in it.

 

Do I think it's true that it's easy to go a book with about 20 consecutive pages that ordered HQ, Troops, Elites, Fast Attack, Heavy Support etc than shuffle through cards that won't be in order after the first turn I used them?

 

Well...

 

But remember, it takes less effort to make a book out of cards than it is to make cards out of a book (unless those profiles are already in card format in wich case its a matter of copying and/or scissors)

 

It will just be another thing for them to sell.. faction themed walletbooks ( I dont know how you call those things in english.)

[WrathOfTheLion]

1 hour ago, Captain Idaho said:

 

My average list has 11-13 different types units in it.

 

Do I think it's true that it's easy to go a book with about 20 consecutive pages that ordered HQ, Troops, Elites, Fast Attack, Heavy Support etc than shuffle through cards that won't be in order after the first turn I used them?

 

Well...

Usually you lay the cards out, not just keep them in a stack. It's kind of hard to explain if you haven't played a game that uses it like that, but they're pretty handy. What you normally do is have them laid out, but then have the book open to the army rules or whatever, so you never really need to flip pages. If you get a system going well, it really speeds things up not having to flip back through.

[Lagrath]

Does anyone have a link to the previous rumors or the leaked transcript? Would be interesting to go back and now and compare to what's been confirmed so far to get an idea of what else is coming with 10th.

 

Though I'm concerned and pessimistic about these changes overall, I will say that it sounds like maybe they are finding ways for games to be impacted without the need to remove the entirety of multi-model units. One reason they went overboard with lethality in 9th was to try to artificially speed up the game. If they remove objective secured and make battleshock something that decreased the efficacy of damaged multi-model units, then you can still impact the game just by removing some models rather than having to delete every last model in the unit to make a difference. That would be a great change. 

[phandaal]

16 minutes ago, WrathOfTheLion said:

Usually you lay the cards out, not just keep them in a stack. It's kind of hard to explain if you haven't played a game that uses it like that, but they're pretty handy. What you normally do is have them laid out, but then have the book open to the army rules or whatever, so you never really need to flip pages. If you get a system going well, it really speeds things up not having to flip back through.

 

This is how we did it back in the day with Warmachine/Hordes. Each unit had its own card and you would just stick them at one end of the table. In practice, flipping through them takes no time at all.

 

1 hour ago, Captain Idaho said:

Do I think it's true that it's easy to go a book with about 20 consecutive pages that ordered HQ, Troops, Elites, Fast Attack, Heavy Support etc than shuffle through cards that won't be in order after the first turn I used them?

 

Well...

 

Apparently this is very confusing for some people, but I get you. If I had not used unit cards for other games before I would probably feel the same way. It does end up being very simple to reference everything though.

[Valkyrion]

Me and mine do this already for Horus Heresy - the liber books are hefty tomes so I put the unit profiles, weapon profiles and any special rules that are more complicated than Rending or Sunder on an A5 sheet for each unit. So my Alpha Legion list has about 25 sheets representing the entirety of the army and I pick out the dozen or so I need when building a list. As units die the A4 sheet gets put away again. 

Copy and paste errors aside it helps because if you only have one unit with, say, Concussive ability, it's bullet pointed on the relevant sheet so you don't have to flick through the main books to try and find it. 

 

But 9th edition didn't really suffer from over complicated datasheets, it suffered from cumulative special rules requiring multiple datasheets to interact with each other. If 10th doesn't sort that out then it doesn't matter what's on the datasheet. 

[jaxom]

9 hours ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

 

My fear of that is not every faction has as many options as marines. I was always fine with marines having the most unit options because it is by far the most popular faction and they would be stupid not to, from a sales and customer satisfaction standing. Some factions don't even have 3 options for every slot. I would prefer they just balance the units better so it doesn't matter if someone spams a unit. It only sucked when the unit was "meta" as some people put it. I like seeing a primarily biker white scars army or a flame aggressor heavy salamander army. Seemed more faithful to the lore.

I’m pretty sure it’s rule of three (no more than three of the same unit) and not three different options in a slot. Sounded like slots don’t exist anymore. So you could have a White Scars army with 3 Bike Squads, 3 Outrider Squads, 3 ATV squads, etc. The special rule for a unit may not be one per unit taken. It sounded like Mike was referring to character style special rules. For example, all Termagants can use their scuttling rule, but perhaps only one Captain per turn can use Rites of Battle (assuming it stops being an aura and is more like My Will Be Done).

 

5 hours ago, Toxichobbit said:

I generally feel positive about these rules changes. I went into this stream expecting some version of one of the leaks & the very real consideration that I would skip 10th. Now I don't think I'll be skipping it, most of the changes I like. However, there are a couple of things I'm concerned about:

 

Psychic powers - psychic phase being gone isn't itself an issue, but the psychic powers being on the datasheet sounds like a move back to 3rd edition, which was the most generic, bland and unsatisfying version of psychic powers they've ever done. I'm also concerned that if the psychic powers are on the datasheet they're not chosen, but determined by which psyker the datasheet represents. Again, this is something from 3rd and went a long way towards making psychic powers in that edition an after-thought. I'd like more information on this to (hopefully) ease my concern.

 

Legends - zero mention of it. Is it going to be updated? Are those old models/weapon loadouts being binned forever? Not a concern for competitive players, but given that they're a vocal minority, I think it's still important that we have clarification on whether we can use our old models or if they're destined to just gather dust on a shelf.

 

 

It sounds like the idea was to differentiate psykers specifically by tuning the powers they had. I’d guess they’ll have more than one per data sheet, but they will be set.

Goodbye Legends is my guess. Time for counts-as?

 

Stupid phone is being stupid, but to the Captain’s point, I think it’s ‘wait and see’. I would guess that the meat and potato weapons won’t really be different from what they are now.

 

 

4 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

I think it was Xenith who said quite rightly there is a difference between good complexity and excessive/bad complexity. The mental load is important I agree and it's possible that has been decreased with the way the game plays.

 

I'm still a little concerned about needing to memorise every weapon in my army or else run back to referencing again, rather than know "power fists get S8 in practice with Marines" and now some get S9 etc.

 

Also, if the weapons are standardised in practice, why not have them that anyway rather than individually on datasheets? Works well for HH after all.

 

I hope you're right but seems like trawling through cards is just as long as jumping to a page in a book. Seems the same thing?

[DemonGSides]

2 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

 

My average list has 11-13 different types units in it.

 

Do I think it's true that it's easy to go a book with about 20 consecutive pages that ordered HQ, Troops, Elites, Fast Attack, Heavy Support etc than shuffle through cards that won't be in order after the first turn I used them?

 

Well...

 

This is just you taking the piss, right?

Why would you bring cards for units you don't have?  And why would you change your order of cards?

Just looking for reasons to be skeptical.  Laughable.

 

  

2 hours ago, tzeentch9 said:

In a 2000pt game you could need 9 cards without trying hard, plus the couple you need for the army. That’s a lot to visually scan each time you can’t remember something. Some armies don’t have a lot of datasheets, some have loads. You could easily get to a dozen plus with gsc 

 

In a 2000pt games of 9th edition, you gotta bring the whole book. That's, automatically, way more to scan than the cards ever will be.

This is another person in search for a problem with this change without thinking any bit logically about what the change does.

Edited March 23, 2023 by DemonGSides

[Scribe]

3 hours ago, tzeentch9 said:

In a 2000pt game you could need 9 cards without trying hard, plus the couple you need for the army. That’s a lot to visually scan each time you can’t remember something. Some armies don’t have a lot of datasheets, some have loads. You could easily get to a dozen plus with gsc 

 

Maybe we also return to small games as the standard? 1500-1750.

 

One can dream.

[Captain Idaho]

I'm not sure why you're so hostile, but no, it's a practical way at looking at card based games.

 

Unless you got extra space to lay out all your cards, you put them in an order. If I need one mid way through, I go through the cards and put it to the top. They're now out of order. When I need another card, I do the same and the order is further mixed up.

 

I'm happy to hear from some Frater here that they've played this method before and do find ways round it. That's reassuring. My organisational skills aren't great, so I like using a baseline book generally, that is consistent and I can thumb quickly through the pages to where I need to go.

 

They did say they're still releasing Codex books which is great for the likes of me. But I don't see how the cards will make things much quicker still, though as I said a moment ago, it sounds like some folk have a system.

 

But does that make the game super quick or will I have to wait for my mate to sit there and thumb through his cards in practice. I'm a take skeptical on that.

[Stealth_Hobo]

4 minutes ago, Scribe said:

 

Maybe we also return to small games as the standard? 1500-1750.

 

One can dream.

My hope is that the game would scale well for different point sizes without heavy house-ruling. Most of my gaming nowadays is smaller sized games and when 10th ed. comes around I don't want to hear any comments how the game is only balanced for 2000 points.