Wh40k 10th Edition Rules changes

[Scribe]

Just now, Stealth_Hobo said:

My hope is that the game would scale well for different point sizes without heavy house-ruling. Most of my gaming nowadays is smaller sized games and when 10th ed. comes around I don't want to hear any comments how the game is only balanced for 2000 points. 

 

Its up to GW how that gets done I'm afraid.

 

If they outright state 'the game is best balanced at 1500 points' then that will be the matched play standard.

[Halandaar]

I am afraid I absolutely cannot understand how flipping through 70-odd redundant pages of Codex to find the "11-13" specific datasheets you need is supposed to be faster than flipping through the exact 11-13 cards that you brought because they relate to your specific army selection.

[Karhedron]

4 minutes ago, Halandaar said:

I am afraid I absolutely cannot understand how flipping through 70-odd redundant pages of Codex to find the "11-13" specific datasheets you need is supposed to be faster than flipping through the exact 11-13 cards that you brought because they relate to your specific army selection.

 

And they put Stratagems, Psychic Powers and WLTs in different parts of the books. I am constantly flipping back and forth and it does slow the game down.  I hold a lot of knowledge in my head but I also play 4 different factions so I can't memorise everything. Basic weapons and stats, sure. Relics and stratagems and how they interact? Not so reliably.

[Captain Idaho]

Well you wouldn't flip through the background section, just the datasheet section.

 

Let's be honest though, it's fairly irrelevant as we just use Battlescribe anyway right?

 

Which means the new cards makes zero difference to mental load or streamlining. 

[Beaky Brigade]

12 minutes ago, Halandaar said:

I am afraid I absolutely cannot understand how flipping through 70-odd redundant pages of Codex to find the "11-13" specific datasheets you need is supposed to be faster than flipping through the exact 11-13 cards that you brought because they relate to your specific army selection.

You could lay them out along the table (space allowing) and organise them in a logical way, perhaps even removing them or turning them over if a unit is destroyed. Admittedly having the cards in a pile won't be much quicker then a book, aside from not containing information for units you're not taking. 

 

The main question about the cards is how quickly before they go out of date with the constant FAQs and errata GW publish these days, not to mention typos and errors.

I've enjoyed using cards with with Aeronautica, though that is a much simpler game and has a much smaller choice of forces.

Edited March 23, 2023 by Beaky Brigade

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Hopefully the app will be improved so more players will feel inclined to use it. It’s a great tool even now for looking up strats and such… much easier than flipping through a codex.

[Kallas]

6 minutes ago, Beaky Brigade said:

The main question about the cards is how quickly before they go out of date with the constant FAQs and errata GW publish these days, not to mention typos and errors.

Yeah, this is why I stopped buying the Stratagem card packs, but I do like having a cheat sheet of my units and useful Stratagems. I think I used gamedatacards for the last tourny I went to (Goonhammer Open in Nottingham last year) to pack in small cards for about 12 different units onto one sheet of A4 paper, and then a second page with Stratagems.

 

Much better than flicking through a Codex or scrolling on Battlescribe, and because I'd modified them to cut out useless stuff/add in useful stuff (eg, the Relic rules on that character's profile) it was definitely up-to-date.

[MARK0SIAN]

Some of the changes announced sound good (less lethal, higher toughness, less stratagems). 
 

However, not a single one of the changes will matter if armies are still going to live and die by things like their secondary objectives. Until we see more details on the missions and scoring I don’t think I can summon up much enthusiasm for the edition as a whole. 

[Halandaar]

8 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

Well you wouldn't flip through the background section, just the datasheet section.

 

The datasheet section for generic Space Marines is, no joke, 58 pages long and obviously the number of included datasheets (98) doesn't include the new units in Agastus and is going to increase even further when new units arrive with 10th.

 

13 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

Let's be honest though, it's fairly irrelevant as we just use Battlescribe anyway right?

 

I don't because I dislike the way it presents information. But if your point is "I just cherry pick the rules for the units I'm using to make it easier for myself" then that's sort of a point in favour of cards (or battlescribe in your case) and against Codexes as reference tools anyway.

[FelipeFlops]

The benefit I can see is it now becomes much easier to balance individual problematic weapons. Thunder Hammer on a Jump Pack Captain too strong? Well we can tweak it, without affecting every Thunder Hammer unit in the game. Gives them something other than points in their balance chest, which frankly was one of the struggles of 9th.

 

I personally think this is a non-issue, give everyone a few weeks after release, and I expect people will have memorised everything that may differ and will realise they were worrying about nothing. The cards sound like a great idea.

Edited March 23, 2023 by FelipeFlops

[OttoVonAwesome]

The good part is you just bring printouts of the datasheets so you only bring a little duotang or binder or something instead of lugging the book around.

[Zoatibix]

I also play Stormcast in AOS which means dozens of pages to have to flick back and forth through since I no longer remember things so well. The warscrolls are useful.

 

My only issue with them has been that rather models with a lot of rules being double-sided they are a fold-out format.

 

But my concerns is firstly obtaining the card packs for popular armies. Then that typos or rules changes may lead to them being out of date very quickly.

Edited March 23, 2023 by Zoatibix

[Arikel]

With the faction rules being supposedly 2 pages or less, I don’t think we will need to worry overmuch about faction specific objectives, stratagems or relics either.

Edited March 23, 2023 by Arikel
Grammar

[Captain Idaho]

16 minutes ago, Halandaar said:

I don't because I dislike the way it presents information. But if your point is "I just cherry pick the rules for the units I'm using to make it easier for myself" then that's sort of a point in favour of cards (or battlescribe in your case) and against Codexes as reference tools anyway.

 

No the point I'm making from the beginning is the game isn't streamlined by using Battlescribe or cards necessarily. Cards do exist for everything but datasheets now (I presume Warlord Traits etc will still exist but who knows) and Battlescribe exists already as a sort of digital reference point, yet despite that the mental load is excessive anyway.

 

[Emperor Ming]

I'm not exactly enthralled about the new datasheets

 

and how much some stuff like psychic looks like its going to be scaled back

 

But I'm open to change after the craziness of 9th

[OttoVonAwesome]

12 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

 

No the point I'm making from the beginning is the game isn't streamlined by using Battlescribe or cards necessarily. Cards do exist for everything but datasheets now (I presume Warlord Traits etc will still exist but who knows) and Battlescribe exists already as a sort of digital reference point, yet despite that the mental load is excessive anyway.

 

Warlord traits aren't going anywhere. You just get less of them. 10th seems to be taking alot from Heresy 2.0's streamline effort. Subfaction rules, Warlord traits, relics and Strategems all on one page 3-6 of each.

 

12 hours ago, Emperor Ming said:

I'm not exactly enthralled about the new datasheets

 

and how much some stuff like psychic looks like its going to be scaled back

 

But I'm open to change after the craziness of 9th

The psychic stuff will likely be just fine. You just use them in the phase they are apropriate too. Perils and stuff ain't going anywhere. I think they are just pulling 30k's psyker rules and porting them over.

[Mechanicus Tech-Support]

As an admech player who had to sit out for an entire phase because no psykers, I'm kind of glad it's getting scaled back

[Blindhamster]

doesn't look like it's being scaled back, just moved to be done during other phases as appropriate.

Powers are apparently going to be on datasheets, so i suspect smite will be a ranged attack option, something like sanguine sword would be a melee one etc

[DemonGSides]

1 hour ago, Captain Idaho said:

I'm not sure why you're so hostile, but no, it's a practical way at looking at card based games.

 

Unless you got extra space to lay out all your cards, you put them in an order. If I need one mid way through, I go through the cards and put it to the top. They're now out of order. When I need another card, I do the same and the order is further mixed up.

 

I'm happy to hear from some Frater here that they've played this method before and do find ways round it. That's reassuring. My organisational skills aren't great, so I like using a baseline book generally, that is consistent and I can thumb quickly through the pages to where I need to go.

 

They did say they're still releasing Codex books which is great for the likes of me. But I don't see how the cards will make things much quicker still, though as I said a moment ago, it sounds like some folk have a system.

 

But does that make the game super quick or will I have to wait for my mate to sit there and thumb through his cards in practice. I'm a take skeptical on that.

 

There's no hostility besides bewilderment over "I have less things to deal with and that means it's going to be harder to deal with" that you and tzeentch9 keep going on about. 

 

How big do you think these cards are going to be that you can't fan them out in such a way that you can see the example picture of each unit in the top right corner?  Like, do you think you're getting 8.5x11 inch full pieces of paper?  How is this hard for you to visualize when they've given us an example already?

 

It sounds like you haven't thought about this beyond "I don't like new things" and that's why everyone's pushing back against you.  Because even the slightest thought process about this shows how much easier it's going to be than lugging around MULTIPLE BOOKS like we have to now.

Is it a perfect system?  No.  No one ever said as much.  Is it going to be a less unwieldy system than "Bring your SM Codex, your BA Supplement, plus This Campaign Book, and also This White Dwarf"?

Uhh, duh.  Yes.

"But does that make the game super quick or will I have to wait for my mate to sit there and thumb through his cards in practice. I'm a take skeptical on that."

What the is going on in your games right now that this is a legitimate concern to you?

 

Edited March 23, 2023 by DemonGSides

[Halandaar]

17 minutes ago, OttoVonAwesome said:

The psychic stuff will likely be just fine. You just use them in the phase they are apropriate too. Perils and stuff ain't going anywhere. I think they are just pulling 30k's psyker rules and porting them over.

 

I think because it was stated that psychic powers are going to be on the datacard, the presumption is that psykers will have a much smaller pool of powers to choose from than they do currently simply because it would be quite unwieldy to list all 6 powers from a discipline* plus smite on the card.

 

*And this presumes access to only one discipline anyway, Farseers and various SM Librarians may have access to two.

Edited March 23, 2023 by Halandaar

[jaxom]

26 minutes ago, Halandaar said:

 

I think because it was stated that psychic powers are going to be on the datacard, the presumption is that psykers will have a much smaller pool of powers to choose from than they do currently simply because it would be quite unwieldy to list all 6 powers from a discipline* plus smite on the card.

 

*And this presumes access to only one discipline anyway, Farseers and various SM Librarians may have access to two.

I'd expect two powers for a normal psyker, three for a special character, and four or five for a Primarch/Greater Daemon. Universal smite is gone, with only some psykers getting a Shooting-style power.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

As a keen Titanicus player, the idea of having all of my units stats and weapons on reference cards sounds ideal. Granted AT usually plays on a 4*4, so that you have the 2*4 space for both players terminals, but they are about A4 size each, so smaller cards will be ideal, particularly since the board size changes in 9th. Nowadays I find most games are actually played on a 6*4 board, with the 44*60" playspace marked out, leaving a nice margin to line up these cards.

 

I also share the bewilderment at Idaho and Tzeentch's attitude to the cards. As someone who rarely plays 40k, and needs to take Both codex SM and the BT supplement to play, I spend an inordinate amount of time flipping through the Codex particularly just checking the rules on something edge case, like the reductor pistol on an Apothecary, and I can lose what feels like an age flicking through the seemingly infinite number of data sheets in that book. Comparing that, to just having cards, and thinking it will take the same, if not more time, is frankly laughable IMO.

Edited March 23, 2023 by Sword Brother Adelard

[Shield-Captain]

I am still confused about “subfaction rules.” My Biel-Tan Eldar will play slightly differently to Ulthwé Eldar or is that part of the “1-in-1-out” philosophy? 
 

Also a little sad to see that codex creep will still exist so army’s with codexes are the haves and army’s without are the have nots.

 

Otherwise very excited. Glad to see that strange 50 page “leak” is DOA.

[Captain Idaho]

The bloat in the 9th edition game has nothing to do with playing with reference cards or a Codex.

 

If you rarely play 40K, then maybe you don't have the understanding of what bloats the game. Certainly not enough to be calling people's opinions laughable in light of your expertise.

 

Show me what will reduce the drag on a game, or a streamline it sufficiently for players who aren't experts that can play easily, I'll happily embrace it.

[Brother Captain Vakarian]

4 minutes ago, Shield-Captain said:

I am still confused about “subfaction rules.” My Biel-Tan Eldar will play slightly differently to Ulthwé Eldar or is that part of the “1-in-1-out” philosophy? 

My rough understanding of that is that, yes, Biel-Tan would play slightly differently to Ulthwé, but you will have a whole different page of subfaction rules that is titled “Biel-Tan” instead of “Ulthwé” or “Eldar.” But that’s partly a guess based on what they said in the WarCom article and the summaries others have provided here. 
 

Maybe it’s easier to say what I am expecting using Space Marines as an example. I am estimating, with some confidence, that there will be a generic “Space Marines” page of faction traits. “Ultramarines” will retain most of those rules but change a few, and will use their own single page of subfaction rules instead of adding to the generic Space Marines faction sheet. “Black Templars,” as another example, would likely trade out more of the generic “Space Marines” faction rules in the “1-1” swap. But again, no extra sources added—still an 1-1 swap of the generic Space Marine rules. And I’m hoping custom subfactions will still be an option… but time will tell. Again, this is all a guess, but it sounds like what they mean, and that process will largely apply to every faction and subfaction. 

 

I’m thrilled that it seems like much of the 50-page “leak” has been discredited, Valrak’s source(s) seem to have been largely on the money, and 10th seems to be shaping up to be a more streamlined game that retains the “bones” of 40K as we knew it. (And Crusade appears to be staying!!!)