Wh40k 10th Edition Faction Rules

[phandaal]

18 hours ago, Nephaston said:

Technically this also seems like a "go for it" for having different paintjobs in one army like Valraks last wall project.

Which does seem very fluffy for a good chunk of battles.

 

An "official" stance from GW is fine, but people who build divergent armies (i.e. Boxes/Barrels = Deathskulls, Grot/Squat Guard, etc.) have already been doing so for decades.

 

Regarding Space Marines - been playing this game since the 90s, and the number of times I have seen a "multi-Chapter" Space Marine army in person is roughly zero, plus or minus zero, carry the zero. However, I do not think that is due to Games Workshop not giving people an explicit thumbs-up. It is just not how the vast majority of Space Marine players choose to build their armies.

[Rain]

25 minutes ago, phandaal said:

 

An "official" stance from GW is fine, but people who build divergent armies (i.e. Boxes/Barrels = Deathskulls, Grot/Squat Guard, etc.) have already been doing so for decades.

 

Regarding Space Marines - been playing this game since the 90s, and the number of times I have seen a "multi-Chapter" Space Marine army in person is roughly zero, plus or minus zero, carry the zero. However, I do not think that is due to Games Workshop not giving people an explicit thumbs-up. It is just not how the vast majority of Space Marine players choose to build their armies.

People enjoy getting into the lore, aesthetic, and “feel” of their faction, and this is diluted when they running a soup army. You are no longer playing a force of raucous drunken Vikings, or crusading knights, or sneaky special forces types (all IN SPEHSS) but a bland mix of all of the above with no overarching feel or identity. 

[acrozatarim]

My idealised Blood Angel force remains the one from, I think it was White Dwarf 165? The first 2nd ed battle report.

 

Give me the opportunity to run something like that without it being a bad idea due to lack of synergy with subfaction rules, or because regular troops just suck, and I'll be very happy.

[Blindhamster]

36 minutes ago, acrozatarim said:

My idealised Blood Angel force remains the one from, I think it was White Dwarf 165? The first 2nd ed battle report.

 

Give me the opportunity to run something like that without it being a bad idea due to lack of synergy with subfaction rules, or because regular troops just suck, and I'll be very happy.

two tactical squads, a rhino, two devastators squads, a terminator squad, thudd gun and some characters? 
 

old school indeed, but I agree, I’ve always loved blood angels and that love similarly stems from a time before the excessive assault squad meme they had for a while 

[acrozatarim]

54 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

two tactical squads, a rhino, two devastators squads, a terminator squad, thudd gun and some characters? 
 

old school indeed, but I agree, I’ve always loved blood angels and that love similarly stems from a time before the excessive assault squad meme they had for a while 

 

It was something like that, though I didn't recall the Thudd Gun - will have to see if I've got the issue in the pile of WDs I retrieved from my dad a few years back. It was the first ever White Dwarf I got, complete with free plastic marine from the 2nd ed release on the front cover!

[spessmarine]

4 hours ago, brother_b said:

I’m concerned we’re going to have “Trope-locked” detachments:

 

What I mean is Blood Angels get Red Thirst but only if they take X amount of jump troops; White Scars will need bikers; hell Stygies VIII will need specific number of rangers, etc.
 

Feeling a little wary. I wonder how restrictive the detachments will be, how much real flavor can you get. I’m hopefully optimistic because I like the look of the simplicity. I’m hoping for that flavor though.

 

I’m also hoping for trope-less abilities and faction abilities.

 

For instance I hope Blood Angel specific rules aren’t tied to only a jump pack army. I hope I can craft other unique blood angels armies like using dreads, termites, etc. Not to say that I don’t like jump pack BA, just hope we have more flexibility and still access to special rules.

 

Another example would be bike army white scars. Unfortunately bike units are meh and my army has been mostly assault infantry.

 

This not a piss and moan too it’s hard for me to explain my feelings. I’m extremely hyped for the new edition just  high hopes for my favorite hobby.

Yeah, it'd be annoying if the only faction flavouring is flanderized detachments. White Scars? Oops all bikes or nothing.

I'd hope that the faction abilities follow line with HH legion trait. Simple, fitting, but not pigeonholing.

White Scars move a bit faster, DA Wings each have a buff that applies to them, Salamanders are more durable against heat weapons and so forth. The Rites are where the restrictions for list building get pronounced but you don't have to be locked into it to play that legion.
 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

58 minutes ago, spessmarine said:

Yeah, it'd be annoying if the only faction flavouring is flanderized detachments. White Scars? Oops all bikes or nothing.

I'd hope that the faction abilities follow line with HH legion trait. Simple, fitting, but not pigeonholing.

White Scars move a bit faster, DA Wings each have a buff that applies to them, Salamanders are more durable against heat weapons and so forth. The Rites are where the restrictions for list building get pronounced but you don't have to be locked into it to play that legion.
 

Right?

and this is another issue, BA don’t care how they get close to the enemy(though they do prefer flight) so bikes and speeders are still a good way to have BA vibe in an army.

 

should they be as good with them as WS or Raven wing? No, but it’s still pretty thematic in my view.

[jaxom]

19 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Do you have examples? Because the main examples I can think of are all major massive campaigns, like armeggedon, and DoB, the fight against the beast where the last wall protocol was activated, etc.

 

most battles aren’t that massive or important enough to justify that level of resources.

 

and we have to remember that most battles in BL novels are not typical in the first place, nor are the battles in books any where near a large number of battles that happen in a single year in the 40k universe.

Off the top of my head:

- Rogue Trader Crusader Councils

- Inquisitorial Compliances/Purges

- The Cadian Primigenitor Honor Company

- The Macharian Honor Guard

- Conquest of Balhut (Balmut?)

- Indomitus Crusade Fleet splinters

It’s the opposite of big battles with thousands of marines. A few chapters are sworn or pacted to a place or person, contribute a squad or two each (often without knowing who else got called in). The largest example I could think of of the top of my head was the Honor Company (100 marines from 10 different chapters). 

 

EDIT: The above was qued in my phone and didn't post for like 9 hours. The below is extra

  

1 hour ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

should they be as good with them as WS or Raven wing? No, but it’s still pretty thematic in my view.

I'm hoping the White Scars get some unique bikers. That would let them be better bikers, regardless of anything else.

Edited April 9, 2023 by jaxom

[ThePenitentOne]

6 hours ago, Rain said:

People enjoy getting into the lore, aesthetic, and “feel” of their faction, and this is diluted when they running a soup army. You are no longer playing a force of raucous drunken Vikings, or crusading knights, or sneaky special forces types (all IN SPEHSS) but a bland mix of all of the above with no overarching feel or identity. 

 

Hard disagree. If you like getting into your faction's lore, who you like working with and who you don't like working with are a part of your faction's identity, and playing as part of a combined force is a way to explore those themes. Now in a Marine Alliance of Chapters, there may not be as much diversity as in some other match-ups.

 

Ninth ed. created both Torchbearer armies (admech/custodes/marines) and Armies of Faith (Sisters/guard/marines) and both were awesome to play. Agents of the Imperium rules being rolled out to units instead of just individuals is another step in the right direction.

 

 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

2 hours ago, jaxom said:

Off the top of my head:

- Rogue Trader Crusader Councils

- Inquisitorial Compliances/Purges

- The Cadian Primigenitor Honor Company

- The Macharian Honor Guard

- Conquest of Balhut (Balmut?)

- Indomitus Crusade Fleet splinters

It’s the opposite of big battles with thousands of marines. A few chapters are sworn or pacted to a place or person, contribute a squad or two each (often without knowing who else got called in). The largest example I could think of of the top of my head was the Honor Company (100 marines from 10 different chapters). 

 

EDIT: The above was qued in my phone and didn't post for like 9 hours. The below is extra

  

I'm hoping the White Scars get some unique bikers. That would let them be better bikers, regardless of anything else.

Yeah you gave 6 examples when a single in universe 24 hour period likely has 600 or 6000 battles, so I’d call that fairly rare.

Edited April 10, 2023 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[spessmarine]

9 hours ago, Bradeh said:

 

Many codices and narrative books will have pages like this.

 

 

"Peripatetic"
GW sure expands my vocabulary a bit. Got me using words I never seem to read otherwise, like perfidy/perfidious.
 

14 hours ago, ZeroWolf said:

I think there can be some examples that make sense like no obliterators in a Thousand Son force...is there any Tzeentch demon engines?

 

13 hours ago, Cactus said:

Yes. They're all flyers. Firelords, doomwings and silver towers.

 

https://wargamingworkshop.com/sci-fi-collection/epic-armageddon/chaos/chaos-thousand-sons-cult/

This is a problem that ties back to the whole no model, no rules principle of GW. Factions end up with anemic rosters that could be padded with stuff that absolutely exists in fluff, someone just needs to convert it. But we can't have that, buy more goats.

[jaxom]

24 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Yeah you gave 6 examples when a single in universe 24 hour period likely 600 or 6000 battles, so I’d call that fairly rare.

The Warhammer 40,000 setting is large and has a lot of stories to tell. I think it's a waste of time to track down and cite all the times Space Marines have acted cooperatively at the individual and squad level. I think having lore rarity impact army building in a game can quickly lead to reduction absurdity. There's less than one Space Marine per world of the Imperium, but I think it would be silly to insist starting every game with a percentile roll to see if that's the battle they show up for.

[phandaal]

1 hour ago, ThePenitentOne said:

 

Hard disagree. If you like getting into your faction's lore, who you like working with and who you don't like working with are a part of your faction's identity, and playing as part of a combined force is a way to explore those themes. Now in a Marine Alliance of Chapters, there may not be as much diversity as in some other match-ups.

 

Ninth ed. created both Torchbearer armies (admech/custodes/marines) and Armies of Faith (Sisters/guard/marines) and both were awesome to play. Agents of the Imperium rules being rolled out to units instead of just individuals is another step in the right direction.

 

 

 

This is why arguing about it from a lore perspective is pointless. There are indisputably people out there who want to make coalition armies.

 

However, 99.99% of Space Marine players are not making a Skittles-colored Torchbearer force. (Source: I made it up.) This is not something that was in need of addressing in the rules. People have been handling these rare edge case armies just fine for decades.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

3 minutes ago, jaxom said:

The Warhammer 40,000 setting is large and has a lot of stories to tell. I think it's a waste of time to track down and cite all the times Space Marines have acted cooperatively at the individual and squad level. I think having lore rarity impact army building in a game can quickly lead to reduction absurdity. There's less than one Space Marine per world of the Imperium, but I think it would be silly to insist starting every game with a percentile roll to see if that's the battle they show up for.

I’m just pointing out marines on their own are rare, which means multiple chapters working together on the battlefield is even more rare, so saying it’s common is not accurate 

[Noserenda]

Mixed armies certainly exist, ive seen plenty over the years, even built one myself back in second edition when they did a WD article promoting mixed chapter crusading forces. Its been discouraged or semi banned mechanically on and off over the years though so it tends to be something for narrative gamers, people re-creating forces from books or just enthusiasts of oddball or homebrew armies. 

Weirdly its something FW has repeatedly actively supported in Imperial Armour and 30k books, Shattered Legion forces being the peak of course! Long before that though, Istvaan scratch forces were at least as popular as some Legions in the Pre-official Heresy spaces. 

This really is a hobby that has such potential for people to break out and do cool, unique things and i like when GW explicitly supports that! :) 
 

[sitnam]

30 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

I’m just pointing out marines on their own are rare, which means multiple chapters working together on the battlefield is even more rare, so saying it’s common is not accurate

I think that's false equivalence. Just because Marines themselves are rare to see, doesn't mean it's rare for Marines to work together. Three of the events (Rogue Trader crusades, inquisitorial purges, and Indomitus ceusade fleets) that @jaxom listed aren't one off but semi-frequent occurrences Marines find themselves in.

 

[Rain]

9 minutes ago, Noserenda said:

Mixed armies certainly exist, ive seen plenty over the years, even built one myself back in second edition when they did a WD article promoting mixed chapter crusading forces. Its been discouraged or semi banned mechanically on and off over the years though so it tends to be something for narrative gamers, people re-creating forces from books or just enthusiasts of oddball or homebrew armies. 

Weirdly its something FW has repeatedly actively supported in Imperial Armour and 30k books, Shattered Legion forces being the peak of course! Long before that though, Istvaan scratch forces were at least as popular as some Legions in the Pre-official Heresy spaces. 

This really is a hobby that has such potential for people to break out and do cool, unique things and i like when GW explicitly supports that! :) 
 

I don’t think anyone is against allowing soup armies for those that really want them, as long as it cannot be a abused for gameplay advantage as it was in 6th, de facto killing mono armies that could not compete with soup BS. Eldar psykers casting their buff spells on Tau units was a blight on the game, though I admit this was a bit of an extreme case of soup.
 

So, if you want to play your marines all different colors, go for it, it’s your army; as long as you pick just one set of rules, and don’t pick and choose to negate the built in disadvantages or limitations of any one force.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

21 minutes ago, sitnam said:

I think that's false equivalence. Just because Marines themselves are rare to see, doesn't mean it's rare for Marines to work together. Three of the events (Rogue Trader crusades, inquisitorial purges, and Indomitus ceusade fleets) that @jaxom listed aren't one off but semi-frequent occurrences Marines find themselves in.

 

lets look at the example of crusades and purges. just because multiple chapters are involved in a crusade or a purge, does not mean that those chapters are sharing a battlefield or even a theater on a planet with each other. sure an indomitus crusade fleet may contain 5 chapters, but those 5 chapters are likely operating on separate planets within that fleet's AO. that fleet commander may require a more significant marine presence at a single planet or a single hive, thus a company from one chapter and a few squads from 2 or 3 others might converge on the same hive, or manufactorum, or whatever, but by all accounts, such things are very rare events.

i'm not saying that it doesn't happen, just that when it does happen it is rare, and its typically a dire situation. i'll use real world US navy as an example. i was on a destroyer and deployed to arabian gulf twice as part of a carrier battle group. when we got to the gulf we were under the 5th fleet command. there were several patrol craft, and minesweepers always deployed there, there were also MEU(groups of ships full of marines), subs, and other destroyers on independent operations in the area.

despite often operating in a carrier battle group we rarely did any operations, directly with the aircraft carrier. despite being under the same command umbrella for the theater we even more rarely operated directly with ships outside of our CBG. did it happen? yes of course, my second deployment we escorted subs through the suez canal like 5 or 6 times, and we had to rush to the defense of an LPD be charged by iranian attack boats, and assist an LHD with search and rescue operations for a marine that bailed out of an aircraft. taking all of those things together out of context sounds like we did a lot of operating with other ships right? well thats only 7 or 8 days of operating with ships outside of the CBG out of approximately 273 days of deployment. at least 200 of those deployment days i wouldn't see another US or even allied ship at all, let alone operate with them.

[jaxom]

@Inquisitor_Lensoven, wrong scale. Not talking about anything that big. Again, biggest example I gave was the Cadian Honor Company at 100 strong from 10 different chapters.  The rest are usually 10-50 Marines.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

10 minutes ago, jaxom said:

@Inquisitor_Lensoven, wrong scale. Not talking about anything that big. Again, biggest example I gave was the Cadian Honor Company at 100 strong from 10 different chapters.  The rest are usually 10-50 Marines.

That’s one single example. Again no one is saying that marines never work together but it is not remotely common outside of the death watch.

[sitnam]

13 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

or whatever, but by all accounts, such things are very rare events.

Under which accounts are these rare? I've can't recall any source saying that it's rare for different chapters to share a battlefield.  It seems to have often enough in the lore that id avoid calling it rare. Uncommon? Sure. Given that Marines often act as company size elements (one of which can turn the tide of a minor conflict), it does make sense for a task force  to spread it's resources. However, Marines are often called for very serious engagements or threats, which is where we often see multiple chapter elements. Ignore the big, universe defining conflicts, but those arguably a step below that such as Badab or the Damocles Crusade.

 

I'm not sure if they count as sharing a battlefield, but even the Vraks and Taros campaigns (which I argue as fairly minor fights) saw involvement from multiple chapters during the span of their campaigns

 

 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

9 minutes ago, sitnam said:

Under which accounts are these rare? I've can't recall any source saying that it's rare for different chapters to share a battlefield.  It seems to have often enough in the lore that id avoid calling it rare. Uncommon? Sure. Given that Marines often act as company size elements (one of which can turn the tide of a minor conflict), it does make sense for a task force  to spread it's resources. However, Marines are often called for very serious engagements or threats, which is where we often see multiple chapter elements. Ignore the big, universe defining conflicts, but those arguably a step below that such as Badab or the Damocles Crusade.

 

I'm not sure if they count as sharing a battlefield, but even the Vraks and Taros campaigns (which I argue as fairly minor fights) saw involvement from multiple chapters during the span of their campaigns

 

 

The lore where there are billions of planets with trillions of guards men, but we’ve only met a few hundred of them?

 

the lore that typically focuses only on the biggest and most sector defining theaters of war like DoB, armeggedon, etc?

 

how many imperial guard books or snippets reference battles where they see multiple chapters fighting together?

 

it’s like you don’t understand context or statistics.

Edited April 10, 2023 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[sitnam]

@Inquisitor_Lensoven Statistics don't answer this question; it was never denied it was rare to see Marines on a battlefield. But given the actual evidence we have, not supposition, it doesn't seem all that rare to see chapters alongside each other. I gave you examples that are absolutely not setting-defining battles. Taros and Vraks were both fairly backwater conflicts, yet multiple chapters showed up. Badab and Damocles were much wider focused, but not setting defining.

 

You can't hand wave away our examples because there are untold numbers of battles happening within the Imperium, because the key factor isn't the number of battles or how frequent Marines show up. It's how frequent do Marines work together. 

 

Edited April 10, 2023 by sitnam

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

18 minutes ago, sitnam said:

@Inquisitor_Lensoven Statistics don't answer this question; it was never denied it was rare to see Marines on a battlefield. But given the actual evidence we have, not supposition, it doesn't seem all that rare to see chapters alongside each other. I gave you examples that are absolutely not setting-defining battles. Taros and Vraks were both fairly backwater conflicts, yet multiple chapters showed up. Badab and Damocles were much wider focused, but not setting defining.

 

You can't hand wave away our examples because there are untold numbers of battles happening within the Imperium, because the key factor isn't the number of battles or how frequent Marines show up. It's how frequent do Marines work together. 

 

again you ignore context and statistics. no one said anything about setting defining, however i'd say damoclese was definitely setting defining since that's the conflict that introduced an entirely new faction iirc.

statistics definitionally is important here, because in statistics there are things called outliers, and taros and vraks are outliers if they were not of vital importance to a wider campaign or sector as a whole.

marines on a battle field is rare, marines from more than one chapter on a battlefield by definition has to be even more rare.

edit
brushing up on the siege of vraks, it was a freaking armory world, that makes it very important to the sector if not the wider imperium.

point being a single squad of marines isn't being sent to fight over some sparsely inhabited moon with minimal industry or natural resources, let alone multiple squads of marines from different chapters.

Edited April 10, 2023 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Lord_Ikka]

 

=][= Keep the thread on topic- this is a discussion about the new faction rules, not about lore-based army composition. =][=