Wh40k 10th Edition Faction Rules

[OttoVonAwesome]

6 minutes ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

I'm not sure how when we only have one faction's rule we can think it's over powered. If the next faction's rule is +1LD (-1LD?) or something stupid I'll join the complaining, but for now let's enjoy the ride of child like wonder waiting for 10th.

I think the problem is the drip feed. It drives everyone to madness. The soulless beancounters at GW think it's good marketing building hype and all that but we all know that's not really the case. Deep dives, discussions, Beta rulesets, this is what other devs do not GW. They will milk the hell out of this till everyone stops caring and the new edition finally gets released and instead of being excited for it we just feel a collective sigh of relief that it's finally over.

[Orange Knight]

I will personally explain everything by Monday the 1st of May if GW haven't done so already. We don't have too long to wait.

[OttoVonAwesome]

And then we will identify every flaw in the ruleset all at once and GW will act cuaght off guard by obvious errors in judgement make a serious of terrible mistakes every 6 months and new codex to balance the game without adressing or even exacerbating the core issues cough 9th cough or we may actually get lucky. Yeah I'm down let's do the childlike wonder thing.

[Orange Knight]

Well, we shouldn't expect the game to be perfect either.

10th Edition will have it's own set of flaws that we'll have to overcome.

 

The sheer unit and faction variety of 40k means that a perfect ruleset is impossible to achieve. 

[Cleon]

For me the key is GW getting 'What is a faction, what is a sub faction' right. I really tried to care about the plague company rules for my Death Guard or the Brotherhood rules for my Grey Knights, but I just couldn't, it became a game mechanic thing because I don't see their identity as differing at that level. On the other hands I have both a large Blood Angels force and a small Space Wolf force and it is both important to me that there is a difference between them, but not a difference between my Blood Angels squad based on which company I put them in when painting them.

[ZeroWolf]

The rules interactions of all the factions/subfractions/wargear etc more or less cement that hence the simplification process they've undertaken.

 

I don't mind the current marketing process, and I suspect that it'll be more effective than what we realise.

[Orange Knight]

I think that subfaction variety can be achieved with unit selection, and not necessarily through a set of wildly varying core rules.

 

For example, a thematic Blood Angels style detachment could see Assault Squads as a battleline option, whilst slower moving or less aggressive units are limited. 

Iron Hands, on the opposite spectrum could have something like the durable but slow Centurions be a Battleline option, and be encouraged to take vehicles and Dreads whilst bikers and speeders are limited in number.

 

There has already been a mention that certain detachments will limit particular units. I expect that the "Eternal Crusade Strike-Force" will not allow Librarians.

Edited April 8, 2023 by Orange Knight

[Blindhamster]

22 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

I think that subfaction variety can be achieved with unit selection, and not necessarily through a set of wildly varying core rules.

 

For example, a thematic Blood Angels style detachment could see Assault Squads as a battleline option, whilst slower moving or less aggressive units are limited. 

Iron Hands, on the opposite spectrum could have something like the durable but slow Centurions be a Battleline option, and be encouraged to take vehicles and Dreads whilst bikers and speeders are limited in number.

 

There has already been a mention that certain detachments will limit particular units. I expect that the "Eternal Crusade Strike-Force" will not allow Librarians.

 

no.

 

Multiple blood angel players keep telling you this. We don't necessarily want "assault squad heavy" detachments. Blood Angels do not HAVE more assaults squads than other chapters. They're a Codex compliant chapter. The "extra" assault units they get come from death company, sanguinary guard and at one point honour guard. The only thing that is non-standard about blood angels assault squads, is they regularly carry melta weapons and if units in a company are under strength, its rarely the assault squads.

 

So no. The idea is a bad one

 

Frankly, the only way I can see them handling Blood Angels and Space wolves well, is via the Oath of Moment being replaced with separate rules to represent the flaw and the canis helix. Templars should also replace it with Vows probably.

[Orange Knight]

But then every other sub faction should also receive unique rules.

 

The Iron Hands are very different from a generic Marine, with more bionics and mechanical replacements.

 

And this doesn't just apply to Marines, but every other main faction also.

[Blindhamster]

4 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

But then every other sub faction should also receive unique rules.

 

The Iron Hands are very different from a generic Marine, with more bionics and mechanical replacements.

 

And this doesn't just apply to Marines, but every other main faction also.

 

The difference, is that many marines have bionics across most chapters. It's the same as something like Ravenguard or Imperial fists - they have cool lore, but they ultimately are focused on specific tactics and units and always have been.

 

The point is that some chapters have fundamental differences, the wolves and blood angels have always fallen into that category, you'll notice I didn't call out dark angels, because their special units combined with a 1st company or biker detachment would cover deathwing and ravenwing very well.

 

The thing is, some subfactions for some armies simply work and fight differently to their parent faction. Biel tan is represented by lots of aspect warriors (sword wind host), therefore a detachment covers it, siam hann are represented by huge wings of jetbikes, so again a detachment covers it. Both are regularly depicted as also fighting using normal tactics and troop types as other eldar, they don't have some fundamental differences that separates them from eachother. Ynnead eldar probably SHOULD have a different army ability from other eldar. Same is probably true of corsairs honestly. For chaos marines again, some legion are so different that they should have a specific rule instead of a generic one.

[FormelyKnownAsSmashyPants]

I love all this. It's pretty cool. I do feel disappointed that Chapter Tactics are gone, they could have kept them and each got its core faction trait and a subfaction trait. I get they want streamline, but having one faction rule and one subfaction rule still fits the minimalist approach I think they're going for. Your marine army would have Path of the Moment and then Red Thirst, Grim Resolve or Righteous Zeal for example. I do love the minimalist approach and the game will be better for it. However, one special rule per subfaction would be perfectly acceptable and fit within the new model of game they're going for. The only thing I'm thinking might happen is that named special characters may confer ChapterTactics as they did I 5th ed. 

[Special Officer Doofy]

43 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

The point is that some chapters have fundamental differences, the wolves and blood angels have always fallen into that category

 

No, the point is that early on before there even was followings and fans of each chapter when the game was still young GW put a few chapters in their own books and gave them their own units and told them they are extra special, and you don't want to not be extra special anymore. We get it. I hope you get your own book and GW gives you everything you desire because you picked up the angels of death codex instead of the space marine one in the 90's.

[sandrorect]

Hello i am new here.

 

Do you have tink that a faction can have A LOT OF of detachaments?

 

And when a I said a lot, i said something like this:

 

Faction: Space marines, rule Oaths of omens.

 

Detachments:

Gladius task force.

1º ultramarine company.

1º Blood angel company.

1º Imperial fist company.

Deathwing

.

.

.

Utramarine battle company

Blood angel battle company

Dark angel battle company.

Imperial fist battle company

.

.

.

Black templar Crusader foce 

Space wolf grand company

.

.

.

10º ultramarine company

 Etc, etc, etc.

 

And all this detachments can have the actual chapter rules of 9º (and more)

 

Yes, GW said that de color of our models don´t limit our detachment election, but they said "very rarely tie" that in GW words means: "the colors of your models does´t care, except when we said other things"

 

 

[Blindhamster]

21 minutes ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

 

No, the point is that early on before there even was followings and fans of each chapter when the game was still young GW put a few chapters in their own books and gave them their own units and told them they are extra special, and you don't want to not be extra special anymore. We get it. I hope you get your own book and GW gives you everything you desire because you picked up the angels of death codex instead of the space marine one in the 90's.

actually comes down to over thirty years of lore where the chapters defining feature is the flaw, it isn’t assault marines. 
 

also, I’d quite like the flaw to have an actual negative again (like third edition). 

[Zoatibix]

I far prefer the drip feed to the Bad Old Days of GW announcing something the week before it releases.

 

As long as they play test every new codex against the first two of three codexes of this edition we might see some decent balance. 

[Orange Knight]

I imagine that when the Marine codex drops there will be more than a dozen deatachments, each with unique enhancements and strats.

 

Ideally they won't be too restrictive. It will be better for players and the game if a single list can vary It's playstyle based on detachment choice.

[Lord_Ikka]

In all likelihood we will see something like the following, when the codices come out-

 

SM codex - Containing all the rules for codex-complaint chapters, with a couple of specific detachments to theme your forces around. No longer sub-factions for Ultra/IF/CF/RG/IH/Sallies, but hopefully some sort of enhancers with the detachments that allow for some sort of latitude towards themed armies.

DA/BA/BT/SW codices - Whether a combination of chapters (DA/BA for Angels of Death for example), or supplements for each is unknown. I can see GW doing one of two things- either replacing the standard SM faction rule (Oath of the Moment I believe) for a unique one for each divergent chapter, or keeping it and then giving each divergent some sort of alternative detachment that represents their "general" fighting style. 

 

Given that right now it looks like some form of SM is going to be paired with Nids for the 10th box, we'll get to see what sort of rules/detachments/whatever that GW will be leading with soon. I don't think we will see the amount of variety we had in 8th/9th, where every army (bar Harlies in 9th) had at least 6 distinct sub-factions. So, unfortunately some sub-factions will go away- but we don't know what will be lost or gained until the codices come out. 

[Orange Knight]

The Blood Angels and Space Wolves are arguably the only chapters I would consider to be a true special case because of their genetic deviation and unique mutated units, such as the Death Company or the Wulfen, and this is only due to the lore.

 

The Dark Angels have fancy names for their companies but ultimately are very much a codex compliant chapter that has access to some more exotic wargear across a few units. The Black Templars are probably more divergent within the lore but again, I think both could be codex chapters with additional options.

 

Ultimately I'm not convinced that the rules between chapters should be divergent at all beyond some enhancements and unique stratagems. Perhaps the Blood Angels do produce slightly more close combat specialists at a given time within the lore, but again, are they better close combat fighters than the Dark Angels on average? I don't think so.

 

Dante would not throw his men into close combat against a foe that would be dealt with better at range. Just as Marneus Calgar would not sit back and shoot if a foe could swiftly be obliterated with a frontal assault from his 1st company.

 

Having the ability to chose detachments for your army that can operate in a way that favours one method or another is actually more lore accurate in my eyes. At the extremes the chapters will be more divergent, but as a whole they will be very similar. I think enhancements and strats, alongside unique characters can work well to illustrate the extremes.

[Subtleknife]

Personally, I hope that for the first year we just have a codex SM. Get the balance for that right along with the other armies. 

 

From a business perspective I don't see why GW wouldn't release supplements for all first founding if they have the slots available in their release schedule. 

 

 

 

[Marshal Reinhard]

26 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

The Black Templars are probably more divergent within the lore but again, I think both could be codex chapters with additional options.

This sounds extremely heretical, but I guess what you're saying we don't have foul mutants within our ranks, so we're essentially normal. I guess I can get behind that. Keeping my eye on you though 

 

Also, we also have to have some options removed, namely any variant of witches.

[Blindhamster]

You’re talking about optimisation vs flavour. As a blood angel player I still use plenty of shooty units, I use hellblasters, I used to use devastators, I use sternguard etc.

 

just because the blood angel chapter rule has always been that they hit harder (and through most editions faster) has never stopped me using those units. I don’t need my army to give me a bonus to shooting for that. My favourite army rule for blood angels was third ed where there was a much stronger narrative tie in to the rules, chance to have marines fall to the rage and increase the size of the death company at the cost of models from other units and chance to have units move toward enemies rather than stand still, but coming with hitting that bit harder in combat was interesting. It had flavour to it.

 

nothing stops you using any unit as any chapter (save a few very specific restrictions)

 

anyway, it’s my opinion, it’s neither wrong or right, I think the idea of detachments being how you represent chapters is terrible personally, especially if it does tie into specific units. But I’m sure some would enjoy it so that’s that! 
 

regardless of how it winds up working, I’ll continue to love and play blood angels I’m sure :)

[Orange Knight]

I completed agree that there should be some flavour. 

 

It can be applied more selectively and a limited way, however.

For example, via use of a specific character ability or a thematic stratagem, when a Blood Angels unit does actually assault something it can be more brutal in the way they execute their attacks.

In the same way an Ultramarine unit might be more efficient when performing combined arms attacks in some way.

 

But these should be tied to specific abilities and applied carefully, and not active army wide at all times. This has caused a lot of issues in 8th and 9th as it can be unpredictable when rule stacking is applied to varied units that can access a large selection of wargear.

[Karhedron]

Just rereading the Warcom article and I think some people are getting upset because they have missed this bit.

 

Quote

One of the major choices you’ll need to make – after choosing which faction you like the most, of course – is what Detachment rules you’ll pick. These determine how your specific army performs, providing special rules and unique traits, as well as unique Stratagems and Enhancements. 

 

This bit to me implies that Oath of Moment is not all that Marines will get. In fact we know that Doctrines still exist in some fashion. So it is possible that we get Marine Faction rules (e.g. Doctrines) and still get Chapter Subfaction rules (e.g. Red Thirst, Vows etc). That means even if you play a Gladius Strike Force, it will play differently between Chapters.

 

Then other Detachments can look at things like fast strike forces (which players might choose to represent either White Scars or Ravenwing), melee-centric lists (which might appeal to Blood Angels or Space Wolves etc) but the Detachment will be separate from faction and sub-faction.

 

Of course I could be wrong but it seems to me that Marines will be getting more than just Oath of Moment.

[Sir Clausel]

I mean the tyranid detachment rules could very well be how the vows for BT will be. They get a choice before the start of the first battleround. Pretty much like vows are now.

[Malakithe]

They did the same thing for AoS starting in 3rd getting rid of massed rerolls and turning them into +1's or just removing them and not adding anything.