Rumour Valrak trusted rumor: Firstborn Land Speeder and Firstborn Dreadnought going to legends

[phandaal]

1 hour ago, Marshal Mittens said:

Katy Mills Mall

 

Ah, a fellow man of culture. I too must fight for my life against Tyranid-like swarms of mosquitoes every year.

 

52 minutes ago, Lexington said:

It's a classic, and the Redemptor's just an inferior design, visually speaking.

 

Yeah, my Redemptor grew on me over time but the boxnaut is a classic. Right up there with Terminator armor in my opinion.

 

I would bet 3rd parties will step in to sell the parts to create upscaled boxy dreads though. Can always use it for "counts as"

[SvenIronhand]

I'd bet Venerables are going to stay.

[Evil Eye]

The issue with the Dreadnought being retired is the replacement is anything but direct, it's a straight up different unit. It's bigger, differently designed and according to the fluff pretty useless at the main thing Dreadnoughts were designed for (keeping veterans alive forever). It's not a case of "We're replacing the MkV Dreadnought kit with a new, better sculpted MkV Dreadnought" it's "We're taking an iconic unit and replacing it entirely with a very different and totally incompatible unit". Because no matter what anyone says, a Redemptor Dreadnought is not a Castraferrum. And speaking for myself as someone who loves the Castraferrum, I'm pretty peeved at the idea of it being sidelined so GW can sell a bigger, more expensive and IMO at least worse looking "replacement".

 

I'm actually getting a bit sick of the "Oh, well Firstborn units are redundant because of [X]"! argument, as if [X] needed to exist in the first place and its existence isn't what created the redundancy to begin with. Honestly, speaking as someone who started neutral towards Primaris, if I were rich and powerful I'd be performing a hostile takeover of GW at this point just so I could retire the entire Primaris range, retcon them from existence, bring out actual rescaled Marines, and should my actions cause GW to go belly-up then as a last act of spite I'd release the entire IP to the public domain along with free .stl files of the entire model catalogue...Except Primaris.

[sandrorect]

14 minutes ago, Evil Eye said:

The issue with the Dreadnought being retired is the replacement is anything but direct, it's a straight up different unit. It's bigger, differently designed and according to the fluff pretty useless at the main thing Dreadnoughts were designed for (keeping veterans alive forever). It's not a case of "We're replacing the MkV Dreadnought kit with a new, better sculpted MkV Dreadnought" it's "We're taking an iconic unit and replacing it entirely with a very different and totally incompatible unit". Because no matter what anyone says, a Redemptor Dreadnought is not a Castraferrum. And speaking for myself as someone who loves the Castraferrum, I'm pretty peeved at the idea of it being sidelined so GW can sell a bigger, more expensive and IMO at least worse looking "replacement".

 

 

 

Ahh but the new Redemptor is a Castraferrum.

 

In 10Th edition trailer the redemptor was equiped with a laser canon and a missile launcher... a classic configuration for the old dreads. So if you make a new dread with the same options than the old one is a update of the model more than a new unit.

 

The only thing in this case is the new dread will have more wounds and ancillary weapons. 

 

[Xirix]

If this is a sign that the sculpt will eventually be retired from 40K I hope the success of Heresy 2.0 will perhaps encourage them to make a slightly updated boxnaught with the siege dread options that 30K has, though they haven't made anything plastic for the Legacies units as of yet...

[DesuVult]

If the sculpt is ended Grey Knight players lose an option for no real reason.

[Shinespider]

I deeply hope this isn't true, because I adore the Castaferrum. Much more so than the Redemptor. 

[Blindhamster]

Imo, what they should do is just make it clear the “redemptor” can be equipped like the current castaferrum, just make it a single datasheet with all the options. Would be simpler than legends and would mean people with the old box-noughts that they love can keep using them and even get better rules for them in the process

 

edit

but the whole thing of “getting rid of primaris” out of spite just makes people sound petulant and frankly shows how little you care about your fellow frater. 
 

and before I get accused or it, no I’m not rejoicing over the news the castaferrum is apparently going to legends, I don’t overly care one way or another, I’ve preferred contemptuous, leviathans and Redemptors since each came out but don’t begrudge others enjoying the old ones. The Redemptor is easily a logical update to the castaferrum though, and it wouldn’t take GW much effort to have just allowed the current options on the Redemptor datasheet, could even have simply called it “dreadnought” again then.

Edited April 19, 2023 by Blindhamster

[Captain Idaho]

GW has stated this in the media before as a positive but frankly I just don't like the fact everything is getting so much bigger. Storage is an issue, as is transportation. 

 

Redemptors, Primaris, new Guardsmen... everything is getting so much bigger that it's become impractical for me.

 

Sure some things are ok getting bigger as centrepieces etc. Of course. But I don't like that the Redemptor is so much bigger. I liked the size of my models previously, which includes the "Boxnaught".

[Noserenda]

1 hour ago, Orange Knight said:

Legends can and should be handled in a better and more supportive way than what was done in 8th and 9th.

 

It needs to be closer to the legacies PDF in the Horus Heresy.

Really? I mean they are treated near identically outside of tournament types but the 30k version is considerably more slapdash in execution, so many units with ridiculous rules or punitive points costs.

[DesuVult]

17 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

edit

but the whole thing of “getting rid of primaris” out of spite just makes people sound petulant and frankly shows how little you care about your fellow frater. 
 

The irony

[Khornestar]

No reason to be nasty to each other for sure, but one range is likely to gradually disappear a lot sooner than the other based on age alone, whether or not one likes or dislikes them.

[Blindhamster]

10 minutes ago, DesuVult said:

The irony

which bit exactly? The bit where I said GW could have just merged the sheets, keeping everyone happy? I literally acknowledged that people love them and should get to keep using them. :/

Edited April 19, 2023 by Blindhamster

[Interrogator Stobz]

+++BEFORE THIS BEGINS, I'M GOING TO NOPE IT+++

 

Thanks for not arguing about the 'Divide' and just accepting what happens from GeeDub as inevitable. 

 

 

[Mr. Oddity]

While Valrak has had a very good track record recently and therefore this is likely true, it's going to be a sad development. The Castraferrum has been the classic design for ages, and it has a lot of character despite its age. Hopefully the model will still be allowed in 30k since it was introduced near the end of the heresy.

 

Logistically, it'll be interesting to see how they handle the specialty dreadnoughts moving forwards if this is true. The Ironclad doesn't have a perfect analogue since the Brutalis is more akin to a Furioso and the Venerable is its own bespoke kit. At best that's two Mk. V chassis still in circulation, at worst that's three kits and data sheets gone. Plus at that point does GW continue to sell kits that aren't supported or eat the loss?

 

Chapter-specific kits are probably safe for a while, but will they eventually be ushered out as well when molds degrade or will they be redone on the new chassis? There's also the lore differences that have been touched on earlier in the thread that would be difficult to reconcile even with a hand wave of the current Redemptor lore. 
 

An interesting move would be to potentially combine the boxnaught and Contemptor into a relic dreadnought profile (like the old Terminator consolidation) since they have similar base loadouts, but a) the new Contemptor kit has a lot more options that don't have equivalents and b) that would lead to its own frustrations with fans. Unfortunately there will be people unhappy no matter what they do at this point.

[MithrilForge]

I love all my old models too, but if GW didn’t change anything at all we’d be stuck with the first ever RTB01 space marine(or whatever model number it had ?) and a really bad looking terminator model… I Love/Hate GW as much as the next guy/girl but they’re going to make new models and get rid of old ones … it’s a simple fact… I don’t feel like it’s a catastrophic thing, some of these models have been around for over 20 years , I’m actually annoyed they don’t update things more frequently 

I only have one dreadnought left in my collection (I sell and update periodically so this isn’t hitting me like it is other frater , sorry for that.)  that last dreads going to get the bronze statue treatment and become a terrain piece on a pedestal .

 

M. 

[Cryptshadow]

3 hours ago, Evil Eye said:

The issue with the Dreadnought being retired is the replacement is anything but direct, it's a straight up different unit. It's bigger, differently designed and according to the fluff pretty useless at the main thing Dreadnoughts were designed for (keeping veterans alive forever). It's not a case of "We're replacing the MkV Dreadnought kit with a new, better sculpted MkV Dreadnought" it's "We're taking an iconic unit and replacing it entirely with a very different and totally incompatible unit". Because no matter what anyone says, a Redemptor Dreadnought is not a Castraferrum. And speaking for myself as someone who loves the Castraferrum, I'm pretty peeved at the idea of it being sidelined so GW can sell a bigger, more expensive and IMO at least worse looking "replacement".

 

I'm actually getting a bit sick of the "Oh, well Firstborn units are redundant because of [X]"! argument, as if [X] needed to exist in the first place and its existence isn't what created the redundancy to begin with. Honestly, speaking as someone who started neutral towards Primaris, if I were rich and powerful I'd be performing a hostile takeover of GW at this point just so I could retire the entire Primaris range, retcon them from existence, bring out actual rescaled Marines, and should my actions cause GW to go belly-up then as a last act of spite I'd release the entire IP to the public domain along with free .stl files of the entire model catalogue...Except Primaris.

A dreadnaught isn't supposed to keep veterans alive forever, im very sure the lore says they keep most veterans in dreadnaughts in statis until they need them because they go insane and the stress that the dreadnaught puts them through is really harsh. The statis is what keeps them alive. the redemptor just cranks that to 11

And it is not a different unit, it's basically the same, because it is meant to be an updated boxnaught. i believe a bunch of the parts for a ven boxnaught fit with the redemptor ( i bought some bits for a conversion) , so it is a casterferrum, saying otherwise is just your opinion, don't hate the redemptor for having knees and arms and a dad bod, its in vogue atm .  And i don't see why u couldnt just the box naughts as redemptors, i feel people forget you could do that, as long as its the same load out no one should have a problem with that, just make a new giant cork mountain for your boxnaughts. 

 

And that would be very harsh and petty of you, but i peldge to this community if they give me a few billion dollars i will do the opposite except not run gw to the ground, make rules free, release all the old stuff as stls for free with the purchase of 1k dollars worth of primaris units, i will remake the desolation squad! so give me money so that i can become rich and powerful and buy gw! 

 

EDIT: also someone on a discord did also tell mention that the amount of stuff getting legends, is going to be about as much as 9th ( not just for space marines all factions ) take that as you will

Edited April 20, 2023 by Cryptshadow

[Mr. Oddity]

12 minutes ago, Mumeishi said:

I love all my old models too, but if GW didn’t change anything at all we’d be stuck with the first ever RTB01 space marine(or whatever model number it had ?) and a really bad looking terminator model… I Love/Hate GW as much as the next guy/girl but they’re going to make new models and get rid of old ones … it’s a simple fact… I don’t feel like it’s a catastrophic thing, some of these models have been around for over 20 years , I’m actually annoyed they don’t update things more frequently 

I only have one dreadnought left in my collection (I sell and update periodically so this isn’t hitting me like it is other frater , sorry for that.)  that last dreads going to get the bronze statue treatment and become a terrain piece on a pedestal .

 

M. 

I agree that progress on the whole is a good thing, and they've done wonderful work with a lot of their new scuplts. Just being a bit wistful about it all lol. Also, a good way to pay tribute to an ancient warrior!

[WrathOfTheLion]

I'd be perfectly fine if the new dreadnought in the starter box is just a straight update, and you don't have legends rules.

 

That's the best way for things, just like Terminators are an update there.

 

Otherwise, he's had his run if this is true, rip to those old warriors.

Edited April 20, 2023 by WrathOfTheLion

[Interrogator Stobz]

Replacing and updating the sculpts is entirely different to retirement of a unit rules and all. The Counts as option only goes so far in some groups.

This will hurt some players. Myself included.

 

But as they say:

Life is painful, suffering is optional.

 

Dreads for Life (After Death)

 

Edit: A new sculpt ala TDA refresh would be the bees knees.

Edited April 20, 2023 by Interrogator Stobz

[FarFromSam]

I don't need rules updates for 9 dreads.  If the introduction of the redemptor, is to be the update for the classic box I'm game for it. To arbitrarily make the previous model unusable reeks of a cash grab.  

 

GW does not need to make new units to keep things interesting.  The evidence is the 30 years the company has built itself on. I'm glad they're making new models like the redemptor because a lot of folk seem to enjoy that StarCraft 2 look.  I won't yuck their yum but I like the classic look of the big +SNIP+ brick.  

 

We have had counts as for decades.  And if you're going to spend 2-3 hours across the table from a stranger, they'll probably not mind a proxy.  If not, well,  I wasn't winning GT's before this and saving myself the headach of an interaction with that caliber of +SNIP+ is worth an L.   

 

Condensing rules = good.

Permanently shelving models= bad.  

 

Anyone think otherwise?  Help me understand. 

 

One last edit, dill dough shouldn't be inappropriate language that's one of the best words we got!

Edited April 20, 2023 by farfromsam
Inappropriate language.

[LittlePlasticHomies]

I’m pretty new to this game and tbh don’t see this scale creep as a bad thing. The old models are neat but the newer ones have a lot more detail and dynamism. 
 

I can see why people would be torn up about having to retire models but a 20 year run is pretty good.

[Interrogator Stobz]

FYI: The old FW resin dreads have way more detail than the new GW plastic ones. 

And some would say they look better, so retirement is a bad option for many folks.

 

The new units are simply that, they are different, not a 1 for 1 replacement. 

Both Minis can exist in the game but for obvious financial reasons the old will likely be retired at some stage.

Edited April 20, 2023 by Interrogator Stobz

[BitsHammer]

7 hours ago, WrathOfTheLion said:

Land Speeders would be a shame for Ravenwing armies, maybe another kit will come out as well to add more variety.

As someone who just tracked down a Master of the Ravenwing and the old Ravenwing boxset: yes it will be. 

 

Scouts losing Landspeeder Storms is a bit sad as well.

[Lemondish]

5 hours ago, Evil Eye said:

if I were rich and powerful I'd be performing a hostile takeover of GW at this point just so I could retire the entire Primaris range, retcon them from existence, bring out actual rescaled Marines, and should my actions cause GW to go belly-up then as a last act of spite I'd release the entire IP to the public domain along with free .stl files of the entire model catalogue...Except Primaris

 Well, I suppose the username checks out. That's downright diabolical.