10th Faction Focus preview: IG

[Trickstick]

6 hours ago, Tokugawa said:

Modifiers of hit can't exceed +1 total, so once a weapon has "heavy 5+" printed on its profile, it can never hit on a 3. It's much weaker than plain "4+".

 

Heavy adds +1 to the dice roll, the order adds +1 to the BS. You can't modify the dice roll by more than +1, but these two still stack.

[Emperor Ming]

Yeah shame many weapons seem not to be heavy anymore

 

Stop complaining about lugging that lascannon around Jenkins, it isn't even heavy anymore

[Fenge]

On 5/25/2023 at 12:04 PM, Emperor Ming said:

Yeah shame many weapons seem not to be heavy anymore

 

Stop complaining about lugging that lascannon around Jenkins, it isn't even heavy anymore

It wold actually be a good thing is weapons lost the Heavy tag, at Least on infantry, as many of Them seem to be getting worse BS as a result.

 

There it would be preferable to not have the heavy tag but remain on bs 4 instead of bs 5.

[Trickstick]

3 hours ago, Fenge said:

There it would be preferable to not have the heavy tag but remain on bs 4 instead of bs 5.

 

True it would be technically better, but not very lore-friendly. Plus, maybe they will be slightly cheaper because of the disadvantage.

[Fenge]

On 5/27/2023 at 1:09 PM, Trickstick said:

 

True it would be technically better, but not very lore-friendly. Plus, maybe they will be slightly cheaper because of the disadvantage.

Maybe for some weapons. If only some of the "Heavy weapons" actually got the Heavy tag, an lower BS, it could help diffentiate the weapons even more.

 

Like it could be a feature of the missile laucher that it was more mobile than say a lascannon and thus more flexible, playing into its multirole purpose.

 

I dont think we are gonna get that lucky though.

[Tokugawa]

Lore friendly? Are you serious? The lore is not friendly to your mortal human at all. In background story a veteran marine could easily kill 100 guardsmen in fight.

[mertbl]

Every weapon can be unique to that units datasheet. So an infantry squads lascannon option could be bs5+ and heavy while a lascannon on a russ is just bs4+.

Edited May 28, 2023 by mertbl

[Fenge]

7 hours ago, mertbl said:

Every weapon can be unique to that units datasheet. So an infantry squads lascannon option could be bs5+ and heavy while a lascannon on a russ is just bs4+.

This certainly seems to be the case. My problem with the Heavy tag is that almost all infantry with weapons that have the Heavy tag seem to have worse bs than the rest of the squad. It is pretty terrible since we will have fewer order around since they dont splash anymore. And it promote a passive playstyle where you Are punished for moving your models.

 

 

Edited May 29, 2023 by Fenge

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

6 hours ago, Fenge said:

This certainly seems to be the case. My problem with the Heavy tag is that almost all infantry with weapons that have the Heavy tag seem to have worse bs than the rest of the squad. It is pretty terrible since we will have fewer order around since they dont splash anymore. And it promote a passive playstyle where you Are punished for moving your models.

 

 

They have worse BS because when heavy weapons don’t move you add 1 to the weapon’s BS stat…

it’s basically just the reverse of the current way it works.

[mertbl]

You don't know that orders don't splash and you don't know that we will have fewer orders available.  

[Fenge]

7 hours ago, mertbl said:

You don't know that orders don't splash and you don't know that we will have fewer orders available.  

Come on. We have seen our army rule "voice of command" and if it were to splash it would certainly be written in that rule.

 

And from what was written only certain officers get to give order to certain models eg. Tank commanders giving orders to vehicles. Unless taking vehicles in a squadron allows for orders to hit all vehicles in that squadron, we will  effectivly have fewer orders.

Which will be a problem for our bs 4 tanks.

 

I Will be very happy to be proven wrong but I am not optimistic about our order situation.

 

I know that our "Heavy weapons" have lower base BS because they get +1 to hit if stationary. I just think it is unnecessary to keep that flag i Heavy weapons. Heck they removed any negatives to assault weaponry. "Heavy" along with "born soldiers" promotes a boring stationary playstyle. And unless the amount of LoS blocking terrain have been reuced by a lot, it will be a very poor playstyle along with being booring.

 

One thing the 9th codex did well was that it promoted movement which led to more interresting games.

From what we have seen several things seem to reverse this in 10th, which is not good news, unless you find it fun and engaging to remain stationary and blast away at whatever scraplets the enemy allows you to shoot at. with most of your army for a large portion of the game either hitting very poorly and not gaining any benefit from our detachment rule, or sitting still, not taking objectives and only shooting what the enemy decides to move into your LoS.

Edited May 29, 2023 by Fenge

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

3 hours ago, Fenge said:

Come on. We have seen our army rule "voice of command" and if it were to splash it would certainly be written in that rule.

 

And from what was written only certain officers get to give order to certain models eg. Tank commanders giving orders to vehicles. Unless taking vehicles in a squadron allows for orders to hit all vehicles in that squadron, we will  effectivly have fewer orders.

Which will be a problem for our bs 4 tanks.

 

I Will be very happy to be proven wrong but I am not optimistic about our order situation.

 

I know that our "Heavy weapons" have lower base BS because they get +1 to hit if stationary. I just think it is unnecessary to keep that flag i Heavy weapons. Heck they removed any negatives to assault weaponry. "Heavy" along with "born soldiers" promotes a boring stationary playstyle. And unless the amount of LoS blocking terrain have been reuced by a lot, it will be a very poor playstyle along with being booring.

 

One thing the 9th codex did well was that it promoted movement which led to more interresting games.

From what we have seen several things seem to reverse this in 10th, which is not good news, unless you find it fun and engaging to remain stationary and blast away at whatever scraplets the enemy allows you to shoot at. with most of your army for a large portion of the game either hitting very poorly and not gaining any benefit from our detachment rule, or sitting still, not taking objectives and only shooting what the enemy decides to move into your LoS.

Boring is your opinion.

the heavy weapon rule has always promoted a static play style for infantry, and plenty of people have been plenty happy to play artillery supported by massed gun lines of heavy weapons for as long as I’ve been in the guard.

 

I’m not sure why you’re so upset about the heavy rule now.

the wording changes but the in game effect will be the exact same.

 

afaik tank commanders could only ever order vehicles unless they had the WLT that allowed them to know and extra set of orders.

 

youre complaining about things that aren’t changing as far as I can tell, and claiming they’re changing the guard play style.

 

want a mobile infantry force? Put CSTs on the table or just eat the worse BS on infantry heavy weapons.

Edited May 30, 2023 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Sergeant Bastone]

I like orders not splashing.  You have to make decisions about who to give orders to and our officers need to be on the spot to give them.  It's up to us lads.

 

I'd say the autowounding 6s while standing still would encourage more standing still than the +1 to heavy.  Standing still has always been +1 with heavy (or before that you couldn't even shoot heavy weapons if they moved, which i actually prefer)

[Fenge]

4 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Boring is your opinion.

the heavy weapon rule has always promoted a static play style for infantry, and plenty of people have been plenty happy to play artillery supported by massed gun lines of heavy weapons for as long as I’ve been in the guard.

 

I’m not sure why you’re so upset about the heavy rule now.

the wording changes but the in game effect will be the exact same.

 

afaik tank commanders could only ever order vehicles unless they had the WLT that allowed them to know and extra set of orders.

 

youre complaining about things that aren’t changing as far as I can tell, and claiming they’re changing the guard play style.

 

want a mobile infantry force? Put CSTs on the table or just eat the worse BS on infantry heavy weapons.

Since I wrote "I think" in the begining of that paragraf I thought that it would be obvious that, yes, it is my opinion. I don't think it is the big clap back you think it is.
 For people that like spending a game with a stationary army. Well great for them I guess, but I think it is idiotic to force every guard player to conform to playstyle especially when the 9th codex offered a large variaty of playstyles. I am glad that artillery seem to be getting better as the only arty that was really worth a damn was the mortar pit.

The heavy rule actually got worse as we can now be hit by -2 to hit much easier. 
I also don't get why they decided to buff assault weapons but actually gave heavy a small nerf, all the while couching it in language as if it's a buff.

I know that tank commanders could only ever order vehicles. I think you misread what I wrote. If orders don't splash, which we have no reason to think that they will. most of our Leman russ tanks will be stuck on Bs 4 and as we saw in 8th, a leman russ on bs4 is not really viable. nearly no lists featured leman russ tanks i 8th, only TC's, an currently the TC is also stuck on bs4. Even if TC's get native bs3 we will only see a single leman russ pr. TC. 

in our 9th codex most people didn't use infantry squads very much precisely because they were static and had trouble hitting things when forced to move. Most people used the shocktroopers because they were mobile and didn't lose effiency because of their weapon choices. Now the shocktrooper squad has had their firepower cut in half, and meltas seem to not be sufficient to take on vehicles. 

 

so yes things are changing. with 9th we had a variaty of viable playstyles while now we are being funneled into a specific playstyle. and great for the people who enjoy not moving their models but I think it is problematic that wanting to play a mobile force is being punished.

I know we are getting more detachments which could help mitigate this but these are at least a year away.

[mertbl]

10 hours ago, Fenge said:

Come on. We have seen our army rule "voice of command" and if it were to splash it would certainly be written in that rule.

"Voice of command" doesn't even offer order splashing now. "Regimental tactics" is what provides the splash. Remember they said 2 pages of army rules, we have seen 1 paragraph.  

[Fenge]

37 minutes ago, mertbl said:

"Voice of command" doesn't even offer order splashing now. "Regimental tactics" is what provides the splash. Remember they said 2 pages of army rules, we have seen 1 paragraph.  

Yeah we can Hope, and I would love to be wrong here. Fingers crossed.

 

My only point here is that if we oly get what we se now I will be sorely disapointed.

[Emperor Ming]

Orders really need to splash, otherwise we are going to be back to the start of 8th

 

Has everyone noticed foot inf heavy weapons have one less bs on the model but the heavy rule on previews so far

 

So infantry lascannons, mortars and such are probably going to be bs5, then heavy. 

[mertbl]

4 hours ago, Emperor Ming said:

Orders really need to splash, otherwise we are going to be back to the start of 8th

 

Has everyone noticed foot inf heavy weapons have one less bs on the model but the heavy rule on previews so far

 

So infantry lascannons, mortars and such are probably going to be bs5, then heavy. 

Which is fine because take aim and stationary will get them back to hitting on 3s because 1 is a BS modifier and 1 is a to hit modifier. 

[Fenge]

Only problem is that we don't know that we will be having enough orders to go around to ive them take aim if orders do not splash.

[librisrouge]

We also don't know what our leaders do to the units they've joined. Command squads even join units now. For all we know, our orders don't splash but leaders can order their own unit in addition to others, or something like that which would help our order economy stretch further.

 

So much we don't know and it has given me a bit of game paralysis. I want to paint and get ready for 10th but I don't know what will be effective or even allowed.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

2 hours ago, Fenge said:

Only problem is that we don't know that we will be having enough orders to go around to ive them take aim if orders do not splash.

we also don't know that we won't have enought...

13 hours ago, Fenge said:

Since I wrote "I think" in the begining of that paragraf I thought that it would be obvious that, yes, it is my opinion. I don't think it is the big clap back you think it is.
 For people that like spending a game with a stationary army. Well great for them I guess, but I think it is idiotic to force every guard player to conform to playstyle especially when the 9th codex offered a large variaty of playstyles. I am glad that artillery seem to be getting better as the only arty that was really worth a damn was the mortar pit.

The heavy rule actually got worse as we can now be hit by -2 to hit much easier. 
I also don't get why they decided to buff assault weapons but actually gave heavy a small nerf, all the while couching it in language as if it's a buff.

I know that tank commanders could only ever order vehicles. I think you misread what I wrote. If orders don't splash, which we have no reason to think that they will. most of our Leman russ tanks will be stuck on Bs 4 and as we saw in 8th, a leman russ on bs4 is not really viable. nearly no lists featured leman russ tanks i 8th, only TC's, an currently the TC is also stuck on bs4. Even if TC's get native bs3 we will only see a single leman russ pr. TC. 

in our 9th codex most people didn't use infantry squads very much precisely because they were static and had trouble hitting things when forced to move. Most people used the shocktroopers because they were mobile and didn't lose effiency because of their weapon choices. Now the shocktrooper squad has had their firepower cut in half, and meltas seem to not be sufficient to take on vehicles. 

 

so yes things are changing. with 9th we had a variaty of viable playstyles while now we are being funneled into a specific playstyle. and great for the people who enjoy not moving their models but I think it is problematic that wanting to play a mobile force is being punished.

I know we are getting more detachments which could help mitigate this but these are at least a year away.

again you're complaining about things that are total non-issues. 
don't want to have a static playstyle play vehicles or use CSTs.

nothing about this is forcing anyone to play a static playstyle if they don't want to.

[Fenge]

3 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

we also don't know that we won't have enought...

again you're complaining about things that are total non-issues. 
don't want to have a static playstyle play vehicles or use CSTs.

nothing about this is forcing anyone to play a static playstyle if they don't want to.

Simply just claiming that the things I point out to be non-issues does not make them so.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, Fenge said:

Simply just claiming that the things I point out to be non-issues does not make them so.

you're right that doesn't make it so. the fact that you have nothing to back up your claims with makes it so.

there's very little changing based on what we have seen, so what exactly is your issue?

[Fenge]

4 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

you're right that doesn't make it so. the fact that you have nothing to back up your claims with makes it so.

there's very little changing based on what we have seen, so what exactly is your issue?

I have postede several reasons to my feelings regarding the changes and given plenty of examples. That you choose to ignore them says all that needs to be said.

[Shamansky]

we actually don't know too much. Core rules without matched play rules, only 1 "formation" per armie/ It's too early to come to conclusions really. I know that geedubs will mess up (in fact they've already done) and will turn the game in neverending powercreep instead of balance, patching for patches and wow-new rules for wow-new-shiny-toys. As i see it, on the start of the 10th there will be only a sceleton of rules. And new 'formations' will be issued much later. So i'd wait for a while before making conclusions.