Wh40k 10th Edition Horus Heresy Units In 10th Edition

[Kastor Krieg]

16 minutes ago, jaxom said:

If the wider TO community has any sense at all, knowing the impact and trickle down effect they have, they should get some sort of common counts-as list out as soon as possible. Miniature size variance and "modeling for advantage" has already been a conversation and it shouldn't be huge jump to get everyone to accept that Contemptors count as Venerable Dreadnought chassis, Leviathans count as Redemptor chassis, Deredeo count as Ballistarius chassis, Spartans count as Land Raiders, various HH flyers count as Stormravens or  Stormtalons or Stormhawks, etc.

I was about to say - I'm not waiting for TO / local club's event orgs et al. This Leviathan is now a Redemptor, I even have magnetized weapons so it can be the fighty one or the shooty one and tit guns are swappable as well.

This model is in or I'm out, what shall it be?

[Doghouse]

I did something similar 3d printing a boxnaught with redemptor weapons.

[Robbienw]

I think this maybe a silly decision, going to lose out on Dreadnought and Vehicle sales going forward.  Several of these units stated out as Forgeworld 40k units as well, before the age of darkness became a thing.  Storm Eagle, Contemptor, Spartan all were 40k units first.

[Captain Idaho]

Probably worth pointing out, that myself and I'm sure many others (though I don't speak for them) understand limitations and need for balance. 

 

But that doesn't take away the fact GW actively told us, nay advertised and pushed less than a year ago, that we can and should buy certain products for use in 40K. The fact they have relegated said products to Legends, a grave yard for rules that actually become more and more obsolete and problematic for players as the Seasons model goes on, shows GW have betrayed or misled us.

 

If you're going to push a product, don't a year later tell us "it's fine you can't use that now."

 

The push back on their Facebook account is telling too. The vast majority of responses are negative. 

 

Thing is, it might not affect you. But we should at least appreciate other members of the community it does affect.

[Noserenda]

Yep, a big chunk of the Marine stuff, all the Mech stuff, and the chaos stuff except the Kharybdis; all 40k units first. its not a 30k purge, its more forgeworld purging and really, id expect to see the stuff not in 30k most likely as last chance to buy than 30k rules next time they get mentioned.

[OttoVonAwesome]

18 minutes ago, jaxom said:

 

If the wider TO community has any sense at all, knowing the impact and trickle down effect they have, they should get some sort of common counts-as list out as soon as possible. Miniature size variance and "modeling for advantage" has already been a conversation and it shouldn't be huge jump to get everyone to accept that Contemptors count as Venerable Dreadnought chassis, Leviathans count as Redemptor chassis, Deredeo count as Ballistarius chassis, Spartans count as Land Raiders, various HH flyers count as Stormravens or  Stormtalons or Stormhawks, etc.

 

 

 

 

Nobody really wants to play that whole proxy game. The wider community should just allow Legends and pressure GW into adopting the Legacies policy rather then restricting and denying any chance of a rules update to these units cuase again all the data used to balance units comes from tournements it's not any more work than they would be doing to balance any other unit all the datasheets are made and ready to go and all they gotta do is look at who's winning too much and what unit compositions they have in common if a legacy unit rears it's head too much how is it any different than if say Brutalis dreads are popping up in 3's in every list and is it not even easier to update a unit who's datasheet only exists in a digital format?

 

Something else is going on and I'm inclined it has to do more with marketing data and sales metrics than what's best for the game.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Just need to play some Badab Wars and the like using 30k rules. I'm sure there's some great community opportunities.

[BrainFireBob]

I commented earlier, I think Contemptors/Leviathans are being scapegoated over the new Redemptor variants. Those are so popular I can't see killing the revenue otherwise

[Bloody Legionnaire]

53 minutes ago, BrainFireBob said:

There's no contradiction, and you are the one who is unable to distinguish between "tournament legal" and "fine tuned."

 

Tuning's not required for pickups. The current rules are, and that's generally perceived as the latest rules- i.e., tournament rules. It is simply how it is.

 

A new player can use this thing called the internet for list building advice, but it can't negotiate with strangers face to face on Wednesday in the game store looking for a pickup. It can tell them what's legal, though.

 

You're tilting at windmills of your own creation claiming that any of us stated that tournament rules are balanced. What they are is patched against egregious issues outside the codex cycle. The ones WAAC people actually exploit. 

 

I'm guessing you didn't survive the 6 months after the VDR went live.

 

If you really believe that then you should have absolutely no issue with legends units being used in any game mode outside of tournament play and then, why the hell are you even arguing? Legends units are part of the current rules for any game mode outside of tournament play. I did nothing to create a claim that tournament rules were balanced. Feel free to re-read the thread again and noticed all the post I have personally responded to claiming that tournament play was the most fair way to play as if it was the main method of play within the hobby for the majority of gamers. 

[Dried]

People want to play tournament rules because it's the "more balanced and fair ruleset" don't understand it's not.

It's just the more balanced and fair ruleset in a tournament environment, using tournament packet, tournament tables, tournament meta (which is always in flux...), tournament list etc.

 

In the vast majority of games played (which are outside tournaments obviously) you don't use a tournament list, don't play on a tournament table (with L shaped ruin everywhere) why using a legend unit is a problem?

The only way I can see it being a problem is with an opponent making a list to totally exploit an hypothetical broken legend unit. It's 1) already not a great adversary for a non tournament game, 2) highly improbable because obviously those are tournament ban.

 

And in fact in the long term those units are at least revised every 3 years or so. It's not si bad. I remember the time codices were not even revised every edition...

[Captain Idaho]

Does anyone else find this ironic:

 

 

Chaos Kratos coming, straight into Legends.

 

The way GW are shouting about this as if it's a great success to crow about, I get the impression they genuinely have no idea what people think of Legends until now. They're in a bubble and I suppose don't do community feedback for fear of leaks etc, so this has come as a surprise to them.

 

Their Facebook is overwhelmed on it.

[Wispy]

This is just me, but it is weird and probably not ideal status quo that people play with supplemental (tournament) rules for their friendly play and mostly ignore what comes in the rulebook. Doesn't seem right to me that core rule book missions might not as be there for most playing circles.

 

Maybe i have the wrong impression.

[phandaal]

3 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

Does anyone else find this ironic:

 

 

Chaos Kratos coming, straight into Legends.

 

The way GW are shouting about this as if it's a great success to crow about, I get the impression they genuinely have no idea what people think of Legends until now. They're in a bubble and I suppose don't do community feedback for fear of leaks etc, so this has come as a surprise to them.

 

Their Facebook is overwhelmed on it.

 

They definitely did not get it. The community page manager keeps saying "but you can still play it in Matched Play!" And people keep responding that this is not how it works in the real world.

 

Bet they are starting to get it now though. 

[Marshal Mittens]

I wish they included them in the book, and had a tournament book for tournament players that removed non tournament stuff. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

3 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

I get the impression they genuinely have no idea what people think of Legends until now. They're in a bubble and I suppose don't do community feedback for fear of leaks etc, so this has come as a surprise to them.

 

There's always been a Nottingham/pint with the mates bubble that's incredibly out of touch with how the game works and any confusion is resolved with a roll off instead of reading the rules. What's the real surprise is how that bubbles persisted for such a long time.

[Captain Idaho]

4 minutes ago, Wispy said:

This is just me, but it is weird and probably not ideal status quo that people play with supplemental (tournament) rules for their friendly play and mostly ignore what comes in the rulebook. Doesn't seem right to me that core rule book missions might not as be there for most playing circles.

 

Maybe i have the wrong impression.

 

It just goes to show the mess GW is in over this.

 

In creating multiple ways to play, they've actually made it more complex than it needed to be, more work for themselves so they can't balance everything yet with so many different choices overwhelming the community, people go to the most "official" set of rules they can find.

 

Tournament play vs casual play leads to the concept of official in people's head generally being Tournament play.

 

It's about having a common baseline for everyone and casual play doesn't have that as it's different for everyone what casual even means.

 

Interesting concept to discuss but you're not wrong - it is weird that the baseline isn't just what you get in the rule book. Unfortunately with a promoted Seasonal model, it'll always be post-rulebook. Hence the need for finding a baseline in ever changing play. Which leads us back to the matched play, Tournament rules.

[The Spitehorde]

21 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

 I get the impression they genuinely have no idea what people think of Legends until now. They're in a bubble and I suppose don't do community feedback for fear of leaks etc, so this has come as a surprise to them.

 

I'm a good bit more cynical. I suspect it's less about the bubble and more about the bean counters/money men. As Legends status makes those models less and less relevant over time there's a fair chunk of players that will almost forced into spending £$€ on new kit with datasheets that'll be kept current(ish?) to replace the legends that are now sitting on a shelf gathering dust. 

 

Edited June 1, 2023 by The Spitehorde
Text added.

[Captain Idaho]

1 minute ago, The Spitehorde said:

 

I'm a good bit more cynical. I suspect it's less about the bubble and more about the bean counters/money men. As Legends status makes those models less and less relevant over time there's a fair chunk of players that will be spending £$€ on new kit with datasheets that'll be kept current(ish?).

 

 

I can't deny you're probably very correct on that. 

 

But then, with price increases and how upset people are... maybe I don't want to spend my money so there's got to be a point they lose revenue and income than just transfer us cynically onto the new fresh thing.

[BrainFireBob]

1 hour ago, Bloody Legionnaire said:

 

If you really believe that then you should have absolutely no issue with legends units being used in any game mode outside of tournament play and then, why the hell are you even arguing? Legends units are part of the current rules for any game mode outside of tournament play. I did nothing to create a claim that tournament rules were balanced. Feel free to re-read the thread again and noticed all the post I have personally responded to claiming that tournament play was the most fair way to play as if it was the main method of play within the hobby for the majority of gamers. 

I personally have no objection to using them- I have quite a few myself. But the bald fact is, Legends is a soft death for units for the reasons I and others stated. Pickup games generally means the latest rules- it's a 2 yes one no situation for anything else. I'm not hauling a Kratos to the fame store anymore for that reason, unless I have an arranged game where we'd already agreed. 

 

Edit: Pickup games are the majority for most gamers most places, and that means the latest rules. Just how it is. 

 

You've responded to a lot of my posts, and I never claimed it was the most fair. You need to re-read and not skim if you think otherwise.

Edited June 1, 2023 by BrainFireBob

[Marshal Rohr]

It’s good GW is clearly and specifically drawing a line between matched play (pick up games) and competitive (organized tournaments). A lot of ‘sky is falling’ would be avoided if people would just read what they put in the article. Most games are not in tournament settings and there’s no reason to expect a pick up game to abide by formal rules for an intrinsically informal type of game. 

[Khornestar]

Tinfoil hat theory: forge world models are the most frequently recasted models for sure. This decision makes them less desirable. Of course, mainline 40k models get recasted as well but usually are of worse quality for whatever reason. Or used to be, anyway. I don’t really believe this, by the way.

 

Stu Black did a series of interviews with various YouTube content creators that was essentially a copied and pasted PR puff piece but I appreciated hearing him speak. For what it’s worth, there are over 2,000 data sheets in 40k. 
 

Objectively, balance is just not gonna happen in a game so vast. Perhaps it gets better with a smaller pool of units, perhaps not. I’m not a MTG player but I will use it as an example of a system that also implements some sort of restrictions for competitive play. I won’t delve into the details and I don’t think they’re super relevant, but the overall point is that IF one were to believe this decision was made for the overall health and balance of the game, I could see it.

 

Now, as others have rightly mentioned, we could exclude FW units entirely and still see blatant imbalance in the game. So in and of itself, I can buy that this simplifies GW’s job a little, but I treat it as a foregone conclusion that we’ll see the usual power disparity and imbalance that we always do, because of their release cycle and codex creep/chronic inability to maintain a design philosophy across an edition.

 

Someone in a discord group pointed out that this is essentially the death sentence for these units into 11th edition in 3 years or however far away that is.

Edited June 1, 2023 by Khornestar

[Captain Idaho]

I actually wanted to buy a 2nd, plastic Leviathan. Which I won't now.

 

I have a plastic 2nd Contemptor in a box ready to go... but I don't want to waste my time on it and might look to sell it.

 

Then there's the new Knights. They're still a sure thing as are Custodes? Well until they're not in a few years eh GW?

 

GW has basically torn away a lot of trust they built up since 8th in one fell swoop. I don't think they did it on purpose, more just incompetently not understanding what the community uses to play the game as a baseline and what is a slow death (i.e. Legends).

 

In short, who is going to invest money, time and effort into anything not in the main Codex books for 40K? That big new Knight? What if you ditch it like you did everything else in the next few years?

[Bloody Legionnaire]

24 minutes ago, BrainFireBob said:

I personally have no objection to using them- I have quite a few myself. But the bald fact is, Legends is a soft death for units for the reasons I and others stated. Pickup games generally means the latest rules- it's a 2 yes one no situation for anything else. I'm not hauling a Kratos to the fame store anymore for that reason, unless I have an arranged game where we'd already agreed. 

 

Edit: Pickup games are the majority for most gamers most places, and that means the latest rules. Just how it is. 

 

You've responded to a lot of my posts, and I never claimed it was the most fair. You need to re-read and not skim if you think otherwise.

 

And yet, the *ONLY* reason this view is prevalent is because of tournament players and tournament centric mindsets.

Ever since legends became a thing, the gaming base has not really been sure how to respond to legends. There are those like myself who don't think it's a big of a deal, there are those who fall into your train of thought.. However, if we can take a step back for a second and try to imagine a reality where GW compartmentalizes how tournaments and competitive play are separate from the main game, it makes a lot of sense and it doesn't lead to conclusions that units go to legends to die.

Previously, it was assumed legends units were units that GW planned on getting rid from the game entirely. The excuse and assumption was these were models that GW had no intention of producing, weren't going to make money on, and weren't going to support. Those excuses absolutely do not work for all of the BRAND NEW plastic that GW has just released. It's obvious that GW wants us the player base to continue to buy and use these units... they want to make money on these products. The issue and *make no mistake this has been my entire angle all afternoon in every post,* tournament play(ers). Index astartes units (while being part of the game) made a huge impact on various different tournaments over the years in 8th and 9th and I don't think I need to make a list of the main offenders. All of us on this forum should be well aware of what they are. 

I think the issue is the inability (or the outright refusal) for the player base to compartmentalize the tournament style of play from the rest of the game. We can agree to disagree, and that's fine, but you have to admit if you consider that as a possibility, it does make some sense, regardless of how stupid the outcome has been. I can't solely blame GW... power gamers, WAAC gamers, and the hyper focus on tourney/competitive WH40k have their part in this. However, maybe GW needs to find another way to bring about balance. The game has the ability to be abused and tourney players taking advantage of that should not affect the rest of the gaming hobby. THAT is why I think GW made the move to say "hey guys, these are supposed to be used in matched play games, just not tournaments." The overreaction to legends is still something the community has to wear, because that's on them. 

Edited June 1, 2023 by Bloody Legionnaire

[Khornestar]

I think that point about legends models persisting is only really applicable to the newer 30k plastic kits.

 

FW has been downsizing their range for a while. No reason they won’t continue to do so. Not surprising to anyone, I’d guess. But if they don’t sell it, it’s unlikely to keep rules past this edition. Which is mostly okay in the sense that nothing lasts forever, it all has a shelf life.

[Captain Idaho]

Eldar from the main Codex have historically been broken as all the Warp-hells in many editions but that doesn't mean all their stuff goes to Legends.

 

GW should balance their game rather than just slash the products many of us paid for in good faith.