Wh40k 10th Edition Horus Heresy Units In 10th Edition

[BrainFireBob]

You are putting the cart before the horse.

 

Multiple frater- not just me- have been telling you tournament focus is not the issue, it's *pickup games with strangers.* The only ruleset not disputable is the current tournament rules set

 It is the only one guaranteed to get you a game on your one night a week gaming. 

 

*Understand this,* it is not that we are tournament focused. It is that tournament play is the most current, patched, official, indisputable set of rules for two strangers. You are projecting some kind of tournament veneration as a straw man. That is a you problem. Anything else requires negotiation that may not be fruitful. It is the indisputable that is the key to the social contract of two strangers approaching each other for a game.

 

In a club, or standing group, this can differ. Yay Utopia. Most of us aren't in Utopia. Legends is where things go to die. Water flows downhill. The sky is blue.

Edited June 1, 2023 by BrainFireBob

[Squark]

41 minutes ago, Marshal Rohr said:

It’s good GW is clearly and specifically drawing a line between matched play (pick up games) and competitive (organized tournaments). A lot of ‘sky is falling’ would be avoided if people would just read what they put in the article. Most games are not in tournament settings and there’s no reason to expect a pick up game to abide by formal rules for an intrinsically informal type of game. 

But the community at large doesn't. And shifting that perspective would require a monumental effort that only GW has the resources for, and doing so would probably canibalize sales of the tournament packs, so there's a financial disincentive for them to do so.

Edited June 1, 2023 by Squark

[Arkhanist]

9 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

...

In short, who is going to invest money, time and effort into anything not in the main Codex books for 40K? That big new Knight? What if you ditch it like you did everything else in the next few years?

 

Contemptors were even in the space marines 40k codex, or at least the first plastic one was, but they just say all comtemptors are going, unlike "Certain variants of the Land Raider, the Vindicator, and the Whirlwind". So taking it at face value, being in the 9th ed codex and having a new plastic kit less than a year old that is sold explicitly as being valid for 40k is no guarantee you'll still be able to use it 12 months later. I'm in a similar boat, where several of the new plastic tanks were going to go into my 40k list and definitely aren't now. It's left a bad taste about even getting anything for my HH list either. (that we're still waiting on more than tac squad plastic infantry, and their solution was a massively overpriced set of arms is another irritation there)

 

7 minutes ago, Bloody Legionnaire said:

 

And yet, the *ONLY* reason this view is prevalent is because of tournament players and tournament centric mindsets.

...
I think the issue is the inability (or the outright refusal) for the player base to compartmentalize the tournament style of play from the rest of the game. We can agree to disagree, and that's fine, but you have to admit if you consider that as a possibility, it does make some sense, regardless of how stupid the outcome has been. I can't solely blame GW... power gamers, WAAC gamers, and the hyper focus on tourney/competitive WH40k have their part in this. However, maybe GW needs to find another way to bring about balance. The game has the ability to be abused and tourney players taking advantage of that should not affect the rest of the gaming hobby. THAT is why I think GW made the move to say "hey guys, these are supposed to be used in matched play games, just not tournaments." The overreaction to legends is still something the community has to wear, because that's on them. 

 

Look, I get that you're not a fan of tournament players, or tournament rules, or WAAC. One point of order - a tournament player does not equal a WAAC player. You can be a casual player who is WAAC, and a perfectly normal, reasonable and fair player who also plays tournaments. WAAC means at ALL costs. Bending rules until they creak, blatantly abusing RAW/RAI edge cases, taking advantage of minor human failings of your opponent, or even outright cheating - these are WAAC. Some tournament players just go for fun, not even to win, so they are by definition, not WAAC. You can play a competition match yet still play in the spirit and rules of the game fairly, and that's not WAAC either. Conflating the two doesn't help your argument, and honestly, knowing a couple of very chill tourney players, is rather insulting to boot.

 

Anyway. I don't think I've seen a single commenter here say that tournament-mode is the best, or most correct, or fairest way to play as the standard, so constantly returning to this point, to try and convince us that we're wrong for thinking that it is, is literally a waste of time. WE AGREE.

 

However, I've had that argument more than once, and *other people* who we *have to often play if we want to play* DO believe that or something similar, and

a] trying to convince them that e.g. using the latest release of the game is not the best way we should play an older state instead (e.g. missions), or we should use legends because they're still technically ok for matched play even if they have rules clashes with the current codexes etc etc has not been successful.

b] sometimes, you just want to play instead of trying to argue a lost cause for half an hour before the game

 

Yes, this obsession with tournament legal lists is frustrating, we get that, it's REALLY frustrating for us too because it often actually stops us playing if we don't go along with it! But It. Is. the. reality. of the game for a number of us, and legends = death and that's what we have to live with in our local area whether we like it or not. And blaming us for being in that situation is also rather frustrating, frankly.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

9 minutes ago, BrainFireBob said:

You are putting the cart before the horse.

 

Multiple frater- not just me- have been telling you tournament focus is not the issue, it's *pickup games with strangers.* The only ruleset not disputable is the current tournament rules set

 It is the only one guaranteed to get you a game on your one night a week gaming. 

 

*Understand this,* it is not that we are tournament focused. It is that tournament play is the most current, patched, official, indisputable set of rules for two strangers. You are projecting some kind of tournament veneration as a straw man. That is a you problem. Anything else requires negotiation that may not be fruitful. It is the indisputable that is the key to the social contract of two strangers approaching each other for a game.

 

In a club, or standing group, this can differ. Yay Utopia. Most of us aren't in Utopia. Legends is where things go to die. Water flows downhill. The sky is blue.

 

So tell me, is that GWs intent, or is that the community's response? 

Anything other than GW's direct intent falls to the community, which is precisely why I am highlighting tournament play. It is a community problem. Two players who have the inability or the lack of social skills to work something out to the point that they require the "most current, patched, official, indisputable" set of rules, just to have a regular game of play (outside of a tournament setting), is the problem.  That problem, does not stem from the rules themselves, that problem stems from the community. 

Maybe you all need to be focusing more on the most important rule...

 

 

[Arkhanist]

4 minutes ago, Bloody Legionnaire said:

 

So tell me, is that GWs intent, or is that the community's response? 

Anything other than GW's direct intent falls to the community, which is precisely why I am highlighting tournament play. It is a community problem. Two players who have the inability or the lack of social skills to work something out

Maybe you all need to be focusing more on the most important rule...

 

 

 

 

*throws up hands*

 

I'm done being insulted by you for something which is not our fault or choice. Blocked.

[Lord_Valorion]

I lost my FW Chaos models just because the game designers are too lazy to do their job. Whatever they are getting paid...it is too much.

Edited June 2, 2023 by Lord_Valorion

[Captain Idaho]

I wonder if this will hurt HH sales too. I don't just mean from 40K, but I liked the cross over and was more inclined to buy from both lines. I now feel forced to choose only a single game system to concentrate on. (Financially I can't afford both and finding opponents for HH is tough in my area, so...)

[TheTrans]

3 hours ago, BrainFireBob said:

You are missing two elements.

 

40k is a hobby with high cost of entry that takes large chunks of time to play. 

 

If a list is tournament legal, it is legal in all game formats. This is not true of any other format. 

 

GW would prefer, by inference, us all to have large developed sideboards and constantly evolving lists.

 

Players generally want to *play,* which means wasting the least amount of time and money. That means a *planned* list that a players buys, assembles, and paints, to maximize playtime before the next game shakeup (which can make lists illegal). You can always play people- events, pickup games, etc.- with a tournament legal list. 

 

Yes, WAAC players will meta chase, but they're not the problem here. The problem is most people can play, events aside, 1-2 games a week? And they now change the rules (including points costs) every 3 months, so 12 weeks? It is *not worth* including maybe, maybe-not useable units as part of a planned list. 

Nailed it.

I think people are having a hard time 'getting' that GW have just kicked the can down the road an extra step. Tournament Play is just the new Matched Play, Matched Play is Narrative and Narrative may as well be playing 3rd edition with some mates and a beer. 

In Victoria, Australia, outside of this 'gaming with friends' which as we keep summoning up children and families, gets harder to have Jonno round on a wednesday night for a beer and some dice etc, I know a lot of my boys 'save up' brownie points to go for a weekend trip. These are usually touranments. They may be a dick kicker tournament, they may be a beer hammer tournament, but either way they will 99% of the time be running Tournament (8th/9th Matched Play) rules just to make the EO's lives easier. 

If most of these big tournaments you're going to are gonna be your main chance to use your mandollies (doesn't matter if your army is the bleeding edge or not) you're going to build towards those, and you and your mates, on the odd occasions you get to play, are going to build toward that also (I know an event, no matter for what system always gets my boys back on the hobby horse). And what format is gonna have the most widely avaialbe games to play in, you guessed it Tournament (8th/9th Matched Play) rules.

So specifically disallowing Legends form Tournament Rules, is the equivalent of in 8th/9th saying they can't be used in Matched Play. And again, outside of this ephemeral 'gaming with mates' you need to abide by the 'norm', which, you guessed it, is going to be Tournament (8th/9th Matched Play) rules.

You can flip also gang, if 95% of the events around me where running Narrative, I'd build my army toward a Narrative-compatible setting, but if Legends where disallowed in Narrative, well that would knacker me wouldn't it. 

So we can all keep getting into the semantics, WAAC, 'but theres other ways to play', sure, there is, but 90% of the time, the most common, 'easiest' way to get a game will to be use whatever is the 'broader' ruleset and that will be Tournament (8th/9th Matched Play) rules. 

Again Tournament (8th/9th Matched Play) lists doesn't mean its a facestomper, thats what the special WAAC or Meta list wording is for, a Tournament (8th/9th Matched Play) compatible list could be fluff as all heck, get stomped on all the time, but it will be usable in 95% of pick up matches and local events. 

[Rain]

23 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

I wonder if this will hurt HH sales too. I don't just mean from 40K, but I liked the cross over and was more inclined to buy from both lines. I now feel forced to choose only a single game system to concentrate on. (Financially I can't afford both and finding opponents for HH is tough in my area, so...)

This will definitely hurt HH sales. I have no intent of starting a HH army because an “oops, all marines!” setting doesn’t interest me, but I was going to buy Vindicator Laser Destroyer as soon as I learned how 10th would handle HH units. Now I won’t. I probably would have ended up buying a Kratos or Sicaran sooner or later as well. Also not happening now. I’m sure I’m not the only one.

[phandaal]

36 minutes ago, Bloody Legionnaire said:

 

So tell me, is that GWs intent, or is that the community's response? 

Anything other than GW's direct intent falls to the community, which is precisely why I am highlighting tournament play. It is a community problem. Two players who have the inability or the lack of social skills to work something out to the point that they require the "most current, patched, official, indisputable" set of rules, just to have a regular game of play (outside of a tournament setting), is the problem.  That problem, does not stem from the rules themselves, that problem stems from the community. 

Maybe you all need to be focusing more on the most important rule...

 

 

This is irrelevant though. The fact that the mindset does exist is the important part.

 

Wherever the mindset comes from, it exists, it is prevalent, and it means that Legends is a graveyard for units that will soon be obsolete.

[Lord_Ikka]

Tournament rules are what they are- GW has made it clear that they aren't allowing Legends in their tournaments. If FLG/most other major tournament organizers follow suit, then Legends won't be allowed. That is what will happen regardless of player opinion. 

 

Lets look at the models going into Legends and see what will actually be impacted as far as tournament lists (9th ed) go- 

 

SM - They lose the Leviathan and Contemptor dreads. Those are pretty much the only units from those going into Legends that ever saw serious play in tournaments, aside from the Scorpius Whirlwind/maybe the Kratos for a short time. Everything else was used in either someone running a fun, themed list or trying out some sort of edge list. 

Chaos - Lost the Decimator and Dreadclaw droppod. The Decimator does hurt, as it was a reliable way to mortal-wound bomb your opponent into oblivion and the Dreadclaw gave some flexibility to droppod lists by being able to actually move. Nothing else had an impact in tournaments. 

AdMech - Lost the Terrax, as did Chaos/some other Imp forces. It was useful, a good way to move electro-priests around without getting shot up, but still isn't something that will break the army. Secutarii were ok but never really lived up to their potential. 

 

Is it disappointing, yes, because everyone wants to be able to play with all their cool models at all times. Is it expected, sort of. I expected some sort of Legends-purge for some HH stuff that was specifically FW, didn't quite expect some of the more popular models like dreads or other plastic models to be going though. I think it will probably impact their HH sales more than they wish, as HH doesn't seem to be nearly as popular as 40k and a lot of the HH models that people I know bought were specifically for 40k. 

[sockwithaticket]

8 hours ago, Rain said:

 

Well, the article opens with:

 

 

So it right away primes you for the disingenuous lore argument. That said, I understand that it was not the only justification, and perhaps not the primary justification provided by GW. It was obviously not the actual reason that this was done either, which is my point. That said, the combination of unfavorable news for annoying real-world tourney balance reasons combined with the disingenuous "well akhtually, these are very rare..." cherry on top made the Nails bite.

Yeah it's clearly just that they don't want to do a pass on rules for all these things.

If it was actually about retconning exactly how scarce and rarely used they are, it's incredibly easy to come up with something like 0-1 relics per 1000 points (if that's even how army lists work these days, I haven't kept up with the rules side for years and years). I forget which edition, but you used to need to have a Reclusiarch to be able to select a relic from the armoury. I always felt it should be a techmarine or a commander, but the notion of certain ranks of character allowing access to the chapter's most revered war machines is fluffy and an easy rule.

Even though I don't play, stuff like this punches my hobby motivation in the face.

[spessmarine]

The line about stagnation and attempting to play it to the setting is funny given we've got Cawl running around, warehouses of marines 2.0, 5 primarchs running around at the same time, and past awkwardness like shoeing in centurion suits. I don't mind exciting changes, but playing the sanctity of the setting line is a day late and a dollar short.

 

Referring it to as the abandoned or soft-delete is absolutely valid.

 

Quote

It’s important to also note that they won’t receive changes or balance updates as the edition develops and the meta shifts.

 

So if they undershoot and it ends up bad, they overshoot it and you feel bad about running it, or it flat out becomes unusable due to some rules errata, you cannot expect anything.

 

It's also funny that after a year of hyping people up about the new plastics, now more accessible than ever, is when they get yanked and not when buying them was more a pain. They kept the Custodes resin, I'm not saying that Custodes should lose it, but when you want to pitch reducing complexity/rules messiness I'd say the faction that is half FW is the bigger fish.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

17 minutes ago, phandaal said:

 

This is irrelevant though. The fact that the mindset does exist is the important part.

 

Wherever the mindset comes from, it exists, it is prevalent, and it means that Legends is a graveyard for units that will soon be obsolete.

 

It's absolutely relevant, it just may not be of any consequence which is what I think you're getting at. 

Also just because the mindset exists and is prevalent doesn't mean it will never change. It certainly can change... 

[Plaguecaster]

To all those saying oh its fine no issue just do matched and discus with opponents don't play competitive

Remember how well that worked for power levels previously even though gw "recommended" them to play but large majority refused due to balance issues free weapons etc 

Edited June 2, 2023 by Plaguecaster

[phandaal]

5 minutes ago, Bloody Legionnaire said:

 

It's absolutely relevant, it just may not be of any consequence which is what I think you're getting at. 

Also just because the mindset exists and is prevalent doesn't mean it will never change. It certainly can change... 

 

I would be very happy if people would be more adventurous with the games they play, as someone without one of those legendary groups that are up for anything. Do not think it will change any time soon, but it certainly would be nice.

[Gederas]

This whole thread is a YIKES.

 

I'll only respond to one this and then run:

  

4 hours ago, Kallas said:

Seriously??

 

People can play at tournaments for fun you know? Winning is not the only goal of playing in a tournament. Again, I'll use my own experience as an example: I took a triple Land Raider list to a tournament in October 2022. I did not expect to win, I did not expect to even do well. I intended to play competitive games with people with the competitive mindset and to have fun doing so - my goal was very much acheived, as I played 5/6 games where they were interesting and pretty balanced, as well as some of the nicest people. Only one game was not enjoyable, and that was against someone who ended up somewhere in the top three (I can't quite remember) and simply demolished me through extremely good play, while my limited list couldn't punch back - because of the build limitations I had imposed on myself when choosing to run suboptimal units.

On the flip-side, I've been witness to GREASY, BEARDY neckberd style nonsense at tournaments. "Timing out a match to win a tournament's final round by spending twelve minutes to decide where Celestine spawns after revive" was the one that will forever stick with me. The worst moment I personally experienced was the "Scions Valkyrie Spam boxing me in turn 1 and the all-plasma squads annihilating my transports, then my guys" because you know, in 8e you couldn't move over flyer bases.

 

Some people play tournaments to have fun, others only have fun by WINNING, And that's the issue. People remember the scumbags more than the cool people, because the scumbags get burned into your memory.

Edited June 2, 2023 by Gederas

[spessmarine]

11 minutes ago, Plaguecaster said:

To all those saying oh its fine no issue just do matched and discus with opponents don't play competitive

Remember how well that worked for power levels previously even though gw "recommended" them to play but large majority refused due to balance issues free weapons etc 

 

Yeah, having to negotiate to play with what you've bought and expended multiple hours on isn't exactly an enjoyable prospect.

Given there is no re-balancing, if your unit was broken then you're outta luck :shrug:

[Gederas]

Missed this one in my post:

 

2 hours ago, Marshal Rohr said:

It’s good GW is clearly and specifically drawing a line between matched play (pick up games) and competitive (organized tournaments). A lot of ‘sky is falling’ would be avoided if people would just read what they put in the article. Most games are not in tournament settings and there’s no reason to expect a pick up game to abide by formal rules for an intrinsically informal type of game. 

So the issue is this. Someone at my FLGS posted a comment on in response to me saying the Legends rules are still legal for games, and sums up one of the MAJOR issues with the mindset of "Comp play = only way to play", with these words:

"If they are not tournament legal, they are not matched play legal."

 

That right there is the crux of the issue, no? People think this, and apparently it's a common sentiment, which is where this whole debate and argument stems from.

Edited June 2, 2023 by Gederas

[Talbaz]

I never play a single tournament nor matched play game of 9th the whole edition, only ever play Crusade. I also stopped playing with Pts about half way through 8th.

 

This doesn't effect me at all *shurg* moving on.

[madlibrarian]

Remember guys, make sure you email your thoughts to GW customer service email address. That’s the way this’ll change.

[spessmarine]

9 minutes ago, madlibrarian said:

Remember guys, make sure you email your thoughts to GW customer service email address. That’s the way this’ll change.

 

Checked the Facebook post for the article, was over 1300 comments, definitely a big topic.

 

Given some of these are new kits from a year ago, some that they've been hyping up for 40k plenty, and even acknowledged all the Chaos requests for their Kratos, this is understandably not making people happy.

If they were kits no longer produced it'd be understandable to retire them in a sense, but they are new, been part of 40k a while now, and finally have become accessible. Something like jetbikes once plastic still not being usable is fine as that is maintaining a long running stance. This on the other hand is a flip-flop years in.

Edited June 2, 2023 by spessmarine

[armarnis]

I Hope they Stop that obnoxious upselling of heresy Models to the 40k crowd in upcoming reveal Show then

[Captain Idaho]

This new Knight Cerastus might sell a lot worse than they think, as might these Titans in the faction focus. 

 

People won't want to risk buying expensive models they can no longer use in most of their games.

[Matcap86]

Just now, Captain Idaho said:

This new Knight Cerastus might sell a lot worse than they think, as might these Titans in the faction focus. 

 

People won't want to risk buying expensive models they can no longer use in most of their games.

Yeah I don't really have a horse in this race as I'm mostly a collector/kitchentable player, but this seems just a dumb move costing them sales.