Wh40k 10th Edition Space Marine Index

[Captain Idaho]

Cor the biggest disappointment in this Index is Vanguard. They're so weak now and don't even represent the weapons they might have - double lightning Claws? Nah.

 

Now Assault Marines are better equipped with melee weapons, unless you're trying to blend a horde.

 

Sternguard can't go in Rhinos... big mistake there. They need to be in 10s to really take advantage of the Devastating Wounds ability they have on all their bolt weapons. So it's Drop Pods or nothing, as people surely won't fork out points for a Land Raider or Repulsor just for 8-10 Sternguard now?

 

Silly.

[Scribe]

13 minutes ago, Evil Eye said:

Generally speaking, if additions to a system (whatever that may be) make it worse, you remove the additions before removing any core elements in order to fix things.

 

You would be correct, if not for the fact the Primaris are clearly intended to be a replacement of the SM range, not an 'addition'.

 

It cant be any more clear now that we have the upgraded Terminators and Sternguard. Primaris were always just a poorly hidden/implemented range refresh.

[Bradeh]

19 minutes ago, Evil Eye said:

He's not wrong. Orange Knight has a history of suggesting that the Space Marine roster is bloated (which it is) and the solution is to remove Firstborn entirely despite the problem being caused by the introduction of mechanically redundant new units that fail at even being straight updates to the classic units.

 

Generally speaking, if additions to a system (whatever that may be) make it worse, you remove the additions before removing any core elements in order to fix things. This isn't limited to wargames either; if you have an armoured vehicle of some form equipped with a main gun and one or two auxiliary weapons, and it's been reliable for years with this basic configuration, if you decide to modernize it with new features including two more auxiliary weapons that provide no real improvement to its ability to perform its intended role, and the modernization programme makes it perform worse in part due to the requirement to stow more ammunition for secondary weapons of marginal use, if you were to make further alterations to fix this problem you wouldn't remove the reliable and effective main gun to make room for more ammo for those secondary weapons- you'd strip back the additional systems that had been implemented in the problematic "upgrade" until the vehicle worked as intended again, starting with the useless extra weapons. You might keep the improved environmental controls and new IED protection system because they add something genuinely beneficial to the vehicle, but you wouldn't trade out the main armament of the vehicle for 2 new machine-gun stations that the crew are barely able to use and require a different ammunition standard to the existing machine-guns, which are supposedly more advanced but provide no real benefit over the tried and true munitions already in use.

 

The parallels are quite similar actually- thanks to the writing of the new rules, you have new, more "advanced" models of debatable appeal over their classic brethren that are not fully compatible with the existing range for no very good reason (seriously, why can a Primaris Chaplain not lead a Firstborn squad? Why does there even need to be a rules difference between a Primaris and Firstborn Chaplain at this point given the levels of homogenization we've seen elsewhere?) and are replacing core parts of the original range with alternatives that do not fully match up to their original counterparts at all, and instead of reducing redundancies by combining datasheets in such a way that a datasheet can represent either (for example, I'd be happy if they rolled Intercessors into the Tactical Squad datasheet such that you can run all-Firstborn, all-Primaris or mixed squads with zero impact on actual gameplay- an Intercessor Squad currently just being a Tactical Squad that can't take special weapons seems very redundant and given the trend for abstraction of wargear, I see no reason why Primaris and Firstborn boltguns need to be different) you have Orange Knight and others suggesting you effectively trade the main gun for some extra machine-guns with incompatible ammo. And ironically the reason why GW is pushing this is the same reason the manufacturer of such a hypothetical new MG would push this- they get to sell new hardware and force everyone to adopt their thing as the standard, thus meaning everyone has to upgrade their fleet to keep up, and making Guns Workstation a lot of money in the process, even if the soldiers in the field absolutely hate the new gun and would much rather have the reliable previous model.

 

I also feel they really could condense the bloated datasheets by simply condensing a lot of them into a single sheet with different wargear options. For the Chaplain for example, you could easily just have a Chaplain datasheet that looks something like this:

CHAPLAIN:
[Chaplain profile]

[Terminator Chaplain profile]

[Chaplain on bike profile]

[Chaplain with jump pack profile]

"The Chaplain is equipped with a Crozius Arcanum and Bolt Pistol."

WARGEAR OPTIONS:
"The Chaplain may replace his bolt pistol with [options here]"

"The Chaplain may take a bike- he gains the Mounted keyword and uses the Chaplain on bike profile above."

OR

"The Chaplain may take a jump pack- he gains the Fly and Jump Pack keywords and uses the Chaplain with jump pack profile above."

"The Chaplain may take Terminator Armour- he gains the Terminator keyword and uses the Terminator Chaplain profile above, and replaces his bolt pistol with a storm bolter."

"A Chaplain in Terminator Armour may replace his Storm Bolter with [options here]"

"The Chaplain may take one of the following abilities in addition to Litany of Hate: [the different additional abilities that each Chaplain has]"

 

Honestly, this sort of "open-ended" datasheet seems like a much better option. More flexible, more permitting of both conversions and older minis without making those necessities, and whilst yes the individual datasheet is bigger, it's not hopelessly complicated or confusing, and certainly preferable to five separate datasheets.

 

Orange Knight is being pragmatic that's why. At the end of the day it all comes down the famous saying of, it is what it is. GW doesn't want you converting and mixing, that's why they have gone to this system, no model no rules and limited wargear options Primaris range. They want to build what's in the box and play it. Do I like it? No, but Primaris is here to stay and is the future of the range. So unless GW is going to balance 200+ units something has to change or go. 

 

Quote

Sternguard can't go in Rhinos... big mistake there. They need to be in 10s to really take advantage of the Devastating Wounds ability they have on all their bolt weapons. So it's Drop Pods or nothing, as people surely won't fork out points for a Land Raider or Repulsor just for 8-10 Sternguard now?

 

Yeah, they look like that are designed to be used to Impulsor firing out the top or Repulsor protecting them. I'm sure there will be clever ways to use them. 

Edited June 9, 2023 by Bradeh

[Dark Shepherd]

Might have to recheck this but Phobos Librarian attached to a unit of Eliminators is going to take a lot effort to, emm, eliminate

[Sgt John Keel]

If you choose to take a flamer/melta/plasma gun with an Assault Marine, you replace both your chainsword and bolt pistol.

 

Assault Marines don't come base with a close combat weapon and have no "basic" assault profile.

 

Am I missing something, or can those assault marines not fight in close combat?

[spessmarine]

Definitely a bit miffed, apparently the Leviathan and Spartan are just too much bloat and getting in the way of the precious 7 different land speeders

That and the

Guy

Guy in X armour

Guy with Y

Guy on a Z

Guy in his Sunday Best

is ridiculous.

[Ezekyle_Abaddon]

Is it just me or does the venerable dreadnought no longer have a separate datasheet? If so that would be really annoying considering they discontinued the regular dreadnought but not the venerable one but they have a datasheet for the regular one.

 

I always liked that they had two separate profiles because it made the venerable one feel like a relic of the chapter and not just a bog-standard war machine.

[Ammonius]

3 hours ago, sandrorect said:

They maybe think if primaris can go in rhino there is no reason for us to buy impulsors.

I think you may be right.

Which is odd because that "Firing Deck 6" makes Impulsors pretty darn attractive to me. A rhino having a bigger transport capacity and self-repair is also compelling.

They have the solution in place already in my opinion.

[Evil Eye]

6 minutes ago, Bradeh said:

GW doesn't want you converting and mixing

See here's the problem, and that's assuming we should just go along with what GW wants us to do because they say so. They have no actual power over us, ESPECIALLY nowadays. Even if you ignore 3D printers in their entirety (which would be folly given just how accessible and powerful they've become, and are becoming even more so exponentially), "GW doesn't want" bears practically zero weight. In fact, even if you ignore non-GW minis entirely and simply focus on conversions based on GW models, the same holds true. There's plenty of miniatures-agnostic rulesets available online (some setting-agnostic, some "totally-not-40k" and some that are 100% "40K except how we want it" and available for free) and the number is growing steadily- and because these rulesets are not funded by a miniatures range, and in many cases not funded at all and just developed out of a love of tabletop games, they are not handicapped by the need to sell plastic to exist. As long as the PDFs for the rules can be circulated (which in the internet age is effectively eternally) the ruleset is alive. And if you're not playing in a GW store they cannot force you to play using their rules.

 

This isn't me trying to make some kind of misguided stick it to the man ROW ROW FIGHT THE POWER statement either, it's just the truth. If I were to develop an alternative ruleset for 40K which caters to people disenfranchised by the modern direction of the game and release it for free- which I very well might- then why should someone who prefers that style of game over what GW is making play 10th as opposed to my or anyone else's, not bigging myself up here alternative? Nobody is obligated to enjoy the hobby as GW dictates they must. If I for instance want to run a Dreadnought with twin autocannons using the old FW parts, something not currently allowed as of this index, and someone makes "Advanced Warhammer 40,000" as a free system which allows me to do just that, if A40K is good and I have a like-minded opponent who also enjoys it then I'll play that instead of 10th, and there is nothing GW can do to stop that. Hell, it's not without precedent; there's a complete "remaster" of Battlefleet Gothic available for free on the web (with assistance from former GW legends including Andy Chambers!) after all. And honestly, GW wouldn't have a leg to stand on if they complained about it; if the rules were made free they wouldn't be able to make accusations of profiting off of their IP (there being no profits made), and their argument would basically boil down to them being upset about people not playing 10th edition...an argument which collapses completely given that you can't force people to engage with a product (after all, someone with zero interest in wargaming is guilty of the same "crime" as someone who loves 40K who plays this hypothetical alternate system). In fact, one could even argue that the existence of an alternate system that appeals to people who don't like 10th but do like 40K would increase their model sales, given that these same people would have an incentive to buy their models in spite of their dislike of their rules.

 

If I want to model a unit with a loadout that GW doesn't like, there's absolutely nothing GW can do to stop me or anyone else from doing that, and the sooner more people realize that the better. The days of GW being able to lock people into their "ecosystem" are effectively already over, with the only remaining shackles being people just not realizing they have options. If GW want to make people use their rules, they have to make their rules something people want to use. Otherwise, people will go elsewhere.

 

Like I say, this isn't some kind of rage against the machine styled rant- if you like 10th, that's fine. But the way certain posters seem to act like GW is right to do what they want because GW wants to do it and GW is always right and we should just accept it is a little tiresome. Because no, nobody has to accept it- if they don't like it then they're more than welcome to say as much and are also more than welcome to point people to other options. I've seen posters who shall remain nameless chastise people doing such for "enabling IP theft", and even aside from modern IP law being an absolute joke, the idea of accusing someone who wants an alternative product to what GW produces of being a criminal or somehow morally dubious is pretty low, and certainly smacks of having ulterior motives.

 

TLDR: What GW wants doesn't matter. What the player wants is the only thing that matters and if GW does not deliver it, the player is under no obligation to use what GW produces.

[Emicus]

6 hours ago, Arkangilos said:

Overall I am pleased with this. 
The only things I know I'll house rule off the bat:

* Rhinos will be able to take Tacticus an Phobos equipped units.
* Combat Squads.

Why combat squad? 6x5 of each troops choice is insufficient for you? You gotta get that fat 12x5 of each?
 

What's that 60 tacticals, 60 intercessors, 60 infiltrators, 60 incursors and I suppose only 30 devastators but you'd have 15 basic bolter guys there. Vanguard and assault marine spam that isn't big units to take buffs well?

 

I don't think 'rule of 3' should be a concern in your apoc games.

 

Or is this a 'need my special rules thing'? I gotta be missing something.

[OttoVonAwesome]

Setting aside my gripes here since most of them are an overall problem with the edition itself I actually like what I see here. Everything is good has a defining ability that makes basically everything viable. I'm impressed. Different captains and characters boosting different units, tanks all have roles, the dreads are all good in thier own right none of them invalidate another this is pretty cool. Ironclad just slaps and this makes me happier than anything.

 

Now there is one thing though... What in gods name did they do to Vanguard? I'm lucky as in I never invested in them but they all just got beefed up chainswords now? Pure laziness or are they also getting replaced with a dumbed down Primaris kit like the Sternguard did? It's legitmately shocking that the rest of the index can be so good yet there it is. Is they original kit going legends? Will there be a legends datacard for original sternguard? If they are why even include this abomination of a datacard in the first place?

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Am I the only one who thinks that scouts going to 2W was unnecessary?

[Lord_Ikka]

As far as I think, this index works for me. My Primaris-only army seems like it will have some decent punch, and now all of the Assault Intercessors I have will actually see the table with a bunch of Leaders. Swarm o Space Marine!

 

Some issues, but overall I'm not displeased at all. Definitely get the feel that GW is pushing attaching characters to squads as a force multiplier and, depending on points costs, way to sell more characters. If want most of your squads to have some special bonuses, need to buy the characters to give the bonuses....

[sal of manders]

33 minutes ago, Emicus said:

Why combat squad? 6x5 of each troops choice is insufficient for you? You gotta get that fat 12x5 of each?
 

What's that 60 tacticals, 60 intercessors, 60 infiltrators, 60 incursors and I suppose only 30 devastators but you'd have 15 basic bolter guys there. Vanguard and assault marine spam that isn't big units to take buffs well?

 

I don't think 'rule of 3' should be a concern in your apoc games.

 

Or is this a 'need my special rules thing'? I gotta be missing something.

 

The real advantage of combat squads, to me at least, was the limitation on role slots in the force organization charts. As example, if I'm only allowed 3 heavy support slots, and want to take two devastator squads, and a couple predators (or whatever) combat squads let me do that, since I could split the devs. 

 

I don't think we've seen yet anything about force org slots. If they've just gotten rid of them, which I doubt, then I'd agree losing combat squads isn't much of a loss, BUT if slot competition between units is there, then CS being gone starts to mean something.

[SvenIronhand]

1 minute ago, sal of manders said:

 

The real advantage of combat squads, to me at least, was the limitation on role slots in the force organization charts. As example, if I'm only allowed 3 heavy support slots, and want to take two devastator squads, and a couple predators (or whatever) combat squads let me do that, since I could split the devs. 

 

I don't think we've seen yet anything about force org slots. If they've just gotten rid of them, which I doubt, then I'd agree losing combat squads isn't much of a loss, BUT if slot competition between units is there, then CS being gone starts to mean something.

There are no force org slots anymore?

[Sea Creature]

Whose planning on carrying all the cards to play games? I’m just going to bring the ones I need.

Edited June 10, 2023 by Sea Creature

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

23 minutes ago, Lord_Ikka said:

As far as I think, this index works for me. My Primaris-only army seems like it will have some decent punch, and now all of the Assault Intercessors I have will actually see the table with a bunch of Leaders. Swarm o Space Marine!

 

Some issues, but overall I'm not displeased at all. Definitely get the feel that GW is pushing attaching characters to squads as a force multiplier and, depending on points costs, way to sell more characters. If want most of your squads to have some special bonuses, need to buy the characters to give the bonuses....

they do make their money selling models, and i'm sure their biggest profit is from characters

 

[Lord_Ikka]

Just now, SvenIronhand said:

There are no force org slots anymore?

No. The army layout is as follows-

Pick Faction (gives you faction special rules), then Pick Detachment (gives you detachment special rules and may have restrictions on units included)

Then pick units, up to the points limit, per below rules:

1 Required Character

No more than 3 of any one datasheet, except Battleline and Dedicated Transports which are limited to 6 

No more than 1 of any specific Epic Character (i.e.- you can't have more than one named character)

[MithrilForge]

I’m kinda glad I don’t play marines anymore, that’s a hefty amount of pages to download…. Roll on the xenos though 

 

M 

[Medicinal Carrots]

Shooting a unit's hazardous weapons from a transport's firing deck presents an interesting rules interaction. If the transport dies from the MWs, the unit that disembarks afterwards technically hasn't shot, so you can fire those same weapons again. I think 6 Hellblasters in an Impulsor take it as far as marines can go. Overcharge their plasma from the firing deck. If the Impulsor self destructs, any Hellblasters that die disembarking get to shoot, then the Hellblasters unit can shoot, and any who subsequently blow themselves up can shoot yet again. Could make for a fun suicide squad.

[OttoVonAwesome]

21 minutes ago, Medicinal Carrots said:

Shooting a unit's hazardous weapons from a transport's firing deck presents an interesting rules interaction. If the transport dies from the MWs, the unit that disembarks afterwards technically hasn't shot, so you can fire those same weapons again. I think 6 Hellblasters in an Impulsor take it as far as marines can go. Overcharge their plasma from the firing deck. If the Impulsor self destructs, any Hellblasters that die disembarking get to shoot, then the Hellblasters unit can shoot, and any who subsequently blow themselves up can shoot yet again. Could make for a fun suicide squad.

Hellblasters are straight up broken I won't be using them if I can help it.

[Silas7]

12 hours ago, Bradeh said:

 

Yeah, having Reivers in enemies lines being supported will cause havoc. 

 

 Keep an invictor warsuit around to punish whatever is trying to thin your reivers out, some room to play mental games here. Do I focus the Reivers before they reach my lines and take some shots back or do I need to kill/pin-down the warsuits and risk having some squads get shocked and stay shocked.

[bigtrouble]

28 minutes ago, Medicinal Carrots said:

Shooting a unit's hazardous weapons from a transport's firing deck presents an interesting rules interaction. If the transport dies from the MWs, the unit that disembarks afterwards technically hasn't shot, so you can fire those same weapons again. I think 6 Hellblasters in an Impulsor take it as far as marines can go. Overcharge their plasma from the firing deck. If the Impulsor self destructs, any Hellblasters that die disembarking get to shoot, then the Hellblasters unit can shoot, and any who subsequently blow themselves up can shoot yet again. Could make for a fun suicide squad.

Exactly what I want out of this unit! I am hoping against all hope that the Dark Angels release on Monday includes a Plasma Strategem.

[sal of manders]

29 minutes ago, Lord_Ikka said:

No. The army layout is as follows-

Pick Faction (gives you faction special rules), then Pick Detachment (gives you detachment special rules and may have restrictions on units included)

Then pick units, up to the points limit, per below rules:

1 Required Character

No more than 3 of any one datasheet, except Battleline and Dedicated Transports which are limited to 6 

No more than 1 of any specific Epic Character (i.e.- you can't have more than one named character)

 

Ok, so I think I've just gotten so used to force organization slots being there  that not seeing them made me think GW just hadn't given us that part of the rules yet.  That restriction being lifted is going be disorienting in terms of list making.

[Dark Legionnare]

50 minutes ago, Mumeishi said:

I’m kinda glad I don’t play marines anymore, that’s a hefty amount of pages to download…. Roll on the xenos though 

 

M 

"Return of looted wagonz or bust!"