Index: Blood Angels

[Pathstrider]

1 minute ago, Damon Nightman said:

For RAS, if you equip a marine with a flamer, plasma, or melta gun, the gun replaces the chainsword + pistol. Does that mean the marine would lose his close combat attacks since the attack profile is tied to the chainsword specifically instead of the marine's own profile? 

Until an errata, yes.

[Paladin777]

I'd imagine it's the fast moving D2 weapons en-masse that make the SG so expensive. 

Edited June 16, 2023 by Paladin777

[ChapelXIII]

Glad to know I'm not the only person looking at the Sanguinary Guard points and thinking that it seems kind of high. 

[Blindhamster]

Wow, how on earth is Dante 30 points more than helbrecht, 15 more than Azrael and roughly the same cost as Calgar.

[Orblivion]

25 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

Wow, how on earth is Dante 30 points more than helbrecht, 15 more than Azrael and roughly the same cost as Calgar.

 

Character points are definitely weird.  Lemartes costs the same as Dante, but Sanguinor is an extra 25 points over them?

[The Unseen]

That Sanguinary Guard pts cost is a bad joke.

More expensive than 10 Deathwing Terminators.

Hell, that's more than a bloody Knight! Before a leader!

 

[Arkhanist]

So death company with jump packs are now 31 per. In 9th, chainsword JP DC were 23, ones with powerfist and inferno/plasma pistol 28, and thunderhammer 33.

 

So in the new power-level-but-we-called-them-points era, you might as well go for 100% fist&pistol or hammer JP DC, because you're paying for it whether you like it or not, with a side order of PLEASE buy some DC intercessors, they're super cheap!!

 

Guess it's time to get out the craft knife and do some new arms AGAIN*. I'm damn well going to be 3d printing hammers or fists this time though.

 

 

* guess who had 20 bolter & chainsword DC.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

I’d have to compare to previous older codexes to know for sure but back in the day it feels like games had much fewer models on the table for marines, and when I came back in 8th the marine armies seemed absolutely massive by comparison.

so if that is the case just seems like they’re trying to revert to lower model counts.

 

didn't they say they wanted games to go faster in 10th?

fewer models/units to set up and play with less time the game takes up.

[The Unseen]

That logic doesn't hold up when you see very powerful shooting units are still super cheap. 10 Desolaters are only 240 pts. GW won't ever let the *actual* gamesize get smaller, because then you need fewer models.

 

[Pathstrider]

41 minutes ago, Arkhanist said:

So death company with jump packs are now 31 per. In 9th, chainsword JP DC were 23, ones with powerfist and inferno/plasma pistol 28, and thunderhammer 33.

 

So in the new power-level-but-we-called-them-points era, you might as well go for 100% fist&pistol or hammer JP DC, because you're paying for it whether you like it or not, with a side order of PLEASE buy some DC intercessors, they're super cheap!!

 

Guess it's time to get out the craft knife and do some new arms AGAIN*. I'm damn well going to be 3d printing hammers or fists this time though.

 

Yes - they're basically assuming you're going for maximum equipment on the old kits. I guess it'll work out once everything is re-released and has mono-pose/limited options, but it's a a bit of a mess until then. 

[Paladin777]

Sounds like it's time to get out the drill and magnets to me...

 

One thing I will say though is to be very wary about thousand sons with your SG. They can straight-up strip a unit's armor save away pretty much every turn. Just a fair warning. 

Edited June 16, 2023 by Paladin777

[Tokugawa]

9 hours ago, Orblivion said:

 

Character points are definitely weird.  Lemartes costs the same as Dante, but Sanguinor is an extra 25 points over them?

Infinite range "intervention" is very valueable. Before new version, writting a BA 2000pts list would possibly be practically writting a 1840pts list. 

[Paladin777]

Agreed, but the points-per-unit approach still sucks, and I really hope its index only. I'm not holding my breath though...
 

that said, I vaguely remember the 8th indexes being similar. And I insane? Or does anyone else remember it like that too?

Edited June 17, 2023 by Paladin777

[Tokugawa]

11 minutes ago, Paladin777 said:

Agreed, but the points-per-unit approach still sucks, and I really hope its index only. I'm not holding my breath though...
 

that said, I vaguely remember the 8th indexes being similar. And I insane? Or does anyone else remember it like that too?

It is a smooth-ier power level.

[Leonaides]

17 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

I’d have to compare to previous older codexes to know for sure but back in the day it feels like games had much fewer models on the table for marines, and when I came back in 8th the marine armies seemed absolutely massive by comparison.

so if that is the case just seems like they’re trying to revert to lower model counts.

 

didn't they say they wanted games to go faster in 10th?

fewer models/units to set up and play with less time the game takes up.

The big jump in models was 2nd ed to third ed. In trying to move away from hero-hammer they pretty much halved the cost of infantry squads but left characters at more or less the same points. A 10 man tactical squad with no upgrades was 300, went down to 150pts, while a captain remained around 90pts with no upgrades. Interestingly, back in 2nd ed you could only buy full strength squads of 10 marines, it took a wd errata before you could purchase 5 man squads. Sounds familiar...

[Karhedron]

22 hours ago, Paladin777 said:

Dang, SG are 43 points a model! VV are 26, with wargear included. I think VV certainly have a place still!

 

At this point I see no reason not to give every SG a plasma or Inferno pistol. Same with Death Company.

[Paladin777]

And Vanguard Vets. I know a lot of people are salty about them, but at 26 ppm, I think they definitely have their place as a relatively cheap blender unit with some serious staying power if given storm shields.

 

I would say if you're using a small squad a librarian would make a good and cheap buff unit for the additional AP (and a decent melee profile in his own right).

 

If you feel like going whole hog, then a jump captain and jump SG might be the way to go. Not quite as Killy as a fully SG unit, but incredibly more durable, and about the same cost, before the SG even get a character. 
 

Even ork boyz have a 5+ armor now... just saying.

Edited June 17, 2023 by Paladin777

[Blindhamster]

I think a thing I’m struggling with with the sanguinary guard, is that they’re more expensive than terminators but will lose that matchup every single time, terminators ignore the penalties that sanguinary guard impose, so terminators hit as easily and wound more easily and every successful wound kills a sanguinary guard. Sanguinary guard have lower toughness, lower wounds, no invulnerable save and at best deal equivalent damage. 
 

there is absolutely no way that they should cost more points than terminators. Particularly when to get the most out of them, you also have to take one of the most expensive imperial non primarch models in the game.

For what they have/can do, I’d have thought something like 190/380 maybe and even that seems a tad excessive for such a fragile unit

[Pathstrider]

I can see a small premium for the jump packs - but we can measure that by looking at other units with jump packs, which is on 2-4pts per model

 

I can only think it's a the banner that's doing it - they are literally adding in the equivalent cost of a banner bearer character, but even that should only be around 50 points or so at most?

[Blindhamster]

And if that were the case, the cost shouldn’t double. It’s bonkers and honestly makes them feel like a bad choice, hilariously, as others said, vanguard seem the better pick now - which is impressive 

[Goranged]

46 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

I think a thing I’m struggling with with the sanguinary guard, is that they’re more expensive than terminators but will lose that matchup every single time, terminators ignore the penalties that sanguinary guard impose, so terminators hit as easily and wound more easily and every successful wound kills a sanguinary guard. Sanguinary guard have lower toughness, lower wounds, no invulnerable save and at best deal equivalent damage. 
 

there is absolutely no way that they should cost more points than terminators. Particularly when to get the most out of them, you also have to take one of the most expensive imperial non primarch models in the game.

For what they have/can do, I’d have thought something like 190/380 maybe and even that seems a tad excessive for such a fragile unit

incredible but GW is bad at math and not even helping themselves with ChatGPT :-(

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, Blindhamster said:

I think a thing I’m struggling with with the sanguinary guard, is that they’re more expensive than terminators but will lose that matchup every single time, terminators ignore the penalties that sanguinary guard impose, so terminators hit as easily and wound more easily and every successful wound kills a sanguinary guard. Sanguinary guard have lower toughness, lower wounds, no invulnerable save and at best deal equivalent damage. 
 

there is absolutely no way that they should cost more points than terminators. Particularly when to get the most out of them, you also have to take one of the most expensive imperial non primarch models in the game.

For what they have/can do, I’d have thought something like 190/380 maybe and even that seems a tad excessive for such a fragile unit

Well the answer here is there’s a new terminator kit they want to sell.

[xxxjtmxxx]

maybe we are going without sangguard and more firstborne dc? i could imagine an all firstborne army doing well as blood angels. 

[Paladin777]

To a large degree, sure. I'm not sold that 10 man tac squads are going to be economical though. You need OC somewhere!

Edited June 17, 2023 by Paladin777

[Karhedron]

6 minutes ago, xxxjtmxxx said:

maybe we are going without sangguard and more firstborne dc? i could imagine an all firstborne army doing well as blood angels. 

 

You have a good point. 31 ppm is a lot cheaper than a Sanguard and can take Fist/Hammer and Inferno Pistol for those points. They don't get the 2+ armour but they do get a 6+ FNP so they aren't a whole lot more fragile.

 

Back them up with Jump Vanvets with Shields for 26ppm for tanking heavy opponents. Lead them with a Jump SangPriest and they are S5 Ap-2 with a 3+/4++/5+++ and you can still add Dante or a Captain.