Index: Blood Angels

[xxxjtmxxx]

ok, thats a point. but assault squads have oc2.

4 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

 

You have a good point. 31 ppm is a lot cheaper than a Sanguard and can take Fist/Hammer and Inferno Pistol for those points. They don't get the 2+ armour but they do get a 6+ FNP so they aren't a whole lot more fragile.

 

Back them up with Jump Vanvets with Shields for 26ppm for tanking heavy opponents. Lead them with a Jump SangPriest and they are S5 Ap-2 with a 3+/4++/5+++ and you can still add Dante or a Captain.

great plan. i think this will be my go with them.

 

only question is, are 2  squads of devastators with grav enough for vehicles?

Edited June 17, 2023 by xxxjtmxxx

[Karhedron]

6 minutes ago, Paladin777 said:

To a large degree, sure. I'm not sold that 10 man tac squads are going to be economical though. You need OC somewhere!

 

You don't have to go Primaris-free, just Primaris-lite 

 

The Phobos range has some good options. An Infiltrator squad with Phobos Libby are great for plonking on a mid-field Objective and they cannot be shot from outside 12" and the enemy cannot DS within 12 either. The Libby can chuck some Smites and is pretty handy in melee.

 

Scout Snipers make good backfield Objective campers. They are only 15ppm but now have 2 Wounds and also cannot be targeted outside 12". Their guns are now S4 Ap-2 2D which is pretty decent. If you opponent wants to deal with either squad, he will have to come and assault them at which point the Sanguinor Leeroy Jenkins in to save the day. 

[Karhedron]

OK, I think there are enough good ideas floating around to start the basics of a list.

 

160 Sanguinor

 

135 Lemartes

310 10 Death company with Jump Packs

 

135 Dante

110 Sanguinary Priest with Jump Pack

260 10 Vanvets with Jump Packs

 

150 10 Sniper Scouts

115 3 Inceptors (mobile fire support and late Objective grabbing)

 

75 Librarian in Phobos Armour

90 5 Infiltrators

 

120 5 Devastators (probably lascannons as we will need some anti-tank)

 

125 Whirlwind (for indirect and supression)

205 Vindicator (more anti-tank and can fire in melee for lols)

 

1990 Total

 

This list has plenty of scope for messing about with things but packs a fairly hefty punch. You can run it as GSF or SoS. It has enough units to grab Objectives, enough firepower to deal with a variety of opponents and plenty of mobility. If a unit gets cornered, the Sanguinor can swoop in to rescue them and then just go mental on a flank.

 

Plenty of scope for mixing up units but I think it is a solid Starter for 10(th).

[Blindhamster]

On 6/17/2023 at 7:53 PM, xxxjtmxxx said:

ok, thats a point. but assault squads have oc2.

uhh... no, no they don't.

 

On 6/17/2023 at 8:11 PM, Karhedron said:

OK, I think there are enough good ideas floating around to start the basics of a list.

 

160 Sanguinor

 

135 Lemartes

310 10 Death company with Jump Packs

 

135 Dante

110 Sanguinary Priest with Jump Pack

260 10 Vanvets with Jump Packs

 

150 10 Sniper Scouts

115 3 Inceptors (mobile fire support and late Objective grabbing)

 

75 Librarian in Phobos Armour

90 5 Infiltrators

 

120 5 Devastators (probably lascannons as we will need some anti-tank)

 

125 Whirlwind (for indirect and supression)

205 Vindicator (more anti-tank and can fire in melee for lols)

 

1990 Total

 

This list has plenty of scope for messing about with things but packs a fairly hefty punch. You can run it as GSF or SoS. It has enough units to grab Objectives, enough firepower to deal with a variety of opponents and plenty of mobility. If a unit gets cornered, the Sanguinor can swoop in to rescue them and then just go mental on a flank.

 

Plenty of scope for mixing up units but I think it is a solid Starter for 10(th).

honestly, it looks like a too many eggs in one basket list that would struggle in the objective game. Not a single OC2 unit included (well, i guess the SG will be due to banner).

 

nearly half the armies points in the first 18 models too... How on earth would that deal with something like the sort of nid lists seen here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlvhMnQUaLM

[Karhedron]

Just now, Blindhamster said:

honestly, it looks like a too many eggs in one basket list that would struggle in the objective game. Not a single OC2 unit included (well, i guess the SG will be due to banner).

 

The enemy cannot contest Objectives if I have killed them all in glorious melee! 

  

Just now, Blindhamster said:

nearly half the armies points in the first 18 models too... How on earth would that deal with something like the sort of nid lists seen here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlvhMnQUaLM

 

OK, that is quite a lot of bugs. What would you change?

[Blindhamster]

I really don't know, scratching my head a lot at how you're supposed to get the killyness to actually defeat a list like that for marines. The Blood Angels literally got shot off the table... by nids. lol.

 

But it might be a good basic benchmark of the sort of thing you might face, nids are likely to be popular this edition!

 

On 6/17/2023 at 8:18 PM, Karhedron said:

The enemy cannot contest Objectives if I have killed them all in glorious melee! 

This I approve though, for Sanguinius and the Emperor!

 

p.s. I think whirlwinds are going to be popular, their rules seem pretty great

[Paladin777]

Re: that tyranids list.

 

I think bolter inceptors will be strong picks with TL and SH2. Their overall damage output should be nearly identical to their 9th edition counterparts, despite having less shots out of the gate. That'll put the hurt on smaller bugs.
 

Intercessors would probably be much more useful than heavy intercessors against smaller bugs as well. Still has 3+ to wound, leaving 6+ saves, with both assault for mobility and heavy for a damage boost once on objectives, for cheaper. Being fully effective out to 24" is nothing to sneeze at either. 
 

heavy intercessors probably have their place, but tyranids are a hard matchup for them.
 

Aggressors are also fine picks for lots of dakka, and pack a pretty decent punch in melee against many things. 
 

As far as the big bugs go... that's where I'm struggling. Considering how undercosted it is, the ballistus dreadnaught is probably a solid pick. 
 

eradicators in reserves are probably also a good pick. They might wound the big bugs on 5's and not have as many shots as they used to, but having full rerolls (including damage rolls!) without OoM goes a long way!

 

Perhaps full lascannon predators might have a place again... they seem cheap enough to maybe be usable. 
 

also, desolation squads will do what they do, cheaply!

 

VV in a BA army are also decent multipurpose blenders, especially with an attached librarian or SP. 

Edited June 17, 2023 by Paladin777

[Blindhamster]

Kinda think going heavy on expensive characters is a trap for us, our characters are on average more expensive than any other marine chapter (excluding primarchs), we are probably better off with one of the big point ones and then sticking to cheaper things like lieutenants etc

[Goranged]

4 hours ago, Paladin777 said:

Re: that tyranids list.

 

I think bolter inceptors will be strong picks with TL and SH2. Their overall damage output should be nearly identical to their 9th edition counterparts, despite having less shots out of the gate. That'll put the hurt on smaller bugs.
 

Intercessors would probably be much more useful than heavy intercessors against smaller bugs as well. Still has 3+ to wound, leaving 6+ saves, with both assault for mobility and heavy for a damage boost once on objectives, for cheaper. Being fully effective out to 24" is nothing to sneeze at either. 
 

heavy intercessors probably have their place, but tyranids are a hard matchup for them.
 

Aggressors are also fine picks for lots of dakka, and pack a pretty decent punch in melee against many things. 
 

As far as the big bugs go... that's where I'm struggling. Considering how undercosted it is, the ballistus dreadnaught is probably a solid pick. 
 

eradicators in reserves are probably also a good pick. They might wound the big bugs on 5's and not have as many shots as they used to, but having full rerolls (including damage rolls!) without OoM goes a long way!

 

Perhaps full lascannon predators might have a place again... they seem cheap enough to maybe be usable. 
 

also, desolation squads will do what they do, cheaply!

 

VV in a BA army are also decent multipurpose blenders, especially with an attached librarian or SP. 

 

Inceptors have now 1x pair of weapons not, 2x plasmas, that's why they are cheap, right?

[Orblivion]

It's kinda sad that talking about Drop Pods feels nostalgic to me, but what does everyone think about Mephiston and a squad of Assault Intercessors coming in via Drop Pod?  Or go full old school and drop Tycho with a Command Squad?

Edited June 18, 2023 by Orblivion

[Goranged]

42 minutes ago, Orblivion said:

It's kinda sad that talking about Drop Pods feels nostalgic to me, but what does everyone think about Mephiston and a squad of Assault Intercessors coming in via Drop Pod?  Or go full old school and drop Tycho with a Command Squad?

 

I was thinking about that too but there are two problems:

 

1. Drops has capacity 10, not 11.

2. One single dropod unit will be targeted with overwatch turn 1 and there are some powerful "Lethal Hits" or flamers combos already.

 

What about saturation and alpha strike with: the drop pod + adding Libby Dread dropping someone close turn 1 like 10 man assault termies with a Termie chaplain plus several MSU Jump Units moving as fast as possible turn 1, that way the opponent would have to split fire, making turn 1 alpha strike units more reliable.

Edited June 18, 2023 by Goranged

[Paladin777]

@Gorangedyes, inceptors have only one TL weapon now. However, with Sustained hits 2 on the bolters, their output is identical against t3 and t4 targets (I did the math) as compared to 9th, and is actually better when firing at t5+!

 

the plasma inceptors are just a lot different than they were 

 

instead of averaging 4 shots with d1 (d2 while overcharging), they're now 2 TL shots at d2 (d3 while overcharging). So overall still decent, imo. 

Edited June 18, 2023 by Paladin777

[Orblivion]

13 minutes ago, Goranged said:

 

I was thinking about that too but the problem is one single unit will be targeted with overwatch turn 1 and there are some powerful "Lethal Hits" or flamers combos already.

 

What about saturation and alpha strike with: the drop pod + adding Libby Dread dropping someone close turn 1 like 10 man assault termies with a Termie chaplain plus several MSU Jump Units moving as fast as possible turn 1, that way the opponent would have to split fire, making turn 1 alpha strike units more reliable.

 

Absolutely, I was thinking about it in terms of making sure Mephiston keeps pace with the rest of the army, most of whom will have Jump Packs for added movement if not their own Deep Strike.  It won't present as much pressure as Dante with SG/VV or Death Company because of the squad size restriction, but used in tandem with a few other squads to push the enemy's lines I think it could be nice.

[Goranged]

26 minutes ago, Paladin777 said:

@Gorangedyes, inceptors have only one TL weapon now. However, with Sustained hits 2 on the bolters, their output is identical against t3 and t4 targets (I did the math) as compared to 9th, and is actually better when firing at t5+!

 

the plasma inceptors are just a lot different than they were 

 

instead of averaging 4 shots with d1 (d2 while overcharging), they're now 2 TL shots at d2 (d3 while overcharging). So overall still decent, imo. 

 

Interesting. I'm doing the same for antitank options. It seems to me that Gladiator Lancers, Desolation Sq and Firestrike turret are good options:

 

 

Sorry about the bad math, this is just a draft to have a general idea of points per damage.

 

No buff but image an "Incursor" squad in the middle of the field giving +1 hit joined by a Phobos Lib to give Stealth + not been able to be targeted outside 12" that would force the opponent to get closer and provide more meat for us.  

Edited June 18, 2023 by Goranged

[xxxjtmxxx]

First idea for me

 

astorath

10 dc with jump with hammers

 

lemartes

10 dc with jump with e weapon and melta/plasma

 

sang priest with jump

10 VenVets with Jump 

 

10 Assault with Jump

 

Whirlwind

 

Vindicator 

 

Vindicator

 

total 1990

 

maximum aggressive with dc and venvets. i dont know if 2 vindicator are enough for anti tank? maybe not

Edited June 18, 2023 by xxxjtmxxx

[Blindhamster]

whats the objective plan with the above? 10th feels like objectives is even more how you win than normal.

Just hoping to be as killy as possible? I like that it feels like an army with quite a bit of staying power thanks to basically everything having FnP.

 

IMO we will really want at least a couple of battleline units to play the game well, if we want to play up the fighty angle of blood angels, assault intercessors may be where its at.

[xxxjtmxxx]

i want to build firstborne only. forcing bs Tests when you kill more than half the squad to negate oc is the plan 

[Blindhamster]

2 hours ago, xxxjtmxxx said:

i want to build firstborne only. forcing bs Tests when you kill more than half the squad to negate oc is the plan 

Tactical squads may actually be interesting for us, OC2 and the ability to fallback and charge natively means they actually can benefit from our detachment rule without much difficulty, fist or power sword on the sergeant, grav weapons elsewhere seem a good option

[Paladin777]

Tactical might make for decent anti-tank chip damage. The AP on grav guns might be middling, but the sheer number of saves they'll force from Anti-vehicle 2+ is pretty solid. 3D on the grav cannon is quite solid too.

[xxxjtmxxx]

So, changing from second vindicator to grav devastators or quitting the jumper for grav devas?  

 

maybe 2x5 grav devas in drop pod for First or second turn anti tank Power?

Edited June 18, 2023 by xxxjtmxxx

[Paladin777]

I can mathhammer grav-cannon devs vs lascannon devs later if you want. One glaring weakness of grav-guns in general is monsters. If you're relying on gra guns for your anti-big stuff, tyranid monsters will walk all over you.

[Blindhamster]

I think on devs, lascannons is probably better, but on tacticals, grav is.

[Blindhamster]

in the above list... if you dropped astorath and the 10 DC

 

you'd save 410 points...

 

2x5 devastators with lascannons is only 240

1x10 tacticals with grav and a hammer or fist would be 175 for 415

 

which still fits into the list. and doesn't even involve dropping the tank.

 

I've said it once and I think i'll keep saying it, I just don't think going so all in on higher cost characters (100, 135, 110) is necessarily worth it.

If anything, going for a captain with the vanguard may be better too due to the free use of stratagems on them letting them benefit from red rampage on top of their strength 6 on the charge.

[xxxjtmxxx]

9 minutes ago, Paladin777 said:

I can mathhammer grav-cannon devs vs lascannon devs later if you want. One glaring weakness of grav-guns in general is monsters. If you're relying on gra guns for your anti-big stuff, tyranid monsters will walk all over you.

would be cool.

 

at the moment i dont like static gameplay with bloods, but maybe devastators with las are the solution.

 

i think, the dc squads are on there own very killy, the Vanvets need help. So targets for oom are vehicles.

1 minute ago, Blindhamster said:

in the above list... if you dropped astorath and the 10 DC

 

you'd save 410 points...

 

2x5 devastators with lascannons is only 240

1x10 tacticals with grav and a hammer or fist would be 175 for 415

 

which still fits into the list. and doesn't even involve dropping the tank.

 

I've said it once and I think i'll keep saying it, I just don't think going so all in on higher cost characters (100, 135, 110) is necessarily worth it.

If anything, going for a captain with the vanguard may be better too due to the free use of stratagems on them letting them benefit from red rampage on top of their strength 6 on the charge.

 yeah good point

[Paladin777]

A now-interesting alternative to lascannon devs at only ten points more might be a tri-las predator. One less shot, but doesn't lose any effectiveness until it hits low wounds. It also still shoots at 3+ on the move. Its shooting also can't be shut down by being charged. 

 

@BlindhamsterPersonally, I'd rather run a SPriest with Vanguard Vets, or Librarian if I'm going cheap. The difference between AP-1 and -2 on the squad is huge!

 

though going whole hog with a priest and captain seems like it could be really nasty! 
 

ten 2w bodies with 3+/4++/5+++ (plus two 4+ W bodies), and 5+ attacks on the charge at S7+ each has its appeal...