Legends of the Horus Heresy

[Arkhanist]

1 hour ago, Noserenda said:

Wasnt the crap contemptor and relic terminators in there? I may well be wrong as i do 99% of list building with waha and battlescribe these days that pull everything together rather more sensibly.

 

So betrayal at calth (2015) was a heresy boxed game that was sold via the main GW site as well as forgeworld IIRC. Technically, it was a basic standalone board game in its own right, though people mainly bought it to get plastic models for heresy 1.0, and some for use in 40k. The individual boxed releases, like the stiff-legged contemptor, mark iv tactical squad and cataphractii box definitely were sold on the GW main site; forgeworld did bundles of them with additional resin heads & torsos too I think. The latter 2 squads are still are up on GW, though there's been a few tweaks such as cataphractii getting reboxed for 2.0 with 10 man and the SoH/Fists transfer sheet. The same happened with burning of prospero in 2016/17 (mark iii, tartaros, sisters of silence, and custodes). So both boxes and their later separate unit boxes were plastic kits sold by GW, primarily targeted for HH, but also got rules in 8th edition 40k along with the BaC contemptor, though tartaros and cataphractii were merged in 9th to a single 'relic terminator' datasheet.

 

Obviously it got rather a reboot with heresy 2.0 and the new mark vi box, and the whole Heresy line and rules moved over to GW proper, including all the new plastic tanks, while forgeworld just kept the resin releases that haven't moved to GW plastic yet. For 40k, they either kept the existing rules for the older resin versions, such as the imperial armour compendium in 9th, or had separate datasheets like the kratos. Obviously, HH 2.0 has its own rules for them. So they were all GW plastics with official 40k rules, but where they specifically were - codex, compendium or separate - depended on where the original source of the unit was. Only the basic Betrayal at Calth contemptor and the relic terminators were in the marine codexes I believe, and they remain in the space marine index, while e.g. the 'fully loaded' GW plastic contemptor and leviathan, as forgeworld resin replacements, have gone to Heresy Legends.

 

Whether the BaC contemptor and relic terminators will survive to make it into the new marine codex is an open question.

Edited June 29, 2023 by Arkhanist

[SgtSharp]

8 hours ago, Helycon said:

FW stuff has never been in a codex. Wouldn't be different this time, so they can still do it.

5th Ed. Guard codex had the Grithon, madusa, collosus, Manticor and Hydra artillary pieces in it, all of them were forge world exclusive at the time.

[irlLordy]

The BoC contemptor being included in the index was a bit of a puzzler all right. Apparently, contemptors aren't all that rare on the battlefields of the 42nd millenium after all ... but only if they have this very restricted loadout. Thanks GW.

[Stitch5000]

B@C and BoP were not actually "forgeworld plastics". They were produced by Games Workshop, not Forgeworld. 

[Petitioner's City]

4 hours ago, Stitch5000 said:

B@C and BoP were not actually "forgeworld plastics". They were produced by Games Workshop, not Forgeworld. 

 

Although the models arguably were designed by FW sculptors so I do get Noserenda's point. 

 

11 hours ago, SgtSharp said:

5th Ed. Guard codex had the Grithon, madusa, collosus, Manticor and Hydra artillary pieces in it, all of them were forge world exclusive at the time.

 

Some very good recollection here :)

 

Although the Griffon was also a FW model, it was for most players an older metal addition to the plastic chimera and sold by the main store. 

 

But you are mostly right, at the time time, the Medusa, the Colossus, the Hydra tank and the Manticore tanks were then only-resin additions to the plastic chimera.

 

Perhaps like many codices in those days, presumably had rules in the book because it was planned for a possible eventual release (the Deathstrike in the same book being this, sold with the manticore eventually), but it also shows the relationship the studios had at the time, and fifth edition introduced Kinrade's darling Valkyrie in plastic :) 

 

It's interesting the lead author was Robin Cruddace too :) 

 

Sadly, the codex had no actual photography of forge world models in it, and missed out on the chance to feature other vehicles due to the lack of super-heavy rules then.

Edited June 30, 2023 by Petitioner's City

[TrawlingCleaner]

Points Values for the units that went to Legends are up

[Stitch5000]

1 hour ago, Petitioner's City said:

 

Although the models arguably were designed by FW sculptors so I do get Noserenda's point. 

 

They actually weren't, but I guess that's tangential. 

[Irate Khornate]

I'm going to assume the 270 point Cerberus is a mistype

[Petitioner's City]

11 minutes ago, Stitch5000 said:

They actually weren't, but I guess that's tangential. 

 

I be shocked if the infantry weren't, as they were such faithful copies of the existing ranges (with some detail loss). 

[happyslugger]

Finally and they aren't as bad as I thought they were going to be lol

[quasistellar]

51 minutes ago, happyslugger said:

Finally and they aren't as bad as I thought they were going to be lol

 

Some of those are actually pretty spicy.

 

I just noticed that the Achilles datasheet has assault ramp rule -- that can't be right, can it?  Doesn't the quad launcher replace that?  I'm assuming it's a copy paste error of rules from the regular Land Raider datasheet?

Edited June 30, 2023 by quasistellar

[Noserenda]

Also worth mentioning that they arent sending these models to Legends purgatory because they are forgeworld, but because they are "Horus Heresy", im well aware of boxed games existence :) 

Id forgotten the old guard stuff though! 

[RedFox]

Kratos tank, Deredeo and Leviathan dreadnought are cheaper than I thought they would be

[Interrogator Stobz]

 

There is now zero official mention of cannot be used in Tournaments.

 

These are from Levi Tournament Guide:

 

Combine with this and TOs should let them in.

They won't,  but there is nothing stopping them now.

[Kallas]

2 minutes ago, Interrogator Stobz said:

There is now zero official mention of cannot be used in Tournaments.

Makes you wonder why they even bothered splitting them out into different documents. Almost like it's a huge convoluted mess for no good reason. 

[Interrogator Stobz]

I'm gonna put it out there they amended V1.0 before they dropped this today.

 

Now to wait to see what happens with the Quarterly Points Updates.

Edited June 30, 2023 by Interrogator Stobz

[Marshal Mittens]

Relic contemptor seems pretty reasonably priced. 

[Noserenda]

2 hours ago, Kallas said:

Makes you wonder why they even bothered splitting them out into different documents. Almost like it's a huge convoluted mess for no good reason. 

I suspect its some whole mess of internal politics and such, like the money men demand that every model have rules so they sell more but the 40k team is desperate to trim down the marine bloat (And for some reason punish chaos and mech :P ) and took this option to make balance easier, but then someone else insisted "Legends" is only for OOP kits so they needed "Horus Heresy Legends" for models you can still buy...

I mean, the whole affair feels too chaotic to be working to an overall plan

Edited June 30, 2023 by Noserenda

[crimsondave]

1 hour ago, quasistellar said:

 

Some of those are actually pretty spicy.

 

I just noticed that the Achilles datasheet has assault ramp rule -- that can't be right, can it?  Doesn't the quad launcher replace that?  I'm assuming it's a copy paste error of rules from the regular Land Raider datasheet?

They probably got it crossed to with the Spartan that for some reason doesn’t have assault ramp but some other rule I forget that better matches the Achiles.

[gaurdian31]

Now to wait for rules and points for the Legends units from the last editions. Need those rules for Jump Lord, Jump Sorcerer, Legion of the Damned and a slew of others.

[Minsc]

Leviathan Dreads at 210 pts feels about right, and highlights how overpriced the Redemptor is.

They're basically the same, but the Leviathan has a 5++ and is 15 pts cheaper while the Redemptor has (imo) slightly better shooting. 

Sicarans feel about right, basically slightly better and slightly more expensive Leman Russes. 

Kratos at 245 pts is cheaper than I expected it to be, but then it's not that heavily armed nor armoured. AP- Volkite weaponry isn't as potent in 10th where everyone and their mom is packing devastating wounds. Still, is probably a bit underpriced. 

Edit: Scratch that, I compared the Kratos to a Dorn and the Kratos could easily be bumped up to 270-280 pts and I'd still field it.
4 S12 Melta-shots and 4 Lascannons -or- 21 Volkite-shots (maingun now bumped up to D3) with both loadouts also having an Autocannon and a Multimelta is some serious firepower, especially for 245 pts.

OoM in combination with all those Volkite-shots is terrifying.
- Cardanelle: 9 shots, 8 hits, average 7,32 mortalwounds + some AP- D3 wounds.

- Calivers + Culverins: 12 shots, 10,67 hits, 6,51 mortalwounds

Against T10+ it averages almost 14 mortalwounds...

 

 

Edited July 1, 2023 by Minsc

[Marshal Mittens]

I think the Redemptor is pointed off every marine player having 3, and GW wanting people to buy the two new ones.

[Karhedron]

18 hours ago, Minsc said:

Leviathan Dreads at 210 pts feels about right, and highlights how overpriced the Redemptor is.

They're basically the same, but the Leviathan has a 5++ and is 15 pts cheaper while the Redemptor has (imo) slightly better shooting. 

 

The 5++ is less important with the general drop in AP across the board. Both Leviathan and Redemptor will save on a 5+ vs Lascannons etc. However the Redemptor retains the -1 Damage rule which is still pretty tasty.

 

[Karhedron]

On 6/30/2023 at 5:27 PM, crimsondave said:

They probably got it crossed to with the Spartan that for some reason doesn’t have assault ramp but some other rule I forget that better matches the Achiles.

 

I wonder if they felt having nearly 30 models all charging out of a Spartan after its full move was just a tad too powerful. The Spartan is now an excellent fire support unit. Disembark 10 Hellblasters and 10 Sternguard plus supporting characters. Aim the Heavy bolter at something you want your infantry shooting at and all those models now get rerolls to wound. Pretty spicy, especially in large games where you don't want/need your whole army firing at your OOM target.

[Rain]

1 hour ago, Karhedron said:

 

I wonder if they felt having nearly 30 models all charging out of a Spartan after its full move was just a tad too powerful. The Spartan is now an excellent fire support unit. Disembark 10 Hellblasters and 10 Sternguard plus supporting characters. Aim the Heavy bolter at something you want your infantry shooting at and all those models now get rerolls to wound. Pretty spicy, especially in large games where you don't want/need your whole army firing at your OOM target.

It’s almost certainly an error as they gave the assault ramp rule to another LR variant with a big gun on the front and no front ramp on the model, as others in this thread have stated. Someone swapped the special rules while carefully and contentiously putting these rules together.