Legends of the Horus Heresy

[BrainFireBob]

3 hours ago, Sword Brother Adelard said:

Thing is, I accept that just turning up to a pick up game night with a slightly controversial model of any type is likely to cause issues. That could be anything like a dodgy proxy, a mad conversion or even something like a Super Heavy unit that isn't Legends, like an Astreus, or even a Knight in a casual game.

 

But those problems have existed long before Legends, and the solution is just basic communication at the outset, to ensure everyone has the same expectations.

 

Why not try taking two lists, one without a Legends unit, one with, and asking if anyone would mind you using your legend unit before matchups are made?

Why not try and arrange a match up beforehand using the plethora of social media options available and say, "Hi all, I'd like to bring my Vindicator Laser Destroyer tonight, would anyone mind me doing that?'

Why not try and get the store to arrange a specific Legends pick up night?

 

Failing that, why not try and arrange a game at one pick up night when you're not playing with a controversial unit for another night in the future with someone there?

 

And if all that fails, then you can't say you didn't try, and maybe then it's time to reconsider where you're playing?

You presume that all of this is not the current case, here. Not discussing approaches, noting the gestalt result.

[Interrogator Stobz]

3 hours ago, Scribe said:

 

I certainly would qualify as an old timer I would think at this point. :D

This Old Timer's group of tournament peeps never fell into the FW bad, frowned upon category.

Our tournaments were a great way to see, play and oppose different units; as long as they have current and official rules.

 

OOP Legends were always excluded as expected; now due to the disgusting behaviour by GeeDub that list has grown massively. 

 

Also, to the frater here criticising those most affected: maybe blaming the victims of GeeDubs decision is as inflammatory as you think. Maybe empathy is needed instead of pushjng unworkable 'solutions' and victim shaming.

 

Friends don't let GeeDub stop Friends from playing with their toys.

Nor do they blame the toy owners.

 

Edited June 22, 2023 by Interrogator Stobz

[Dark Legionnare]

2 hours ago, Interrogator Stobz said:

This Old Timer's group of tournament peeps never fell into the FW bad, frowned upon category.

Our tournaments were a great way to see, play and oppose different units; as long as they have current and official rules.

 

OOP Legends were always excluded as expected; now due to the disgusting behaviour by GeeDub that list has grown massively. 

 

Also, to the frater here criticising those most affected: maybe blaming the victims of GeeDubs decision is as inflammatory as you think. Maybe empathy is needed instead of pushjng unworkable 'solutions' and victim shaming.

 

Friends don't let GeeDub stop Friends from playing with their toys.

Nor do they blame the toy owners.

 

Even farther, old-timer friends go out of their way to make sure friends can enjoy their toys.

 

For instance, I helped get "Ignoring the relic of past glory" CP tax into our group and local shops. I logically laid out how It was silly that in 9th they made contemptors , leviathans, etc... balanced in stats and points (aside from fringe stuff like volkite spam) so it was unfair to some of our friends with majority 30K tanks & models that they were starting games with 1/3rd the CP for no good reason.

 

Seeing these testimonies in here of folks forced to play with people who don't budge in their bull-headedness is disheartening to me. Number one goal of any Warhammer day is to talk smack, roll dice, and hang out with good company. I wish the same for all the lads and ladies on here!

 

The mess is a creation of GW's "malicious laziness" sadly. The only true solution is to just have GW put in that couple extra minutes per PDF to not have legends stuff even be a thing. It fixes it for the fluff folks, fun folks (not that those first two had a problem to begin with probably), and tournament-minded alike.

 

I can understand them not supporting the cardboard kan from the old 2nd ed starter set, or the mech-boars, etc... from even older.

 

But to me, it's always felt like they should lift the fingers to support stuff they've still sold within the last five years at a minimum. (Decade even, really) At best, everything 4th edition onwards. 4th being where what we have today is still sort of standardized from, with a couple exceptions. Hell, the Krieg line has been around since 4th, is still sold. I'm looking at all the poor Elysian drop troop folks in particular as an example. RIP those glorious buggies. How hard is it to write one datasheet for a "guard-razorback but on wheels?" Or "guardsman squad with assault 2 lasguns w/shorter range, that can deep strike"

 

Why they won't take the five minutes (hyperbole, I know) to keep up-to-date balance/adjustments on decade-or-less kits, let alone the ones they just released in plastic within the last year (levi, contempt, etc...) is a lazy, crappy, playerbase-dividing artifice of their own creation.

Edited June 22, 2023 by Dark Legionnare

[Aarik]

One other worry I have is whether GW's "no-updates" policy for these legends units means that they won't even go back and fix pretty obvious errors from the PDF.  IIRC, the Contemptor datasheet and the supplemental armory datasheet are both missing the stats for the plasma cannon the Contemptor comes equipped with.  I just skimmed through it all so it's possible there are others like that too.

 

And on a larger note, I wonder how much of the (pretty justified, in my opinion) gnashing of teeth about the indexes and the points could have been avoided if GW had just said, "Hey, we're releasing these ahead of the official edition launch.  We know that these aren't perfect and that the community will spot issues that we missed.  Rest assured that we are taking feedback seriously, and we plan to update them [two weeks/a month/whatever short time] after the official edition launch."  As sloppy and unprofessional as I think some of the errors have been, my larger worry is really that they will persist.  Like a lot of other problems GW has, I think a simple acknowledgement of the problem would go a long way to making the community feel better.  That wouldn't solve this particular issue of popular, new, plastic units being Legended, but I think it would generally help a lot.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

4 hours ago, Focslain said:

 

It means nothing really, one person decided not to play a certain type of model has zero bearing on the rest of us unless other follow suit. But that is their decision and their decision alone.

I think the point is that he is just one in the majority and is a well known individual.

 

Pardo and SN will more than likely stop using those models in their bat reps. All of the high end and respected streamers will do the same. I am a narrative player first. For years I've advocated to see legends, played. I've seen a small handful of batreps since they created legends, and the videks that include any legends units for 40k at all, are maybe 1 in 20?

 

Anyways, you say it means nothing, but the tag "influencer" is there for a reason.

[Malakithe]

This has been an entertaining read while im at work .

 

For me I lean towards the camp of 'if its not officially supported then  '. Using the models themselves as proxies is totally fine but using outdated never supported rules is a no go for most people in the area. That general mentality is applied to almost everything in the world though for most of the population. GW simply cant hang on to and support every single thing they have ever made. No company does that. I think Legends even existing is lucky enough. 

[Silas7]

52 minutes ago, Malakithe said:

This has been an entertaining read while im at work .

 

For me I lean towards the camp of 'if its not officially supported then  '. Using the models themselves as proxies is totally fine but using outdated never supported rules is a no go for most people in the area. That general mentality is applied to almost everything in the world though for most of the population. GW simply cant hang on to and support every single thing they have ever made. No company does that. I think Legends even existing is lucky enough. 

 

While I agree, it's only a matter of time before someone tells you that models like the Leviathan, Contemptor and Sicaran are fresh plastic crack

[Interrogator Stobz]

Saying it's the same as most things in the world is admitting that it's not the same as all things in the world.

Some things are more permanent than others. Plastic is 'forever'. 

 

For the cost of a digital page refreshed once per Edition they can hang on to Rules for most things forever.

Also, they have just made a tonne of things Legend that they still make, some are

 less than a year old.

 

Making things Legends is the same work as making them official. It's literally just a different label.

We have their toys forever, they should honour that relationship.

The benefit to them is more sales, especially with the HH stuff.

 

They used to have dead tree rules for things they hadn't even made yet, things they currently had and even for things that were OOP. No one expects that to continue due to all the legal issues.

The Dead tree mentality was a more permanent one despite digital being easier to keep long term. We should as a gaming culture expect rules to live as long as the plastic.

 

Being dismissive of old, and even current units going to Legends will cost them money.

That is their incentive to keep them Official, money.

More than the cost of making a datasheet each Edition and labelling it Official instead of Legend they will sell plastic.

 

Edited June 23, 2023 by Interrogator Stobz

[Balerion84]

I think it's pretty simple, as long a GW are selling models, that were sold for a certain system (40k in this case), they should be supported and updated. If they don't want to support some models, then they should either stop selling them for that system or remove them completely from the system.

Either support them or don't. Don't give me these half arsed measures.

 

Basically, throwing stuff in legends and acting like you can still use them, so what's the fuss, is malicious in my opinion as it means for many/most people that they can't or won't use them. As for example I don't like playing with or against unbalanced and unsupported models. They ten to have much more dumb stuff, more errors and sooner or later they can become useless (so a waste of time for someone like me who plays 1-2 games a month on average) or broken which creates feels bad moments.

 

tldr: legends are stupid and should not exist.

[Rain]

What’s funny is that a lot of the Marine datasheet bloat that is used to partially justify legendsing so many units could have been solved by just splitting Firstborn and Primaris into separate armies, but letting each take up to 25% of total points cost of the other, like CSM factions and Demons. But no. I guess because FB armies would be largely cross compatible with HH, which they are actively avoiding for stupid business reasons.

[Marshal Reinhard]

9 hours ago, Balerion84 said:

I think it's pretty simple, as long a GW are selling models, that were sold for a certain system (40k in this case), they should be supported and updated. If they don't want to support some models, then they should either stop selling them for that system or remove them completely from the system.

Either support them or don't. Don't give me these half arsed measures.

 

Basically, throwing stuff in legends and acting like you can still use them, so what's the fuss, is malicious in my opinion as it means for many/most people that they can't or won't use them. As for example I don't like playing with or against unbalanced and unsupported models. They ten to have much more dumb stuff, more errors and sooner or later they can become useless (so a waste of time for someone like me who plays 1-2 games a month on average) or broken which creates feels bad moments.

 

tldr: legends are stupid and should not exist.

Legends are fine. It makes sense to not include models no longer being sold in the codex, which is what some of the legends were (others being HH ones).

Just remove the stupid matched play restriction and allow them all venues again and problem solved. Keep their rules in check.

[Naryn]

Just saw that my Thousand Sons can't even take a Decimator anymore, when it's been a mainstay of my lists since 5th (?) Edition. 10th has so much going for it but they've really mishandled the Legends aspect.

[Rain]

7 minutes ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

Legends are fine. It makes sense to not include models no longer being sold in the codex, which is what some of the legends were (others being HH ones).

Just remove the stupid matched play restriction and allow them all venues again and problem solved. Keep their rules in check.

What you describe is how IA Compendium and Index units have historically been handled, which is perfectly fine. Had HH era vehicles remained as such, there would have been no gnashing of teeth.

[Balerion84]

10 minutes ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

Legends are fine. It makes sense to not include models no longer being sold in the codex, which is what some of the legends were (others being HH ones).

Just remove the stupid matched play restriction and allow them all venues again and problem solved. Keep their rules in check.

The only units that should be in legends, are those that are not being sold anymore. 

[Marshal Reinhard]

16 minutes ago, Balerion84 said:

The only units that should be in legends, are those that are not being sold anymore. 

Eh, I can see there being a point for them being in a sepperate document labeled legends as they're models primarily made for another game system. That being said, this is solely in the hypothetical world where the matched play restriction for Legends is gone. You're really just mincing words then at that point.

 

Unfortunately, we don't live in that world, so the distinction does matters.

Edited June 23, 2023 by Marshal Reinhard

[Noserenda]

Made for another game system might hold more weight if it was like Age of Sigmar or Titanicus but 30k is just another type of apple, or a late war German army fielding some Panzer 2s.

And thats putting aside the fact that a lot of these kits were marketed for both systems or even for 40k alone...

[Marshal Reinhard]

You know what, I completely forgot Imperial Armour for space marines was still a thing. Currently has Astraeus and Thunderhawk. 

 

Nevermind, they should all be stuck there.

[Interrogator Stobz]

Yep, whilst the Compendium is a thing Legends is illogical from pretty much every point of view.

 

-Sales for Compendium models will be greater than those for Legends.

-There is no more work for GeeDub. 

-Balancing is done by us the Players regardless. 

-Bloat is exactly the same, it's all in the codexes anyway. (How many Captains and Lts are there again?)

 

 

Edited June 23, 2023 by Interrogator Stobz

[Evil Eye]

I'm in two minds about the issue. On the one hand, yes, GW putting a whole bunch of models (including brand new plastic kits) on the naughty step is extremely stupid, anti-consumer and should be treated with the contempt it deserves. I'm not going to defend the move itself; GW thoroughly fethed up.

 

On the other hand, the fact so many people think GW has any clue about balancing and are willing to let them tell them what models they can and can't use when the "main" unit roster is as HILARIOUSLY poorly balanced as it is doesn't reflect very well on those people either.

 

This isn't me doing victim-blaming/"Poor GW having their good will rejected!" nonsense either; rather I'm saying at this point modern GW has demonstrated themselves to be completely incapable of writing good rules, whether that be down to corporate greed or simple incompetence, and that the only- I repeat, ONLY- answer is basically to stop listening to GW altogether. Buy their models if you must (basically if you don't have a printer and the models you want cost too much on the aftermarket) but do not play their broken rulesets. If GW can't produce a quality product you are under no obligations to engage with that product.

 

I've heard the argument floated that if GW went under and 40K as a ruleset went to the community that it would be bad because the community is very myopic and nobody would agree on the best ruleset, but honestly that's not a bad thing. Better that individual groups play their own vision of the game how they want to and everyone gets to be happy than everyone is forced to play one ruleset that tries to appeal to everyone and ends up pleasing no-one. Hell, it might actually be healthier because with no central framework of how the game works, it is literally impossible for a "meta" to form. Powergamers can't netlist their way through games if every group is playing a slightly different version of the game after all. It might mean the end of the "pick-up game" but again that's not the worst thing ever. I'd argue the adoption of pick-up games as the "norm" has not been good for the health of the game, as balancing around such an environment has meant that any more in-depth mechanics that work with the expectation of mutual player understanding and respect have to gt chucked out; due to the nature of pick-ups as opposed to playing in a regular group or with a longstanding friend, the ability to gatekeep bad actors is greatly diminished, which means rules that previously could have abuse prevented by simply telling someone not to be a prat now have to be much more tightly governed (often not very well).

 

What I'm saying is, screw GW, they dun goofed hard, but anyone actually willingly putting up with their garbage at this point gets what they deserve. There are other games, there are older (better) editions, you don't HAVE to play 10th, and in my honest opinion, you shouldn't.

[happyslugger]

I'm correct in thinking that there have still been no points released for these legend units?

 

Different things for different people, but we have about 3 years of 10th ahead I think, and we can use these in games where allowed / agreed. For me and my group, we will just use the 10th edition stats into 11th edition if we want and if we have to agree changes between us we shall.  Appreciate that this doesn't apply to everyone and especially tournament players (which I'm not). But there are people like me out there who just alter GW rules where required anyway..

 

There is already discussion in my little group of seeing how the codex creep plays out and if it's as bad as 9th, we may just play with the index rules..

[OttoVonAwesome]

On 6/22/2023 at 8:05 PM, Malakithe said:

This has been an entertaining read while im at work .

 

For me I lean towards the camp of 'if its not officially supported then  '. Using the models themselves as proxies is totally fine but using outdated never supported rules is a no go for most people in the area. That general mentality is applied to almost everything in the world though for most of the population. GW simply cant hang on to and support every single thing they have ever made. No company does that. I think Legends even existing is lucky enough. 

But they actually can cuase they do. Look at what made it into Imperial Armour and compare it the heresy legends geuss who gets whatever they want? Guard. Legends for the last time is a way for them to manipulate sales nothing more. No more work goes into balancing these units it's not done because it's too much work or any other bull:cuss: they don't even playtest the mainline they put out just look at some of these datasheets and points costs. How many errors are there how many dreads can take two CC and don't even get twin linked for it? it's not just legends.

 

No one wants to use proxies for things they spent money and time and blood and sweat and tears to buy but hey think of the poor rules designers at GW it's just too much work to do what less people did before they were a billion dollar company for 7 editions I dunno maybe hire a few more people they got the money for it. Let's keep drinking the copium and playing devils advocate for a company that constantly phones it in. You know what other tabletop wargame companies support everything they ever made? It's all of them. Every single one because they aren't so big they think they can gaslight their fans into whatever. Imagine someone on minimum wage we've been there almost everyone has how long did it take to save for any kit let alone that pricey fw unit. Imagine the things you could have spent that money on. But hey gw is too overworked with all these units they made can't expect em to support them.

Edited June 24, 2023 by OttoVonAwesome

[Petitioner's City]

I think the thing we have to remember throughout this discussion is that from GW's perspective, legends as pasture only applies to "official tournament play". That's it. 

 

Any frustration at GW about this is because of a situation beyond their control - that is members of the community placing in effect a house rule ("legends shouldnt be used in matched play", which I think most people possibly play, when GW tell us they can and there will be points for them too). 

 

Rather than be upset at GW be upset at the members of the community who propagate this situation - who are not willing to be generous to an opponent, not willing to let them use an official model with official rules and (from this week) official points. Taking "official Warhammer tournament" and blowing that up to mean almost all play. It's  deliberately misconstruing what we've been told again and again because people are letting one mode of play - "official Warhammer tournaments" - dominate what they will accept in a game. 

 

I have my upsets with 10th too, but this is a community-led and community-caused issue. One that is very very frustrating to read across the internet when it involves articles deliberately misreading the text(s) they are critiquing because of an external issue created by those readers, or the people they follow.

 

Like if GW said these are purely for "unpainted, 'open' play", I'd damn well be upset too - but that's not the case. I don't play tournaments, I can use these units in any game I want, and if someone doesn't want to, that's their problem as I'll find someone who will.

 

Now of course boarding patrol has limits, which does make me sad, but few of these minks apply there. 

 

It is complicated, I know, but this is a hermeneutic failure - and a problem caused entirely by a tourney mindset dominating the game. 

[Helycon]

It's also the fact that the datasheets, once out, will no longer be supported. If they skew, they either won't be used in games die to being underpowered (presuming you also play to win at least some games), or be 'banned' due to being overpowered, so people don't want to play them or against them(because the best games are close games). 

 

I feel it's more the stance GW has taken than anything else. It's a low number of datasheets (I think it was about 45 in total on 2000+ datasheets?) when looked at the game as a whole and feels like 10th was rushed out to accommodate something or someone (and I suspect it to be shareholders). If they simply supported them in general, they could also just have them being used in tournaments. It's a shame, because the rules and regular datasheets mostly look great! People having bought these models tend to have them be their pride and joy. They weren't cheap nor easy to build a lot of the times, so having your effort feel invalidated due to lack of support is the gripe I personally struggle with the most. 

[Balerion84]

I see some people arguing that it's the community fault for not wanting to play with unsupported models. 

 

I just don't understand this viewpoint. If a non-legend unit is unbalanced, everyone is screaming that it should be fixed. But somehow, for legends, having unbalanced units is fine, because we should be grateful that GW even blessed us with any rules at all. 

 

Why the double standards? 

 

If the company can't be bothered balancing it's rules, it shouldn't be releasing them. It's not the consumer's responsibility to fix the game. 

 

I have never played a tournament of 40k in my life, never set a foot in a store or club to play a GW game. I play 40k with 3 people once or twice a month. And even we have to discuss if we'll use legends or no, because they can be broken or completely dumb without any hope of GW fixing them. 

 

Saying this is the community's fault is ridiculous. 

[Kastor Krieg]

Look at the hilarity that happened to Custodes Saggitarius boys or the Galatus and Telemon Dreadnoughts. Those are the rules and points they will be stuck with forever and they will not be reviewed, ever again. And it's the community's fault that GW did this to their armies?