Legends of the Horus Heresy

[Arkhanist]

The 'nearly 2/3 of your heavy support choices going to legends* is just fine' people generally boil down to one of 4 arguments.

 

1] MY group of close buddies plays with legends, so it can't be a big deal for anybody. Stop whinging.

2] Those people who say no to legends are stupid because I disagree with them, therefore if you just Argue Harder, they too will see the light. It's your fault for not putting in more effort.

3] OK, your local group of available people are stupid and they suck - AND/OR pick up games against near-strangers suck. Don't play them, go find a different group of friends like mine that plays with legends. I don't care that you live in a rural area and you'd have to move house or drive for hours to do so.

4] it's your fault for buying models when they had rules. They still HAVE rules, so go-to 1]

 

Often with an implied bonus argument

5] GW are awesome. You can just stop playing if you don't like it.

 

See how many you can check off!

 

* Death Guard. 8 out of 14 heavy support datasheets have gone to legends, and 1 has just gone (deimos predator w. alt turrets). Two of the 5 remaining are the 2 variants of Predator.

[Helycon]

In the Custodes section there is an Excel sheet up of supposed weapon stats for the Forge World models. If true, nothing stands out and it feels like those models too are relegated to legends. I truly hope the leak is inaccurate, or GW dropped the ball harder than anticipated. 

[Scribe]

10 minutes ago, Arkhanist said:

The 'nearly 2/3 of your heavy support choices going to legends* is just fine' people generally boil down to one of 4 arguments.

 

1] MY group of close buddies plays with legends, so it can't be a big deal for anybody. Stop whinging.

2] Those people who say no to legends are stupid because I disagree with them, therefore if you just Argue Harder, they too will see the light. It's your fault for not putting in more effort.

3] OK, your local group of available people are stupid and they suck - AND/OR pick up games against near-strangers suck. Don't play them, go find a different group of friends like mine that plays with legends. I don't care that you live in a rural area and you'd have to move house or drive for hours to do so.

4] it's your fault for buying models when they had rules. They still HAVE rules, so go-to 1]

 

Often with an implied bonus argument

5] GW are awesome. You can just stop playing if you don't like it.

 

See how many you can check off!

 

* Death Guard. 8 out of 14 heavy support datasheets have gone to legends, and 1 has just gone (deimos predator w. alt turrets). Two of the 5 remaining are the 2 variants of Predator.

 

Where does "I never would have bought FW with an expectation of including them in pickup games." sit?

 

Note: I say this as someone who spent thousands on FW.

[Irate Khornate]

1 minute ago, Helycon said:

In the Custodes section there is an Excel sheet up of supposed weapon stats for the Forge World models. If true, nothing stands out and it feels like those models too are relegated to legends. I truly hope the leak is inaccurate, or GW dropped the ball harder than anticipated. 

They're legal if I remember correctly. Though I wouldn't be surprised if GW went back on their word to keep FW custodes legal. 

[Blindhamster]

4 minutes ago, Scribe said:

 

Where does "I never would have bought FW with an expectation of including them in pickup games." sit?

 

Note: I say this as someone who spent thousands on FW.

I feel like this is probably an “old timer mentality” for the vast majority of time I have been in the hobby forgeworld stuff was generally frowned upon/not widely accepted. The only times I really used or saw it used regularly was when going to game clubs or with my own friends.

 

but yeah, equally, in more recent years it’s been more commonly accepted and the same is true of legends at least in my area

Edited June 22, 2023 by Blindhamster

[SteveAntilles]

Yeah, Forgeworld went from opponent's permissions only, to totally accepted, to now half and half accepted/legal. I'm just glad I only play Beerhammer with friends anymore.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Thing is, I accept that just turning up to a pick up game night with a slightly controversial model of any type is likely to cause issues. That could be anything like a dodgy proxy, a mad conversion or even something like a Super Heavy unit that isn't Legends, like an Astreus, or even a Knight in a casual game.

 

But those problems have existed long before Legends, and the solution is just basic communication at the outset, to ensure everyone has the same expectations.

 

Why not try taking two lists, one without a Legends unit, one with, and asking if anyone would mind you using your legend unit before matchups are made?

Why not try and arrange a match up beforehand using the plethora of social media options available and say, "Hi all, I'd like to bring my Vindicator Laser Destroyer tonight, would anyone mind me doing that?'

Why not try and get the store to arrange a specific Legends pick up night?

 

Failing that, why not try and arrange a game at one pick up night when you're not playing with a controversial unit for another night in the future with someone there?

 

And if all that fails, then you can't say you didn't try, and maybe then it's time to reconsider where you're playing?

[Scribe]

2 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

I feel like this is probably an “old timer mentality”

 

I certainly would qualify as an old timer I would think at this point. :D

[Helycon]

17 minutes ago, Irate Khornate said:

They're legal if I remember correctly. Though I wouldn't be surprised if GW went back on their word to keep FW custodes legal. 

You would be correct! Perhaps I didn't state it eloquently enough: 

The rules as they are presented in that document feel like they WANT them to be relegated to Legends as well. they are almost all carbon copies of regular weapons with a fancy name. The units look overprices most of the time, and they're missing key rules, such as the 'once per game' and their second ability. That's why I hope the rules are simply incorrect as leaks go, because they really don't look good, which makes me sad  . I truly enjoy the core rules of 10th Edition and the Index principles are great with most units in their respective Indices having their place. Points and Forge World/Legends is currently what irks me. 

[DemonGSides]

50 minutes ago, BrainFireBob said:

You are being deliberately inflammatory, but addressing the point: When you are the one pushing against someone's boundaries and not letting it go (ie, not wanting to play "non sanctioned" units), you are always the :cuss:. 

 

If they show up to the store to play, they've already accepted what's tournament legal, that's assumed as a default or they would not be there.

 

But only the minimum has been accepted. I don't smoke weed, but I accept that I'm getting whiffs if I go to a concert. Going to the concert says nothing about my willingness to take a hit or a drag.

 

As a father midweigh through his career, squeezing in game time must be planned and scheduled. I don't have time for waste opportunities. 

 

"anyone who disagrees with me is inflammatory" is right up there with "Anyone who disagrees with my position lacks empathy" as far as boring responses to what people are writing.

 

Also; this tenth edition ruleset is the only ruleset, and no one wants to argue that. But everyone's willing to argue that Legends units shouldn't be allowed because the rules don't allow them. But the rules do.

 

Pretty obvious to me, but apparently half the posters here belong to hyper vigilant clubs that can come up with tourney rules before the edition has even technically launched. 

[Silas7]

28 minutes ago, Scribe said:

 

Where does "I never would have bought FW with an expectation of including them in pickup games." sit?

 

Note: I say this as someone who spent thousands on FW.

 

Come brother! The 3D printers are this way!

[Dark Legionnare]

4 minutes ago, Silas7 said:

 

Come brother! The 3D printers are this way!

One of us, one of us, one of us!

[Helycon]

9 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

 

"anyone who disagrees with me is inflammatory" is right up there with "Anyone who disagrees with my position lacks empathy" as far as boring responses to what people are writing.

 

Also; this tenth edition ruleset is the only ruleset, and no one wants to argue that. But everyone's willing to argue that Legends units shouldn't be allowed because the rules don't allow them. But the rules do.

 

Pretty obvious to me, but apparently half the posters here belong to hyper vigilant clubs that can come up with tourney rules before the edition has even technically launched. 

The issue isn't necessarily with the fact if they're allowed in a non-tournament setting or not, the issue is with the fact they no longer support them in the ruleset if they skew one way or the other. Then people will stop playing with them, or against them. People enjoy playing with their models, both the people in tournaments and in casual gaming groups. This is what feels taken away for most I think, especially because of the total amount of datasheets in the game, where these are only a really teeny tiny drop in the ocean. 

[Blindhamster]

32 minutes ago, Scribe said:

 

I certainly would qualify as an old timer I would think at this point. :D

same... same :D

[phandaal]

16 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

 

"anyone who disagrees with me is inflammatory" is right up there with "Anyone who disagrees with my position lacks empathy" as far as boring responses to what people are writing.

 

Also; this tenth edition ruleset is the only ruleset, and no one wants to argue that. But everyone's willing to argue that Legends units shouldn't be allowed because the rules don't allow them. But the rules do.

 

Pretty obvious to me, but apparently half the posters here belong to hyper vigilant clubs that can come up with tourney rules before the edition has even technically launched. 

 

Ok, and none of this is a new conversation. You already got one thread locked by refusing to just acknowledge people's experiences and move on. Going for round 2?

[Captain Idaho]

1 hour ago, Sword Brother Adelard said:

Thing is, I accept that just turning up to a pick up game night with a slightly controversial model of any type is likely to cause issues. That could be anything like a dodgy proxy, a mad conversion or even something like a Super Heavy unit that isn't Legends, like an Astreus, or even a Knight in a casual game.

 

But those problems have existed long before Legends, and the solution is just basic communication at the outset, to ensure everyone has the same expectations.

 

Why not try taking two lists, one without a Legends unit, one with, and asking if anyone would mind you using your legend unit before matchups are made?

Why not try and arrange a match up beforehand using the plethora of social media options available and say, "Hi all, I'd like to bring my Vindicator Laser Destroyer tonight, would anyone mind me doing that?'

Why not try and get the store to arrange a specific Legends pick up night?

 

Failing that, why not try and arrange a game at one pick up night when you're not playing with a controversial unit for another night in the future with someone there?

 

And if all that fails, then you can't say you didn't try, and maybe then it's time to reconsider where you're playing?

 

I'm liking this as a positive spin on what can be at least attempted.

[spessmarine]

Given Legends has the "we've given up and won't revisit this" thing going on, can you be surprised people aren't hot on playing with it? 

[Dont-Be-Haten]

I just want to point out that Darren Lantham posted a farewell post on his Instagram for his Castraferrum Dreadnoughts painted in Crimson Fist colors.

 

Sure he -can- still play them. But sending off a farewell post to them tells me something completely different. By the way it has Legacy rules, and he is a tremendous painter. But if a lead model designer is telling you he'll never play that model again, what does that bode for those of us who are narrative players? Just a little food for thought.

[Focslain]

34 minutes ago, Dont-Be-Haten said:

I just want to point out that Darren Lantham posted a farewell post on his Instagram for his Castraferrum Dreadnoughts painted in Crimson Fist colors.

 

Sure he -can- still play them. But sending off a farewell post to them tells me something completely different. By the way it has Legacy rules, and he is a tremendous painter. But if a lead model designer is telling you he'll never play that model again, what does that bode for those of us who are narrative players? Just a little food for thought.

 

It means nothing really, one person decided not to play a certain type of model has zero bearing on the rest of us unless other follow suit. But that is their decision and their decision alone.

Edited June 22, 2023 by Focslain

[DemonGSides]

1 hour ago, phandaal said:

 

Ok, and none of this is a new conversation. You already got one thread locked by refusing to just acknowledge people's experiences and move on. Going for round 2?

 

Sorry, forgot we were on a discussion forum, you're right, my bad for attempting to discuss something.

 

1 hour ago, Helycon said:

The issue isn't necessarily with the fact if they're allowed in a non-tournament setting or not, the issue is with the fact they no longer support them in the ruleset if they skew one way or the other. Then people will stop playing with them, or against them. People enjoy playing with their models, both the people in tournaments and in casual gaming groups. This is what feels taken away for most I think, especially because of the total amount of datasheets in the game, where these are only a really teeny tiny drop in the ocean. 

 

I think you mistake what side of the argument I'm on here.  I want people to use their Legends models.  I want them to start speaking up for their own best interests.  Instead I'm being told that vast swathes of play groups have already decided that Legends are dead for an edition that's still two days away from officially releasing.

[Helycon]

1 minute ago, DemonGSides said:

 

Sorry, forgot we were on a discussion forum, you're right, my bad for attempting to discuss something.

 

 

I think you mistake what side of the argument I'm on here.  I want people to use their Legends models.  I want them to start speaking up for their own best interests.  Instead I'm being told that vast swathes of play groups have already decided that Legends are dead for an edition that's still two days away from officially releasing.

The argument I'm making is they shouldn't be legends at all, so groups don't even need to discuss the issue. 

[DemonGSides]

3 minutes ago, Helycon said:

The argument I'm making is they shouldn't be legends at all, so groups don't even need to discuss the issue. 

 

Sure, but that's under the idea that there's no competitive play-style (A world I would love to join you in).  But unfortunately, as spotted by all of our grumblers here, there's quite a bit of competitive brain-rot throughout the hobby.  And that brain rot doesn't affect JUST tournament players, but all the people they force to play their way.

The game lays out how it's supposed to be played.  Letting tyrants run the ship is absolutely an option.  I just think there's better options out there.  I'm being told by boots on the ground that there isn't, but that's not my experience.

[gaurdian31]

1 minute ago, DemonGSides said:

 

 I just think there's better options out there.  I'm being told by boots on the ground that there isn't, but that's not my experience.

Emphasis mine. It's not your experience, but it is for many others.

[phandaal]

18 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

Sorry, forgot we were on a discussion forum, you're right, my bad for attempting to discuss something.

 

Since this "discussion" is playing out exactly the same as the last threads that got closed, yeah. It is your bad for doing it again.

[BrainFireBob]

2 hours ago, DemonGSides said:

 

"anyone who disagrees with me is inflammatory" is right up there with "Anyone who disagrees with my position lacks empathy" as far as boring responses to what people are writing.

 

Also; this tenth edition ruleset is the only ruleset, and no one wants to argue that. But everyone's willing to argue that Legends units shouldn't be allowed because the rules don't allow them. But the rules do.

 

Pretty obvious to me, but apparently half the posters here belong to hyper vigilant clubs that can come up with tourney rules before the edition has even technically launched. 

I'm not calling out the inflammatory because we disagree, you are being deliberately insulting in tone by engaging in strawman with implied character commentaries. It is reminiscent of rage baiting.

 

Try to respond to the points, please, instead of insulting other frater by how you write things.