Who's interested in creating Xenos for Legions Imperialis?

[Captain Idaho]

This topic is just a way of generating interest and getting an idea of what sort of numbers we have for creating a Xenos ruleset for Legions Imperialis, using said ruleset as a guide/context for anything we create.

 

In my mind, this topic is a place we can discuss how to implement such things, whether we assign groups of people to each Xenos faction with a project head, then come together to finalise things as a community. Or what have you.

 

So... who's interested?

[apologist]

Count me in – I’ve been involved in developing Eldar and Ork rules for AT and various other stuff over the years. 

[Captain Idaho]

I was hoping you would get involved because this is something I doubt I can lead from a technical point of view (I'm happy to help with the board logistics and input) simply because I work and I'm not sure I can hold a candle to the work you've done.

 

Not that there's loads of pressure on anyone to "take control" or anything. Hells, it can just be a bit of fun!

 

Let's just see where it goes. I'm waffling a little now. 

 

Is anyone a member of Net Epic? Or aware how big they might be? Or widespread?

[tinpact]

I'd have to better familiarize myself with Epic, but I support any attempt at homebrewed rules! 

[apologist]

Yeah, I hasten to add I'm not professing to be an expert! The Epic community is large and self-supporting; and I have no doubt that the three main fan-supported factions – NetEpic, Epic-Fr, and NetEA – will produce their own work in time; I can't hold a candle to their efforts :)

 

That said, I'm interested in making sure my friends can join in; so my primary focus is on Orks, Eldar, Tau and Tyranids, as those are the armies they play. I think the best approach is to start with Orks and Eldar as they'll have the broadest interest from the rest of the board, and developing the two in concert against the existing Marines and Guard will ensure things don't get too egregious.

 

What I mean by that is that we can probably agree on general design principles: Eldar, for example, should be fast, fragile and hit hard; while orks should be comparatively resilient, and more firefight and assault-focussed. However, I think we ought to be careful that those concepts become 'flanderized' – Eldar and Orks deserve to be interesting factions in themselves, so they shouldn't be forced into being that. An Eldar player might decide he wants a close-assault theme, with lots of Striking Scorpions and Banshees, and comparatively few grav-tanks or fast stuff; while an ork player might decide she wants to concentrate on a fast-but-fragile Kult of Speed.

 

I think it's handy that we're getting stats for Marines and Guard (Solar Auxilia), as that shows us the best all-round infantry against a mid-to-low tier infantry. 

 

I think it'd be fair to think of a formation of Eldar Guardians or Ork shoota boyz, for example, as one-to-one as capable as a formation Solar Auxilia; the former faster, but less numerous; the latter tougher and better in combat.

 

Similarly, Eldar Aspect Warriors should match or outclass in certain ways their Space Marine equivalents. Dire Avengers would be to Tactical Legionaries as Guardians are to Solar Auxilia; while Howling Banshees should be as deadly as Assault Marines in combat.

[Black Cohort]

Orks followed by Eldar would make the most sense to start.  One reason why I would recommend Orks first is because I think a discussion on how 30k vs 40k Eldar differ is required before their army is designed.

[Trokair]

Ork can also crib some rules for tanks and planes of the solar or even marine in the form of looted stuff, would give a baseline comparison to start from.

[Captain Idaho]

Got to be orks first eh.

 

I think eldar then Tyranids personally, simply because of numbers of fans and then the fact loads of Tyranid fans potentially out there from the new 40K focus on them in Leviathan. 

[Marshal Rohr]

I have this vision of Heresy/a crusade era Eldar in modernized versions of their Rogue Trader and 2nd Edition look. The chainmail armor and triangular tanks look a little dated now, but rebooting them into something that was closer to what the Eldar looked like at the height of the power would be insanely cool. Proto-Aspect warriors not quite at the design we are used to, with the full bodysuits. Maybe something a little more superhero-esque and ornate to show them finding their look. Same thing for the wraith constructs, they’d be a little different looking than we are used to but still recognizable. 
 

For Orks I’d lean on that second edition aesthetic of padded armor and their own version of power armor to represent them being more advanced than the 40K incarnations. Bring back redesigned lungburstas and the other cool tanks that just up and disappeared. 
 

instead of Necrons Id do a more recognizable Sentient AI enemy. None of they Egypt stuff, pure skynet. For the ‘hive mind’ I’m not sure there is a way to do it since they’d just be knock off Tyranids. Instead of the Anime Tau Eastern Archetype a different more militaristic alien race would be pretty cool and it’s frustrating the only option in 40K is something as uninspiring as the Tau. No mecha, but maybe something more like Mass Effect Turians. 
 

that would be the dream. Finally getting to do the Great Crusade. 

[Trokair]

For Necrons you could always look to the 2nd edition Necron look, they had a different astetic from everything that came out in 3rd onwards, though still a slight egyptian nod on the Lord. 

[apologist]

Cool as these ideas are, I think we should row back a bit and concentrate on making rules for models that are available (either OOP or third party) – after all, we can design the coolest thing in the world, but I think people will be more interested in a set of rules that allows them to use the models they already have than something completely new, however innovative and nicely-done. 

 

+++

 

+ A method to the madness +

Keeping things simple at first will give us a base to build on. Happily, we've got lots to build on, particularly for Orks and Eldar. My suggestion to get started would be to work out how Space Marines and Guard (Solar Auxilia) differ from previous incarnations – that is, how has the army been adapted to work with the new mechanics – and sympathetically adapt the old Xenos in the same way.

 

As a very simple example, let's look at the basic stats of the core Marines, Guard, Orks and Eldar troops from Epic: Armageddon:

 

 

 

 

 

As you can see, all have a speed of 15cm, so if the Space Marines and Imperial Guard both have the same movement value as each other in Legions, I'd suggest that both Ork boyz and Eldar Guardians (and anyone else with Speed 15cm from the same lists) could share the same speed.

 

We see that Marines and Orks share the same good 'Close Combat' value; and that Imperial Guard and Eldar Guardians are similarly poor in this area – so we can use the equivalent stat in Legions to give us appropriate starting points.

 

This initial 'translation' will give us some of the fundamental mechanics, after which we'll be in a good place to start tweaking and filling in any gaps. 

 

+++

 

+ Wait, Solar Auxilia are better than that! +

One immediate point the above proposal throws up is whether the Imperial Guard infantry are the best equivalent for the elite Solar Auxilia. Building on poor foundations is not the greatest idea, so my first question to you all is whether you think the stats below (for Imperial Guard Storm Troopers) are a better equivalent for Solar Auxilia.

 

This shouldn't be coloured too much by in-universe lore. I suggest you try to think in pure mechanics while making that decision. By using the Storm Trooper stats as the basis for all our theory, we'll fundamentally close the gap between the four factions, leaving less design space. By using the Imperial Guard infantry stats, we'll spread things out – but risk making Marines too elite in comparison.

 

[Black Cohort]

I think the one area that Solar Auxillia may be better at this scale than 40k IG is armour for standard troops.

 

Also I think it is worth considering that at least some elite eldar infantry should have a higher move than standard humans.

[tinpact]

Right; looking at the Swordwind rules, 15cm is the standard movement for a lot of units, but Eldar have a few rules that make them more mobile, which is probably about right - an extra cm or two is generally less interesting than having alternate ways of moving.

 

As far as Auxilia, unless they also write rules for cults/militia, and depending on how their profile actually turns out, we can probably consider them to be the baseline for chaff-y infantry within LI (techno-thralls being the other option, on the low end of the spectrum). If they're a single step below Marines, then there's room below that; if multiple, then there's space between to fit different profiles into.

 

The other thing is that there's a fair bit of variance of stats within factions - Eldar Guardians get a guardsman statline (with better shooting), and Aspect Warriors get a Stormtrooper statline with variations based on their specialization - Striking Scorpions have nearly the same profile as Tactical Marines.

 

[Black Cohort]

I think we really need to see the stats for how both Legions and Solar Auxillia work as a whole before we start getting into the details of any alien species.

 

But something else I was thinking about, is there any value down the line in doing stats for some purely 30k era threats?

[Captain Idaho]

After Orks, Tyranids and Eldar, then maybe squats/Leagues of Votann, sure definitely. 

[SalamandersBro]

This game would have been fantastic if it was set during great crusade. Think of the xeno races and other human empires they could have created.

[Brother Captain Arkley]

https://cults3d.com/en/design-collections/Lord_Chronos/tiny-space-elves

 

Eldar :)

[Captain Idaho]

People work soooo quickly. 

[Pacific81]

This is a great idea and I think definitely a logical next step if (as it sounds) the game is going to be entirely restricted as a human-on-(post)human conflict.

 

It's difficult to get a full sense of how the rules will be in the new game. We have been told it is primarily based off 2nd edition/Space Marine, and yet there looks to be a level of granularity more reminiscent of 1st edition or Armageddon. If this is the case, and the game is a hybrid and it's own thing, porting over existing NetEpic or Net Armageddon rules suddenly becomes a lot more difficult, as you have to fill in a lot of blanks, and there will be the need for this sort of project.

 

For something like Orks, do you go with the extremely fun/random nature of the 2nd edition rules, with clans following instinctual behaviour and weapons misfiring, or the much drier Armageddon-based rules? So there are decisions to make around what style of rules you want to design, beyond just stats and movement ranges, in terms of how you want a faction to play on the tabletop.

[apologist]

 

As a very early starting point, I wanted to scratch down some ideas for a 'basic ork' and 'basic eldar' statline. These are intended as utterly generic – the 'basic biology'.

 

Ork

Scale: Infantry (1)

Detachment size: 6

Name: Ork boyz

Movement: 5"

Sv: –

CAF: +1

Morale: 4+

W: 1

 

Eldar Guardian

Scale: Infantry (1)

Detachment size: 4

Name: Eldar Guardian

Movement: 6"

Sv: –

CAF: 0

Morale: 4+

W: 1

 

The three are all very similar. I've taken the 6+ save to reflect a 4+ carapace armour, so neither our basic ork or eldar guardian gets a save at this point.

 

You get more orks per detachment than eldar or humans: this has the soft effect of outnumbering bonuses, which needs to be taken in context when deciding on CAF.

 

Eldar are a fraction faster, which will likewise scale up with the multiple moves that previews have shown us.

 

 

[Black Cohort]

are we not representing increased ork toughness?  or is it marginal enough to not show up at this scale.  I assume orks would have some kind of morale bonus when they still have most of their models in a unit.

 

Should the eldar have better willpower?

[apologist]

Thought I'd blow the dust off this thread now that Legions Imperialis is confirmed to be on its way, and work back through things.

 

On a dreadfully selfish note, I'll be focussing purely on Orks and Eldar – mainly to keep things limited enough to deliver, but also because those are the armies my own group is most likely to play. Having said that, I hope that by us discussing the design philosophy and reasoning behind specific decisions, anyone interested in making other armies finds helpful stuff here. :)

 

I've therefore restricted my comments here to the specifics of Eldar and Orks.

 

On 7/14/2023 at 1:16 AM, tinpact said:

Right; looking at the Swordwind rules, 15cm is the standard movement for a lot of units, but Eldar have a few rules that make them more mobile, which is probably about right - an extra cm or two is generally less interesting than having alternate ways of moving.

 

As far as Auxilia, unless they also write rules for cults/militia, and depending on how their profile actually turns out, we can probably consider them to be the baseline for chaff-y infantry within LI (techno-thralls being the other option, on the low end of the spectrum). If they're a single step below Marines, then there's room below that; if multiple, then there's space between to fit different profiles into.

 

The other thing is that there's a fair bit of variance of stats within factions - Eldar Guardians get a guardsman statline (with better shooting), and Aspect Warriors get a Stormtrooper statline with variations based on their specialization - Striking Scorpions have nearly the same profile as Tactical Marines.

 

 

Good points. It's worth noting that Epic: Armageddon leant towards using universal rules with special exceptions, including for movement (much like 3rd ed 40k), where other GW rulesets simply made core mechanics and stats more – see the thoughts below on taking Space Marine (2nd ed). as more of an influence.

 

Either way, I think we're all broadly agreeing that Eldar need to be a bit speedier in some way than equivalent Imperial (or ork), even down to infantry level.

 

 

On 9/2/2023 at 8:45 AM, Pacific81 said:

It's difficult to get a full sense of how the rules will be in the new game. We have been told it is primarily based off 2nd edition/Space Marine, and yet there looks to be a level of granularity more reminiscent of 1st edition or Armageddon. If this is the case, and the game is a hybrid and it's own thing, porting over existing NetEpic or Net Armageddon rules suddenly becomes a lot more difficult, as you have to fill in a lot of blanks, and there will be the need for this sort of project.

 

For something like Orks, do you go with the extremely fun/random nature of the 2nd edition rules, with clans following instinctual behaviour and weapons misfiring, or the much drier Armageddon-based rules? So there are decisions to make around what style of rules you want to design, beyond just stats and movement ranges, in terms of how you want a faction to play on the tabletop.

 

Since the previews have revealed that Space Marine (2nd edition) is more of a direct influence, I'd be inclined to lean towards that, despite my love of Epic: Armageddon. Having said that, I'd suggest we look to the preview articles for Warhammer: The Old World for an overall plan, as they're making it clear that TOW is essentially a recognisable but tuned-up and smoothed-down version of the original, rather than a direct copy. That seems a good direction to me.

 

To take orks as a good example, I'd be keen to include the more granular approach to units – Gobsmashas, Lungburstas, Spleenrippas, Braincrushas and the like as opposed to the rather dry abstract Battlewagons and Gunwagons – but perhaps rein things in to find a nice middle ground; in the same way as TOW development.

 

On 9/12/2023 at 7:19 PM, Black Cohort said:

are we not representing increased ork toughness?  or is it marginal enough to not show up at this scale.  I assume orks would have some kind of morale bonus when they still have most of their models in a unit.

 

Should the eldar have better willpower?

 

That's up for debate! Personally, I think that ork toughness is best abstracted out at this scale, and represented through points cost/unit size rather than stat tweaks. 

 

On Eldar morale, I'd suggest that while they're well-disciplined (leaning to better morale than Solar Auxilia), there's also a sense of self-preservation making them a bit more brittle (leaning to poorer morale), so it'd all come out in the wash at this scale of gameplay.

 

In short, morale doesn't strike me as quite as key to the faction identity as other elements (hard-hitting, fragile, speedy), but happy to be convinced otherwise. :)

Edited November 14, 2023 by apologist

[twopounder]

I've long said they need to add xenos to the HH setting and call it Great Crusade or some such. One issue though is that Crusade era Imperial weapons absolutely wreck xenos. Would also be nice to port the rules to 40k.

[Black Cohort]

I think starting with Orks and Eldar makes sense, no point getting spread out across a ton of factions simultaneously.  Once those two are sorted we can always pick something else to focus on.

[Marshal Rohr]

From the initial battle report, white dwarf article, and some of the reviews it looks like you can do a 1 for 1 switcharoo by cherry picking from the Legion and Solar Aux list to make orks. 
 

Legion Command - Warboss and Nobz

Contemptors - Deffdreads

Killa Kanz - Ogryns

Skarboys - Tacticals

Boyz - Solar Aux Lasrifles

Burnas - Solar Aux Flamers

Lungbustaz, Tanks, etc - Solar Aux tanks

Stompas - Knights

Various Sized Gargants - Titans with ballistic and missile weapons

 

The only thing you’d need to house rule is the Formations. 

edit: obviously meganobz as cataphractii

 

Edited November 18, 2023 by Marshal Rohr