new balance data slate update this Thursday

[Kallas]

1 minute ago, Monkeychunks said:

It makes more sense when you remember that it also applies to the sword & shield variant. 

Did you mean less sense? The Sword-and-Board WK is not worth 475, let alone 510. This is another example of why Power Level "Points" are terrible when they aren't pointed for wargear.

 

Honestly, a lot more significant changes than I thought there would be, and a lot less insane point increases than expected but still wonky. A decent attempt, will definitely shake some stuff up, but also plenty of stuff has just been dumpstered (eg, Support Weapons at 125pts is ridiculously expensive, and for the Vibrocannon and Shadow Weaver, they are not even clsoe to viable any more).

[Wormwoods]

Dammit, I was about to finish the first 1000 points for my Crusade army, and now I need to paint another character model to fill the points-cut gap!

 

Good problem to have, I suppose. Glad I never bothered getting any missile marines.

[Lhorke]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/09/07/warhammer-40000-metawatch-changes-abound-in-the-first-balance-dataslate-of-the-edition/
 

Link to where the hardcopies have been uploaded to the Warhammer community page. 

Edited September 7, 2023 by Lhorke

[acrozatarim]

Happy with the CSM changes here, some nice points cuts to make my pile of legionaries feel slightly more worthwhile.

 

Points increases on GSC combined with the big nerf of no more autoreturning battle line feels like it might be a bit too much of a beat down there.

 

Loving the devastating wound change and the stratagem adjustments, which should improve things a lot.

[Indy Techwisp]

Question is, has this done enough to stop Aeldari and their 80+% winrate?

[Orange Knight]

Games workshop owe me a Desolator Sgt. 

 

I built the unit as per instruction. Now that unit is illegal. I don't have a model to adequately represent a 2nd sgt once assembled.

[Wormwoods]

1 minute ago, Orange Knight said:

I built the unit as per instruction. Now that unit is illegal. I don't have a model to adequately represent a 2nd sgt once assembled.

Repaint the helmet? I doubt most opponents will mind.

[Sir Clausel]

Assault terminators have gone up +5 for 5 man and normal terminators have gone down -15 for 5. 

Wasnt normal terminators regarded as the strongest atm?

Edited September 7, 2023 by Sir Clausel

[Captain Idaho]

Eldar ZERO CHANGES  points increases welcome but we'll see if that's enough. People are being wiped out in a couple turns so it might not touch the sides.

 

Devastating Wounds is ok as a change 

 

Overall, some nice touches but nothing screaming the game is balanced. 

[Petitioner's City]

Here is the video 

 

 

 

[acrozatarim]

The Devastating Wounds change basically is a Craftworld/Ynnari change, let's face it. Yes, Dev Wounds elsewhere were probably too good in general, but it was in Aeldari that it was the big concern.

 

Also note the Phantasm change, which aiui is a pretty big deal.

[Mogger351]

8 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

Eldar ZERO CHANGES  points increases welcome but we'll see if that's enough. People are being wiped out in a couple turns so it might not touch the sides.

 

Devastating Wounds is ok as a change 

 

Overall, some nice touches but nothing screaming the game is balanced. 

Got to disagree there, they've smoothed over a lot of the problem interactions, helped those struggling the most albeit delicately, the top dogs have had the most egregious tools reigned in seemingly. I think the points increase for eldar will determine where they land overall, but I suspect we'll see necrons, tau, chaos marines and daemons creeping up the rankings and hopefully nothing sub 40% and nothing above 60% seems probable.

[TrawlingCleaner]

18 minutes ago, Indy Techwisp said:

Question is, has this done enough to stop Aeldari and their 80+% winrate?

 

We'll see for sure but the NOVA winning list went up over 300 points (most other winning Eldar lists went up 300-400). They can only Phantasm Infantry now (most lists' only useful infantry models are Wraithguard), Wraithknights and Support weapons can't overwatch anymore (on top of massive points increases) and the changes to DevWounds are very very sizeable. Eldar lists currently are leant so heavily on DevWound spam (WK, WG, Support Weapons, Avatars) + Fire Prisms. With the changes to Phantasm, you can't have 2 hidden Prisms shooting through 1 visible Prism which then Phantasms out of LoS.

 

Is it enough? Hard to say but it's most defiitely knocked them hard, probably not as hard as GSC (ouch) but the time of the Necron is likely to be uppon us with IK, TS and Custodes also taking hits. I still would've liked Fate Dice taking another hit to not trigger any Crit hits or wounds too

Edited September 7, 2023 by TrawlingCleaner

[Jolemai]

Space Marines points gives a good idea of what's going to be cut from the next Codex imo - i.e. they haven't bothered adjusting things which will be removed (as an example, Vanguard Veterans with jump packs are now cheaper than Vanguard Veterans)

[Kallas]

6 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

Eldar ZERO CHANGES  points increases welcome but we'll see if that's enough. People are being wiped out in a couple turns so it might not touch the sides.

 

Devastating Wounds is ok as a change 

To be fair, Eldar's biggest hitting units did get some significant changes:

1. Devastating Wounds impacts the Wraithknight and Wraithguard a lot, making their best options substantially less take-all-comers, so that is a good change.
2. Titanic units (ie, WK) cannot use Overwatch, so it won't be able to use it and annihilate something on the opponent's turn. Still can be used by WG, but with worse DW, they'll hit less hard into hordes, and so have an actual weakness compounded with their retaliatory shooting being locked down in melee.
3. Ruins got changed significantly with regards to Towering. Now they can see through a ruin they are touching, not just all ruins which is going to actually allow units to hide from them (and vice versa).
4. Phantasm won't affect anything beyond Infantry, which is signficant for things like the WK and Fire Prisms.
5. Support Weapons are pretty awful now - 125pts for one D-Cannon with nerfed DW; which is a good thing overall, but the SWs themselves are pretty bad now, especially the non-D-Cannons which are worth about 50pts...
6. General price increases: current meta lists are going up somewhere around 200ish points, which is not an insignificant amount when the others changes to their lethality are added in.

Do I think it's enough to bring them down? Yes. Do I think it was reasonable and decently well measured? Hit and miss, I think the rules changes are significant and much more than I was expecting, but the points are awkward and still feel wonky - but overall quite pleasantly surprised. Some of the weaker factions are still going to be lacking (eg, AdMech) but all of the wider game rule changes plus top tier faction nerfs together are going to be a big shake up overall.

 

Quite happily surprised, even if it's not "there" yet for me.

[Bouargh]

40 minutes ago, Nagashsnee said:

Skitarii are back baby! While rad bombardment remains the codex is not far. Points down on allot.  

 

The point decrease is brutal - 28 and 20% respectively to the flavours. at least their are more aligned in pricing with other comparable units from other indexes (Guardmens), while keeping a premium related to their Svg. Makes sense.

Yet another AdMech unit very comparable to an existing IG unit remained overpriced: Servitors. Are the few differences (benefit of Doctrina, S8 on servoarm and keeping tools while getting an HW) enough to justify the 20 pts difference? I dunno... 

 

52 minutes ago, Doobles88 said:

Just checked my Votann list. I don't think I have enough models for a 2k army any more.... The last list I played has come down by 300 points or so.

 

The same for my WIP AdMech - seen the sheer cost of the sets and the global point decrease, I wonder if I will be able fielding an army one day... (for any other thing than Patrol)

 

47 minutes ago, Kastor Krieg said:

NOW:

 

It is a lot of red. Really, it is a lot of red. 

And not only for BT, most costs are in red now, whatever faction we are talking about. Would we have a shortage of red ink soon?

[Kallas]

Just now, Bouargh said:

Would we have a shortage of red ink soon?

This is the real reason GW published digital Indexes, the worldwide red ink shortage!

[Captain Idaho]

Eldar are plenty powerful without Devastating Wounds. But to be clear I'm talking about their army rules specifically which have remained unchanged. 

 

Seems GW haven't worked out what's wrong with Death Guard. They've just piled rules on top of them but kept the same fundamental flaws.

 

DG are slow moving. They don't have good anti-armour weapons up close. Their ability is a close ranged aura. It is piling abilities onto them hoping they'll get elevated somehow. Their rules aren't helping them move faster, wound vehicles with melta or tank the obscene firepower out there.

 

Along with the Eldar and other factions it is apparent GW doesn't want to change core army special rules substantially or redo them, despite the Index stage being the ideal period to do so. They're patching and patching existing rules but really should be just slashing and boring broken rules and restarting.

 

My prediction on this is Eldar remain high in percentage, above fair performance, whilst Death Guard barely shift.

 

And if Death Guard do shift slightly, it'll because they're being other bottom tier armies in tournaments. 

Edited September 7, 2023 by Captain Idaho

[Nephaston]

Do we know which will be the first tourney to use these changes?

[Special Officer Doofy]

7 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

Seems GW haven't worked out what's wrong with Death Guard. They've just piled rules on top of them but kept the same fundamental flaws.

 

DG are slow moving. They don't have good anti-armour weapons up close. Their ability is a close ranged aura. It is piling abilities onto them hoping they'll get elevated somehow. Their rules aren't helping them move faster, wound vehicles with melta or tank the obscene firepower out there.

 

I agree. They need to bring DR (5+++) back. If they are going to continue to be the slowest army in game while having below average firepower, then they need to be the most durable. This dataslate is not enough to bring me back to the hobby.

[Orange Knight]

I have officially placed a complaint with GW for invalidating a unit I only just painted up last month, and that was only released in Feb of this year.

 

It was assembled as per instructions, and now I have no way of converting one of the models to make the unit into 2 legal squads whilst maintaining WYSIWYG.

[Tichinde]

5 minutes ago, Nephaston said:

Do we know which will be the first tourney to use these changes?

Brewhammer GT in Scotland this weekend decided to use any rules changes but not points changes as it wasn't fair to have attendees try to change the lists last minute if they were traveling. we'll see how that works out.

[DemonGSides]

6 minutes ago, Nephaston said:

Do we know which will be the first tourney to use these changes?

 

I would assume next weekend, but I'm sure there's a cheeky TO out there who's itching to use these rules right away.

16 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

Eldar are plenty powerful without Devastating Wounds. But to be clear I'm talking about their army rules specifically which have remained unchanged. 

 

Seems GW haven't worked out what's wrong with Death Guard. They've just piled rules on top of them but kept the same fundamental flaws.

 

DG are slow moving. They don't have good anti-armour weapons up close. Their ability is a close ranged aura. It is piling abilities onto them hoping they'll get elevated somehow. Their rules aren't helping them move faster, wound vehicles with melta or tank the obscene firepower out there.

 

Along with the Eldar and other factions it is apparent GW doesn't want to change core army special rules substantially or redo them, despite the Index stage being the ideal period to do so. They're patching and patching existing rules but really should be just slashing and boring broken rules and restarting.

 

My prediction on this is Eldar remain high in percentage, above fair performance, whilst Death Guard barely shift.

 

And if Death Guard do shift slightly, it'll because they're being other bottom tier armies in tournaments. 

 

Not really true; the D-Wounds and their mobility were their huge leg-up over everyone else.  Their army rule got changed already to what feels fair; the only further change would be, imo, to change how many dice you start with based on battle size/army comp, whichever makes more sense.

 

You can't make DG fast moving without losing the DG aesthetic.  They need stronger weapons, for sure, but I don't think adding mobility is what any DG player wants for the theme of their army.  Our daemon engines are where our fast movers come from, we need more potent weaponry not more movement.

 

They literally changed a keyword, which is a core rule.  I agree with not changing multiple core rules willy-nilly, as that'll have massive knock on effects.  A good change.

[Captain Idaho]

9 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

I have officially placed a complaint with GW for invalidating a unit I only just painted up last month, and that was only released in Feb of this year.

 

It was assembled as per instructions, and now I have no way of converting one of the models to make the unit into 2 legal squads whilst maintaining WYSIWYG.

 

Cor, it's almost like having your models invalidated is an undesirable thing to happen, to many Firstborn players or those who bought FW models...

[Orange Knight]

2 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

 

Cor, it's almost like having your models invalidated is an undesirable thing to happen, to many Firstborn players or those who bought FW models...

 

I think a 6 month old kit is a bit of different story.