new balance data slate update this Thursday

[Wolf Guard Dan]

*Steps on soap box*
If Wulfen are 16ppm their design is messed up. They should be 30-35ppm and feel like it.

*Steps off soap box and scurries away*

[Sir Clausel]

So i was thinking... How exactly does the new devastating wounds work. Do they happen first or last? Im thinking mostly here where there are different saves. Like a space marine captain in a 5 man intercessor squad. If they get hit with like 5 thunder hammer wounds and then 5 extra devastating wounds(also from hammers).

Does the devastating wounds happen first so the captain can save(4++) vs the hammers? Or does the normal wounds go first so the squad have a chance to save(5+) the normals first and then the devastating wounds. 

I think the order in which happens will be pretty important 

[DemonGSides]

7 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

 

I think a 6 month old kit is a bit of different story.

 

Isn't it a "Can be" not a "Must be" upgrade?  I'm confused what the issue is?

4 minutes ago, Sir Clausel said:

So i was thinking... How exactly does the new devastating wounds work. Do they happen first or last? Im thinking mostly here where there are different saves. Like a space marine captain in a 5 man intercessor squad. If they get hit with like 5 thunder hammer wounds and then 5 extra devastating wounds(also from hammers).

Does the devastating wounds happen first so the captain can save(4++) vs the hammers? Or does the normal wounds go first so the squad have a chance to save(5+) the normals first and then the devastating wounds. 

I think the order in which happens will be pretty important 

 

As stated in the updated rule, Devastating Wounds apply last, but I think your hypothetical doesn't make sense, since any unit with an attached leader has to use the squads saves before the leader's saves, since attacks and wounds have to be applied to the bodyguard unit first, which any unit with an attached leader becomes, unless I am mistaken myself (Totally possible).

 

Edited September 7, 2023 by DemonGSides

[Doobles57]

4 minutes ago, Sir Clausel said:

So i was thinking... How exactly does the new devastating wounds work. Do they happen first or last? Im thinking mostly here where there are different saves. Like a space marine captain in a 5 man intercessor squad. If they get hit with like 5 thunder hammer wounds and then 5 extra devastating wounds(also from hammers).

Does the devastating wounds happen first so the captain can save(4++) vs the hammers? Or does the normal wounds go first so the squad have a chance to save(5+) the normals first and then the devastating wounds. 

I think the order in which happens will be pretty important 

The rules are written with resolving one attack at a time, so not sure we'll get an official answer on what to do here. Might have to slow roll them when it seems like it could be an issue.

 

EDIT - I was wrong and didn't read the full rule. Dev wounds allocated last

Edited September 7, 2023 by Doobles88

[TrawlingCleaner]

7 minutes ago, Sir Clausel said:

So i was thinking... How exactly does the new devastating wounds work. Do they happen first or last? Im thinking mostly here where there are different saves. Like a space marine captain in a 5 man intercessor squad. If they get hit with like 5 thunder hammer wounds and then 5 extra devastating wounds(also from hammers).

Does the devastating wounds happen first so the captain can save(4++) vs the hammers? Or does the normal wounds go first so the squad have a chance to save(5+) the normals first and then the devastating wounds. 

I think the order in which happens will be pretty important 

 

EDIT: the order has changed slightly to be:

Normal Wounds - DevWounds - Mortal Wounds

It hasn't changed anything as far as I can tell.

The new DevWounds are just normal attacks slightly different but you would choose which DevWounds goes onto which models following all the normal rules eg, you can't allocate damage to characters in a joined unit unless the whole unit is dead or the attack has precision, you always have to allocate to wounded models first etc.

If you have mixed armour saves, you still pick what goes where

 

If that makes sense?

Edited September 7, 2023 by TrawlingCleaner
I was wrong on the no changes to order

[Indy Techwisp]

3 minutes ago, Sir Clausel said:

So i was thinking... How exactly does the new devastating wounds work. Do they happen first or last? Im thinking mostly here where there are different saves. Like a space marine captain in a 5 man intercessor squad. If they get hit with like 5 thunder hammer wounds and then 5 extra devastating wounds(also from hammers).

Does the devastating wounds happen first so the captain can save(4++) vs the hammers? Or does the normal wounds go first so the squad have a chance to save(5+) the normals first and then the devastating wounds. 

I think the order in which happens will be pretty important 

 

DevWounds are just... the wounds from the weapon, not extra wounds.
So any DevWounds dice just go straight through, and the rest is saved as normal
Exactly like Mortals, but they don't spill over anymore

[Orange Knight]

Just now, DemonGSides said:

 

Isn't it a "Can be" not a "Must be" upgrade?  I'm confused what the issue is?

 

I need two Sgts now, as I can only run two squads of 5 instead of one squad of 10.

 

My army is perfectly modelled. I own about 12 Captains as a result of wanting to have the correct wargear, and I don't like using magnets.

 

 

I cant simply paint the helmet of one of the Desolators red as the Sgt has a unique targeter on his back, different weapons, etc. I no longer have the bits either, but even if I did the model isn't easily altered

 

[Dont-Be-Haten]

I think the play for DG against tank heavy metas, is to take the additional -1 armour saves, meaning -1 Armour -1 toughness.

 

MBH's are still wounding T 11~12 on 4s. But things like PBCs have the ability to more efficiently mortar tanks when combined with a Lord Virulence + shroud squad to deepstrike in and zero out a unit with additional negative modifiers.

 

DG competitively have no aesthetics. It's 3 DPs, Mortartion and tanks/DEs.

Edited September 7, 2023 by Dont-Be-Haten
Fixed autocorrects.

[DemonGSides]

Just now, Orange Knight said:

 

I need two Sgts now, as I can only run two squads of 5 instead of one squad of 10.

 

My army is perfectly modelled. I own about 12 Captains as a result of wanting to have the correct wargear, and I don't like using magnets.

 

 

I cant simply paint the helmet of one of the Desolators red as the Sgt has a unique targeter on his back, different weapons, etc. I no longer have the bits either, but even if I did the model isn't easily altered

 

 

Sgt doesn't have different weapons tho, it just CAN have a Vengor Launcher.  So you should be good; add a little extra backpack bling to one of your guys, bam, he's a sgt now.

[Malakithe]

Anyone have a breakdown for Space Marines? I notied the new termies went down a little and the Lancer went up

[Indy Techwisp]

2 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

 

I need two Sgts now, as I can only run two squads of 5 instead of one squad of 10.

 

My army is perfectly modelled. I own about 12 Captains as a result of wanting to have the correct wargear, and I don't like using magnets.

 

 

I cant simply paint the helmet of one of the Desolators red as the Sgt has a unique targeter on his back, different weapons, etc. I no longer have the bits either, but even if I did the model isn't easily altered

 

 

There's normally spare backpack stuff, right?
Grab one from your bitsbox, pop it on the model, repaint the helmet and he's good to go.
He doesn't need the special weapon since as DemonGSides said the Sgt. can just have the normal gun too.

Think of it as modelling an alternate option for the Sgt.

[Orange Knight]

Just now, Indy Techwisp said:

 

There's normally spare backpack stuff, right?
Grab one from your bitsbox, pop it on the model, repaint the helmet and he's good to go.
He doesn't need the special weapon since as DemonGSides said the Sgt. can just have the normal gun too.

Think of it as modelling an alternate option for the Sgt.

 

Haven't got the part. Also the way it attached means it can't actually be replaced easily. I need a whole new backpack.

 

I don't actually want to use the Vengor launcher.

 

And frankly, I shouldn't have to source bits for brand new units bought directly from GW,  built correctly as per official GW instructions.

[Indy Techwisp]

Just now, Orange Knight said:

 

Haven't got the part. Also the way it attached means it can't actually be replaced easily. I need a whole new backpack.

 

Which part actually is it tho?

[DuskRaider]

GW will go to literally any lengths to avoid making Death Guard tougher, lol. The aura is only going to be a minor boost in short range and does nothing to make them more durable against medium - long range attacks, and even then it’s just a debuff to the enemy. Again, their solution to making subpar units seem better is to just allow you to bring more of them. 
 

They didn’t even drop the points on the Abominant either, who went from a generally good selection in 9th to probably the worst in 10th. Whatever. Just release Legions Imperialis already. 

[Orange Knight]

1 minute ago, Indy Techwisp said:

 

Which part actually is it tho?

 

The fancy targeting thing on top of his backpack. The Sgt has a unique one that represent his accuracy boosting rules.

 

I imagine many people won't care, but I have taken steps in creating a very accurately represented army on the tabletop.

[Indy Techwisp]

Actually on topic, the TSons Reddit catalogued our points changes:

 

Ahriman+20

Ahriman on Disc+25

Exalted Sorcerer+10

Exalted Sorcerer on Disc+10

Infernal Master+20

Magnus the Red+30

Mutalith Vortext Beast+20

Rubric Marines+10

Scarab Occult Terminators+10

Cultists-5

Daemon Prince-30

Daemon Prince with Wings-10

Defiler-10

Land Raider-10

Predator Annihilator+10

Predator Destructor+5

Sorcerer+10

Terminator Sorcerer+10

Vindicator-10

 

So not everything went up, but pretty much everything I use went up 

 

ETA: Also we can now only use [Echoes of the Warp] on Devastating Sorcery, Go to Ground and Command Reroll due to the changes to free stratagems.

Edited September 7, 2023 by Indy Techwisp
EotW rule

[Orange Knight]

Magnus the Red has escaped relatively unscathed. Are any of the TS rules modified beyond point adjustments?

[Rogue]

47 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

Along with the Eldar and other factions it is apparent GW doesn't want to change core army special rules substantially or redo them, despite the Index stage being the ideal period to do so. They're patching and patching existing rules but really should be just slashing and boring broken rules and restarting.

 

Feels like Cult Ambush got hit with a significant change. The basic rule is still the same, granted, but battleline units now return on 3s for turns 1/2, and 4s after that, and everyone else is now 4s then 5s. That's a big hit for battleline units.

 

Couple it with price increases across the board, and the stealth-nerf to the Nexos (hitting his free stratagem ability), and GSC are facing some pretty extensive changes.

[Doobles57]

1 minute ago, Orange Knight said:

 

The fancy targeting thing on top of his backpack. The Sgt has a unique one that represent his accuracy boosting rules.

 

I imagine many people won't care, but I have taken steps in creating a very accurately represented army on the tabletop.

In fairness unlike in 9th, there's no rules tied to the Sgt's wargear any more. And he's not specified to have anything different to the rest of the squad. So by current rules, your squad would be accurate.

 

That said, I get the frustration given the newness of the kit. I'd be just as inclined to blame the people running 30 of the things for forcing the change as I would be for GW for changing the rules.

[Dark Legionnare]

4 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

 

Haven't got the part. Also the way it attached means it can't actually be replaced easily. I need a whole new backpack.

 

I don't actually want to use the Vengor launcher.

 

And frankly, I shouldn't have to source bits for brand new units bought directly from GW,  built correctly as per official GW instructions.

Just joking of course, give ya something to smile about; we all (or at least most of us) know that pain. GW has been very hamfisted very often over the years.

The changes into 9th edition completely invalidating my 21 plague marines' overall loudouts as three squads of 7 was "my favorite" in quite a while. To a lesser extent, 10th too, but that was only a thing for a while too until they realized 'oops, the box is 7, we were just lazily CTRL+C & CTRL+V'ing again.

I would tell you not to modify anything. They'll probably go back to 10 some day. For now, just put a rock or something on one guys base to signify he's the sarge of that unit.  Unless you're really caring a lot, I saw the captain tidbit you mentioned, then I guess it's time to modify a lad.
 

[Indy Techwisp]

3 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

Magnus the Red has escaped relatively unscathed. Are any of the TS rules modified beyond point adjustments?

 

It's the Points, combined with the Strat change and the fact we're priced around having DevWounds on most of our army ('cause Sorcs).

 

The TSons reddit is predicting we're gonna drop off the bottom of the 45%~55% winrate now as our army's whole way of staying comeptitive died with DevWounds ceasing to be Mortals.

Edited September 7, 2023 by Indy Techwisp
why TSons are screwed

[Indy Techwisp]

Oh, and although it might seem like the obvious answer is to just change up what we bring for our armies, we literally do not have "other choices" we can bring.
It's cut major parts of your list or be unable to take a functioning list at all, vs Aeldari who can pivot to a different kind of list or GSC who can pivot to a new kind of list.

2 changes meant to hit Aeldar hit us harder than them and everything we can actually take to have a chance at being relevent in a match got a price hike.
We're gonna be joining DG, T'au and LoV at the bottom now, mark my words.

[DemonGSides]

Idk, Dev Wounds not being mortals now isn't exactly the worst thing.  You've got more play against anything with Mortal-Wound Defense (AKA Custodes, one of the other big boogeymen right now).  Your units all fire low damage dev-wounds, so that's actually even better, as the change really only screwed over Big Damage Dev Wounds.

Seems like crying before trying.  I wouldn't get too twisted about it.

[Orange Knight]

GW have failed, in my opinion, in exercising the appropriate level of finesse with these updates.

 

Desolators could have been fixed by removing the ability for any characters to join them.

Other universal rules didn't need to be adjusted because certain armies abused them more than others, but those armies needed to change.

 

I do, however, agree with the towering change and some more positive alterations to unit profiles. Ultimately, they need to be more mindful of the impact of these adjustments to players who aren't abusing particular combinations. 

Edited September 7, 2023 by Orange Knight

[Indy Techwisp]

1 minute ago, Orange Knight said:

GW have failed, in my opinion, of exercising the appropriate level of finesse with these updates.

 

Desolators could have been fixed by removing the ability for any characters to join them.

Other universal rules didn't need to be adjusted because certain armies abused them more than others, but those armies needed to change.

 

Half of the big price jumps are because exactly one loadout is way too good.
Most of our Sorcs are priced as tho they've got Plasma Pistols
They don't even come with Plasma in the box, why should I be paying for that gun?