Potential Codex Space Marine Leaks

[Alternis]

23 minutes ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

The thing with oaths is that it it can feel really poor for the opponent to get a lynchpin unit oathed down by capable marine stuff, bypassing modifiers to hit or wound you were relying on. Doubly so, if your army was largely stripped of sources of rerolls.

 

Of course, we also know that know that (pre-update) marines rather needed oath to hit their mediocre win rate. Idk what it's going to look like now, but plain nerfing it probably wouldn't be the best idea; transferring power back into the units while lessening the effect wouldn't be terrible though. 

The only logical explanation I can see why OoM would get toned down is due to units abilities getting buffed 

 

There have been rumours and “third party confirmations” that the new jump assault Captain for eg will get a smash Captain type loadout that isn’t necessarily in the box and their abilities are going to change 

 

if this turns out to be true as written in codex, I can understand why the nerf to OoM had to happen to avoid SM jumping to replace Eldar

[WrathOfTheLion]

It'll be interesting to see what comes of it. I don't have an opinion yet until we see what the Codex looks like in full.

[Lemondish]

2 hours ago, Alternis said:

There have been rumours and “third party confirmations” that the new jump assault Captain for eg will get a smash Captain type loadout that isn’t necessarily in the box...

 

(X) Doubt

Edited September 17, 2023 by Lemondish

[Indy Techwisp]

1 hour ago, Lemondish said:

(X) Doubt

 

While it is a stretch, there's also been rumours that the whole "Primaris X and Firstborn X being different datasheets" is also getting thrown out in favour of just a single datasheet, so it's possible that GW have decided to roll all the options from Primaris and Firstborn versions into one datasheet so you can use either model on the table.

Obviously a massive reach with this, but it could be the case.

Edited September 17, 2023 by Indy Techwisp

[Sir Clausel]

13 minutes ago, Indy Techwisp said:

 

While it is a stretch, there's also been rumours that the whole "Primaris X and Firstborn X being different datasheets" is also getting thrown out in favour of just a single datasheet, so it's possible that GW have decided to roll all the options from Primaris and Firstborn versions into one datasheet so you can use either model on the table.

Obviously a massive reach with this, but it could be the case.

 

I reaaaaaally hope this reach will be correct. I lot of people will lose even more miniatures they have build and painted already.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

7 hours ago, Karhedron said:

 

The problem is that we can see from the results that Oath is not causing a problem. Marines are sitting in the mid-40s winrate which is well below the 50% target. Factions like Knights and Custodians which are supposedly the prime targets of Oath are performing much better. What this suggests is that Marines overall a weak faction and Oath is simply helping to prop them up. If you weaken Oath, Marines will sink even lower unless something else is added to boost them.

 

I agree that SM were pretty weak but I think OoM being crutch isn't a good thing. I think it makes it harder to balance units, and by its very nature its going to be great against some opponents and bad against go wide armies. Its actually one of my big issues so far with this edition is that the army rules just vary in power tremendously and I think it overshadows other issues with some armies.

 

I would rather the base marines feel more elite than have an army rule that props them up a bit. For what its worth I also think that adding in more detachment options is going to probably help out a lot. That and they hit TS, GSC, and Custodes harder than Aeldari with the nerf bat so its going to be a new meta soon (I tend to think Eldar and GSC are still going to be 1 and 2 but I hope I am wrong).

 

3 hours ago, Alternis said:

The only logical explanation I can see why OoM would get toned down is due to units abilities getting buffed 

 

There have been rumours and “third party confirmations” that the new jump assault Captain for eg will get a smash Captain type loadout that isn’t necessarily in the box and their abilities are going to change 

 

if this turns out to be true as written in codex, I can understand why the nerf to OoM had to happen to avoid SM jumping to replace Eldar

 

I hope they leave the smash captain in, but I'd be shocked at this point. They just don't give rules for things that aren't in the box anymore, if they can help it. 

[Marshal Reinhard]

52 minutes ago, Indy Techwisp said:

 

While it is a stretch, there's also been rumours that the whole "Primaris X and Firstborn X being different datasheets" is also getting thrown out in favour of just a single datasheet, so it's possible that GW have decided to roll all the options from Primaris and Firstborn versions into one datasheet so you can use either model on the table.

Obviously a massive reach with this, but it could be the case.

It'd perhaps finally put an end to the better part of a decades worth of teeth gnashing. Pessimist in me thinks it too good to be true

[Alternis]

1 hour ago, Indy Techwisp said:

 

While it is a stretch, there's also been rumours that the whole "Primaris X and Firstborn X being different datasheets" is also getting thrown out in favour of just a single datasheet, so it's possible that GW have decided to roll all the options from Primaris and Firstborn versions into one datasheet so you can use either model on the table.

Obviously a massive reach with this, but it could be the case.

They’ve already started doing this with notable Captains and lieutenants, the only difference is armour types I.E Phobos, Gravis, Terminator.

However if it’s Mark X, they all just get 1 profile with loadout changes now. 
 

Stretch as it may be, it’s not out of the realms of possibility.

We know the new SM stuff has been sent out to certain streamers/influencers, most of which won’t discuss the changes (for one reason or another, probably NDA) openly until closer to the release date, but what little scraps people can gather up seems to be based on something, rather then just fabricated up out of the ether. 

 

There is also leaks out in the wild re the new SM detachments, I say this from a place of comfortability that what we’re hearing about might actually have some substance behind it.

That being said naturally our resident cynics will be fast to shoot down any rumours/leaks without hard evidence and that’s totally ok, everything to be taken with your daily recommended allowance of Salt, but I’m choosing to believe what I’ve seen and heard so far. 

[Karhedron]

10 hours ago, Wormwoods said:

We'll see if an extra unit or two from the price change will affect things? I'm not expecting the new assault squads to move the needle much with the overall quality of close combat in 10th, but more bodies on the field may do work. We'll see. 

 

My first post-balance slate game was Aeldari vs Marines. It was very close to a game we played a month ago. Eldar had to trim off a Death Jester and Illic to meet the new points while the Marines fitted in an extra squad. The game made it to turn 3 before the Marines folded compared to Turn 2 last time. The points changes helped a bit but not enough and I feel stronger medicine is needed.

[mecanojavi99]

The thing about Primaris characters not having the Primaris name on it doesn't mean that they have merged the datasheets, the new Jump Captain isn't called Primaris Captain with Jump Pack, just Captain with Jum Pack even tho it's Primaris, the same applies to the Primaris Chaplain on Bike being renamed to just Chaplain on Bike in the Index.

 

They are removing the old Firstborn Datasheets and leaving the Primaris ones, since they are the only ones left in the Codex there is no need to add Primaris in front of the name, there is now only 1 Captain on foot.

 

About Cassius being Deathwatch exclusive, it wouldn't make sense, the Deathwatch Cassius model represents a younger version of him before he became the Master of Sanctity of the Ultramarines, the most likely explanation instead is that he is going to cross the Rubicon and given a new model.

 

Other than that, looks like Telion and Chronus have been axed, I can see Telion being made a Phobos Captain, but I have the feeling that Chronus is gone for good.

[Orange Knight]

Hmmm. Codex sounds much weaker than the Index.

 

To add, Marines are already struggling in the existing meta. Hard to be excited about anything shown.

[Handsome Fred]

The oath in the codex changed could be due the codex was writen a way before the index alongisde combat patorl.

And once out a faq will change it in the full reroll.

Edited September 18, 2023 by Handsome Fred

[Orange Knight]

9 minutes ago, Handsome Fred said:

The oath in the codex changed could be due the codex was writen a way before the index alongisde combat patorl.

And once out a faq will change it in the full reroll.

 

Nothing I like more than buying a book that is out of date before it even goes on sale! Lol

[Marshal Reinhard]

Almost as if very rapidly changing rules contents and the printed media form mix as well as water and oil does.

[Interrogator Stobz]

My printed Index and Legends booklet will see me through until about 14th Edition.

[Cpt_Reaper]

It's GW. You have two choices:

1. Printed media that is out of date on release day but you get a code for free digital rules that get updated accordingly
2. Printed media that is never updated during the edition/multiple editions

We can argue about what GW should or shouldn't do, but those are the choices and aren't likely to change any time soon. As someone who will never give up the dead tree format without a fight, I'll take printed media with a free digital version.

[Marshal Reinhard]

30 minutes ago, Cpt_Reaper said:

It's GW. You have two choices:

1. Printed media that is out of date on release day but you get a code for free digital rules that get updated accordingly
2. Printed media that is never updated during the edition/multiple editions

We can argue about what GW should or shouldn't do, but those are the choices and aren't likely to change any time soon. As someone who will never give up the dead tree format without a fight, I'll take printed media with a free digital version.

Thing is , you could just have your dead tree format for non rules contents? Lore, artwork, fluff.

 

What point is there in also having the rules there, if you're never gonna use those rules because said rules will have changed before the book was even out?

Edited September 18, 2023 by Marshal Reinhard

[Xenith]

22 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

The thing with oaths is that it it can feel really poor for the opponent to get a lynchpin unit oathed down by capable marine stuff, bypassing modifiers to hit or wound you were relying on.

 

This basically. Oaths is strong. Too Strong, and every marine player I know says it's too strong and they feel bad for using it. Being on the receiving also feels bad, as your best unit is mercilessly gunned down with infinite rerolls. Rules that make both players feel bad are bad rules. 

It seems, however, that OoM is the only crutch keeping marines near the target WR: The reasons for the pushback on the potetial nerf in this thread cements this (generally: "OoM isn't too powerful because marines have it and they're only on 42% WR, marines need OoM"). 

 

That Marines rely on one broken rule to stay at 40% WR is not great game design. And it is, saying this as a marine player, objectively broken. It's indicative of greater problems in the marine index, namely the insane points costs of some stuff, removing of weapons, and the best players jumping to Eldar to artificially suppress marine WR. 

 

Good thing that their detachments all seem useful and powerful, though, very much unlike the nid ones which are all worse than the index invasion fleet if you run a mixed army. All units getting both advance+charge & fall back and charge is much much better than what the nids got which is fall back and charge on everything and the 7 or so specific keyword units get advance and charge, along with keyword specific strats and enhancements. 

Edited September 18, 2023 by Xenith

[Cpt_Reaper]

14 minutes ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

Thing is , you could just have your dead tree format for non rules contents? Lore, artwork, fluff.

 

What point is there in also having the rules there, if you're never gonna use those rules because said rules will have changed before the book was even out?

I'd never buy that book, because I can just get my lore online or in black library novels. But, if the lore, art and fluff was part of the codex, then it's something to nice to have alongside the rules. I also feel the need to point out that the majority of rules in a codex are fine day 1, with the exception of one or two rules. So I can still refer to a hardcopy book when working on projects at home. For example, OoM might be FAQ'd day 1, but most unit loadouts aren't going to be. Things that are Characters will remain so, as will Battleline. So for the most part a physical book will still get tonnes of use. And the book comes with a code to free updated rules, so technically the product isn't out of date day 1.

[Orange Knight]

Alternatively they could just write a better balanced set of rules from the offset?

 

The competitive community can often recognise when something is too strong or too weak very quickly,  so why can't GW?

 

 

[Karhedron]

3 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

Alternatively they could just write a better balanced set of rules from the offset?

 

The competitive community can often recognise when something is too strong or too weak very quickly,  so why can't GW?

 

Lack of time and money. I have heard anecdotally that playtesting for 10th edition was extremely limited. Whilst I always take such stories with a pinch of salt, the level of imbalance in the Index rules makes me think it is plausible at least.

 

The other thing to remember is that GW is not particularly interested in balanced rules, at least not as a core part of their business strategy. They view themselves a model manufacturer first and foremost. The rules are simply there to help sell the minis.

[Orange Knight]

I have no doubt that time was short, but we have to keep in mind that GW set and work by their own timetable.

 

It's true that they value model releases and sales ahead of rules. That's not an issue by itself. I'd rather they sold me a book with shaky balance instead of one which is immediately invalidated.

 

At the moment we have the worst of both worlds. Invalidated printed rules AND poor balance despite this.

Edited September 18, 2023 by Orange Knight

[Xenith]

8 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

GW is not particularly interested in balanced rules, at least not as a core part of their business strategy.

 

I'd say that while balanced rules from the outset may sell a hardcore tourney goer one army per edition, unbalanced rules and constant tweaks can sell them 4-5 armies over an edition.

[Interrogator Stobz]

20 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

...

Lack of time and money. I have heard anecdotally that playtesting for 10th edition was extremely limited. Whilst I always take such stories with a pinch of salt, the level of imbalance in the Index rules makes me think it is plausible at least.

...

It's not anecdotal; GeeDub admitted it on their Fb site around 10th launch time.

They stated how many people involved (5-6ish) and how many games were played by them (Not that many each). 

They stated they would leave balance up to the tournament results, so basically tournament players are their playtesters.

 

This Dex will be out of date in days most likely. Shame, I needed rules for my Green DA; but as I mentioned above, a nice printed and bound Index and Legends collection will do better for less.

[Marshal Reinhard]

1 hour ago, Cpt_Reaper said:

I'd never buy that book, because I can just get my lore online or in black library novels. But, if the lore, art and fluff was part of the codex, then it's something to nice to have alongside the rules. I also feel the need to point out that the majority of rules in a codex are fine day 1, with the exception of one or two rules. So I can still refer to a hardcopy book when working on projects at home. For example, OoM might be FAQ'd day 1, but most unit loadouts aren't going to be. Things that are Characters will remain so, as will Battleline. So for the most part a physical book will still get tonnes of use. And the book comes with a code to free updated rules, so technically the product isn't out of date day 1.

So... you specifically want it for rules you will never use?

 

EDIT: Apologies, that's a bit too one liner-y of me. Yeah, you'll use the updated digital version. And use the dead tree version for the things that aren't changed. Sure. I wish to show I acknowledge this, fair enough, but I think my perhaps uncharitable one liner framing above will still be relevant for others. That's how I see it for one. I'd hate having to swap between digital and book because the book on its own cannot be used. I'd like one version where everything is correct and used. But not everyone's like me

Edited September 18, 2023 by Marshal Reinhard