Potential Codex Space Marine Leaks

[phandaal]

8 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

maybe, maybe not

 

Those are the two options, yes. 

 

It depends on how many special rules they have. If it is multiple special characters at less than 20 points apiece, that would be pretty wild. If it is bladeguard++, maybe not so crazy.

[GenerationTerrorist]

For me, I'd rather have a unit dedicated to either combat OR ranged. This seems like a mish-mash of both without the effectiveness of making either worthwhile.

 

If they could all run power weapons, or all run master-crafted Bolters, then I'd take them. But the seemingly fixed loadout makes me struggle to see how I would fit them in a list without sacrificing efficiency elsewhere.

[Blindhamster]

yeah... I was stating the obvious a bit there :P

 

1 hour ago, phandaal said:

 

Those are the two options, yes. 

 

It depends on how many special rules they have. If it is multiple special characters at less than 20 points apiece, that would be pretty wild. If it is bladeguard++, maybe not so crazy.

 

95 points doesn't include the captain. so 23ish ppm for the ancient, champ and 2 vets. Which is great compared the bladeguards 30ppm but the bladeguard do all have MC power weapons and storm shields.

 

all that said, the current command squad is 165 for 5 models (which is probably overcosted for what they do compared to bladeguard)

current command squad has 1 fewer wound per model, and based on rumours, 1 fewer attack too.

current command squad does have FAR more options for weapons, and wargear

current command squad has an apothecary

current command squad doesn't have the -1 to wound rule when with a character

 

I guess if the new squad is genuinely 95 points, the special rules the unit gets are almost certainly just the banner and the -1 to wound, dont expect honour or death or martial superiority

 

 

Edited September 29, 2023 by Blindhamster

[Mogger351]

7 minutes ago, GenerationTerrorist said:

For me, I'd rather have a unit dedicated to either combat OR ranged. This seems like a mish-mash of both without the effectiveness of making either worthwhile.

 

If they could all run power weapons, or all run master-crafted Bolters, then I'd take them. But the seemingly fixed loadout makes me struggle to see how I would fit them in a list without sacrificing efficiency elsewhere.

Those units exist, they're called sternguard and vanguard/bladeguard.

[Blindhamster]

the entire concept of the unit is actually really nice from a lore perspective.

The captain of the company surrounding themselves with advisors from the three core disciplines of the codex astartes and then an ancient to carry the company colours. If they made it so it could all be mono loadout, it would lose all its flavour and as above, there'd be no real point to them vs sternguard/vanguard/bladeguard.

 

As it is, as a retinue for a captain, they do have a lot of potential, particularly if they're competitively priced points wise.

[DemonGSides]

I just wish it was a whole unit including the captain that could attach to a whole other squad. Then you could make it a little more bespoke while also keeping the flexibility; want to attach it to a unit of Intercessors? Perfect, now they also have quite the counter punch in melee while retaining really solid shooting. 

[arnesh88]

The Command Squad probably won't be a competitive choice. They don't serve a distinct role that they excel at significantly more than other choices that can do other things.

 

However, I want them for a Crusade campaign. They just look really cool to me, and narrative campaigns is where I go style over substance (until my teeth are consistently kicked in).

[jaxom]

1 hour ago, Mogger351 said:

Those units exist, they're called sternguard and vanguard/bladeguard.

36 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

the entire concept of the unit is actually really nice from a lore perspective.

The captain of the company surrounding themselves with advisors from the three core disciplines of the codex astartes and then an ancient to carry the company colours. If they made it so it could all be mono loadout, it would lose all its flavour and as above, there'd be no real point to them vs sternguard/vanguard/bladeguard.

 

As it is, as a retinue for a captain, they do have a lot of potential, particularly if they're competitively priced points wise.

 

I think this is the biggest paradigm shift for Marines since 8th launched. Units that could hot-swap weapon loadouts could do everything, so the bespoke units which were mono-tasked usually got left in the dust. It's the sliding of scale "I want meaningful options for my units" vs "I want a reason to take this unit". It just came down to points efficiency for the tournament folks and modeling for the narrative folks. Now each unit either has a clear role on the table and/or a clear narrative intent. I love the fact that the unit has to include a Veteran with Bolt-esque weapon because the weapon silhouette is iconic to Marines and should be present in a Heroes of the Company style unit.*

*At least for Battle Companies.  

 

27 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

I just wish it was a whole unit including the captain that could attach to a whole other squad. Then you could make it a little more bespoke while also keeping the flexibility; want to attach it to a unit of Intercessors? Perfect, now they also have quite the counter punch in melee while retaining really solid shooting. 

I'm not against the idea. If it doesn't end up being part of the rules, this could be a unit you keep close to Intercessors for some Heroic Intervention action.

[SkimaskMohawk]

On 9/28/2023 at 7:40 AM, Blindhamster said:

But... they aren't competing with terminators, because the kind of characters they can go with cant go with terminators (and 5 terminators costs more than these do with an attached captain).

 

Their literal purpose is to go with a character, and with a character they do a good job of making said character more survivable thanks to -1 to wound vs the unit (melee and shooting), they also nicely supplement everything else about the character, augmenting the shooting and melee capabilities, all for the cost of a 5 man intercessor squad (which incidentally is only 2 more OC as well thanks to the ancient).

 

As @Karhedron said, when put in that context - I can absolutely see taking them in place of 5 intercessors.

 

or put another way:

3 bladeguard are 90 points

4 of these are 95 points

 

the bladeguard have better melee threat (assuming only one of the company heroes gets a power weapon)

the bladeguard have a 4++

the bladeguard can either reroll saves of 1 in melee or hit rolls of 1

 

the company heroes have 7 more wounds

the company heroes have 5 more OC

the company heroes melee threat can target characters

the company heroes have far more ranged threat

the company heroes likely have some rules for the champion (like the current firstborn command squad)

the company heroes almost certainly have more attacks per round in melee (as well as shooting)

if attaching a character, the company heroes get -1 to wound

 

both units likely have the same movement, toughness, save

 

 

I seem to have missed this yesterday, though the sprue pictures definitely help the discussion as they sadly show no options for the command squaders.

 

It doesn't really matter that you cant attach the same characters to the command squad as the terminators, unless you find something on the spectrum of bolter discipline, or even the price differential really; a character lead command squad needs to bring a niche that's both valuable and not already occupied. 

 

So it ain't going to be melee, because those terminators have higher melee output with fists against all profile bands. As does bladeguard, and I'm sure other equivalents like sword bros.

 

It's not going to be shooting, as 2 Mc bolt rifles and an MC heavy bolter just don't have the volume or strength/ap to impact much. You're running squarely into inceptor and heavy intercessor territory, with both units being cheaper. 

 

Maybe it'll be durability. The character lead command squad is effectively tougher than gravis against str7 and str12+ weapons, and the 4 wounds can kick in against 1 and 3 damage weapons. Theyre also effectively tougher than terminators against str3, 6-7, and 10+, though they're far less survivable due to the better armour and invul. Obviously they're just more durable than any t4 3+ save marine unit.

 

Maybe it'll be OC, but that tends to matter less when you can just get killed down by the unit looking to take the objective. Especially when your saves are pretty poor and you have to balance scoring vs peeking out to shoot your guns that are a baked in premium.

 

So we come to the intercessor comparison, and I actually completely agree; I'd totally take these guys over intercessors. Unfortunately, I find even intercessors a hard sell these days; there's cheaper objective standers in scouts/crusaders and better screeners in infiltrators. 

 

 

[Blindhamster]

I dunno man...

 

5 terminators is more points than these + captain based on the rumours, theres enough points left over that the captain probably has an enhancement too so potentially artificer armour (and they're still cheaper even then)

 

• 5 terminators have 15 wounds... these plus a captain have 21.
• terminators are more survivable vs high AP weapons (4+ vs probably 5+ for these guys) but as noted, these guys are actually tougher against a lot of attacks.
• terminators are OC 5 vs these guys 10
• terminators have 15 attacks which are admittedly stronger at Strength 8 AP-2 Damage 2 but... these guys would have 5 Strength 5 AP -2 Damage 2 attacks, 5 Strength 8 AP -2 Damage 2 attacks (if fist, 1 more attack and 3 lower strength if not) and 12 basic marine attacks. Depending on target, they really aren't going to be too far behind. Plus the champions 5 attacks being able to snipe a character in melee is good.
• terminators shooting is higher in volume but will also be MUCH lower in quality (8-16 basic bolter shots with no AP, and the assault cannon that also has no AP so is fishing for 6s vs these guys with lower volume of shots (4 MC bolt rifle shots and the MC heavy bolter plus whatever pistol the champion has and whatever the captain has). Terminators are likely ahead here but only barely.
• terminators are slower (which may or may not matter)
• these will also benefit from the captains finest hour once per game for a key combat (as in, his ability to go super nova, not them getting more attacks each) and also a free strat every turn, which means super easy access to armour of contempt if you need it, or to honour the chapter if they need it - which will make them the better combat unit if they do use that.

Really doesn't feel like there is all that much in it really - assuming you aren't attacking vehicles, at which point the terminators ability to get chainfists is huge.

 

[jaxom]

2 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

a character lead command squad needs to bring a niche that's both valuable and not already occupied.

Sure, from an optimized list building perspective. Personally, I like the narrative element.

[SkimaskMohawk]

3 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

5 terminators is more points than these + captain based on the rumours, theres enough points left over that the captain probably has an enhancement too so potentially artificer armour (and they're still cheaper even then)

 

5 shooting terminators are 190; a command squad is 95, a primaris/normal captain is 80 for 175. You can definitely add artificer or honour vehement if you want to make up the difference. Being 5 and even 15 points cheaper only matters when the savings opens up a new unit for you to take, or an extra enhancement that will dramatically help the unit.

 

3 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

5 terminators have 15 wounds... these plus a captain have 21.

 

Right, but that matters way less when they're easier to burn through.

 

3 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

terminators are more survivable vs high AP weapons (4+ vs probably 5+ for these guys) but as noted, these guys are actually tougher against a lot of attacks.

 

They're also more survivable against low ap weapons, since their save is better (unless I missed the part where the command squad has a 2+). Like a heavy bolter does an average 0.495 unsaved wounds to the command squad and 0.326 to the terminators. You'd need an average of 25 heavy bolt rifle shots to kill a command squadee and 29 to kill a Terminator. There's a very narrow range of weapons that the command squad are is better into, and they're far from the most common.

 

3 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

terminators are OC 5 vs these guys 10

 

Again, command squad is easier to kill for many units. And killing models to lower the OC is the fastest way to flip an objective.

 

3 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

terminators have 15 attacks which are admittedly stronger at Strength 8 AP-2 Damage 2 but... these guys would have 5 Strength 5 AP -2 Damage 2 attacks, 5 Strength 8 AP -2 Damage 2 attacks (if fist, 1 more attack and 3 lower strength if not) and 12 basic marine attacks. Depending on target, they really aren't going to be too far behind. Plus the champions 5 attacks being able to snipe a character in melee is good.

 

Being able to have a wider variety of targets is pretty big thing for terminators. Orks, plague marines, lychguard, gravis, possessed, etc....are all things you might need to fight off an objective. The precision might be good if he keeps martial superiority, otherwise you kinda average 3.6 wounds a turn to 3+ save targets, and that's...not that impressive. The characters that you do want to kill like a chaos lord, helbrecht, Abaddon, or other hidden beatstick will have more wounds and an invul to make it really unlikely to work.

 

3 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

terminators shooting is higher in volume but will also be MUCH lower in quality (8-16 basic bolter shots with no AP, and the assault cannon that also has no AP so is fishing for 6s vs these guys with lower volume of shots (4 MC bolt rifle shots and the MC heavy bolter plus whatever pistol the champion has and whatever the captain has). Terminators are likely ahead here but only barely.

 

Or the cyclone launcher to broaden their flexibility. I'll still say that having a unit with a major selling point be objective holding peeking out to average 2 dead marines, while lacking an invul or 2+ save, is...risky. 

 

3 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

terminators are slower (which may or may not matter)

 

They also have deepstrike.

 

3 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

these will also benefit from the captains finest hour once per game for a key combat (as in, his ability to go super nova, not them getting more attacks each) and also a free strat every turn, which means super easy access to armour of contempt if you need it, or to honour the chapter if they need it - which will make them the better combat unit if they do use that.

 

The free strat is really the only potential thing that's compelling in the Terminator comparison. Free and additional armour of contempt is very good, and helps the durability problem the command squad suffers from with the 3+ armour. But, going back to my original post talking about more than just terminators, I can't help but 3 BGV would benefit more from it. Or free honour the chapter. 

 

@jaxom

I'm not personally big on the new narrative they made for them. I liked that command squads were basically the captains huscarls and could idiosyncratic; I'm not a big fan of "you're forced to have a guy with no options to represent each doctrine". Also, my metas way too competitive focussed to allow for indulgent narrative choices; i don't particularly enjoy spending 30 minutes getting the missions set up, doing the WTC board, alternating deployment, and finally starting only to lose in a turn and a half because I'm playing at a handicap.

 

 

Edited September 29, 2023 by SkimaskMohawk

[Orange Knight]

I predict that the most effective way to use the Command Squad would be having 3 units, no characters. They become more durable harassment units with decent shooting and close combat that could perform a similar role to Intercessor squads... but better?

[Mogger351]

22 minutes ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

 

.Also, my metas way too competitive focussed to allow for indulgent narrative choices; i don't particularly enjoy spending 30 minutes getting the missions set up, doing the WTC board, alternating deployment, and finally starting only to lose in a turn and a half because I'm playing at a handicap.

 

 

I think this chunk has what is really the relevant bit. The unit simply isn't for you because it's maybe not the best in terms of point efficiency at the role you perceive it in, but that doesn't make it a bad unit at all.

 

And frankly that's OK.

[Malakithe]

6 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

I predict that the most effective way to use the Command Squad would be having 3 units, no characters. They become more durable harassment units with decent shooting and close combat that could perform a similar role to Intercessor squads... but better?

This...to me the Command Squad is there to protect a Leader but what is the purpose of bringing the Leader? And would that Leader be better in a different more focused unit? In the early days of 10th people were attaching Leaders to everything available and wasting their points which was a huge trap. The Command Squad is no different. Got to ask yourself why your bringing the Leader in the first place?

[Blindhamster]

Well, I happily bought the company heroes, I think they’re cool, and they clearly don’t suck even if some dedicated units are marginally better

[Wormwoods]

20 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

Well, I happily bought the company heroes, I think they’re cool, and they clearly don’t suck even if some dedicated units are marginally better

 

I'll be doing the same once I work through my remaining Leviathan backlog. I'm sure they're sub-optimal, but so's the rest of my army! They'll fit right in.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Annnnd you have to take a character with the unit :( 

 

 

[OrkPlayer137]

A few things I have seen in Youtube reviews - I was mostly focusing on things that affect firstborn or Terminators:

• Captain Sicarius gains TACTICUS keyword, so maybe a new Primaris model is coming soon.
• Jump Pack Captain still has thunder hammer and storm shield option, even though it's not in the kit! This is what surprised me most.
• Jump Pack Chaplain still present with all options, even though the Blood Angels model is the only one remaining for sale.
• Terminator Librarian can still take a combi-weapon, even though the new model does not have that option...presumably because the Blood Angels model still exists.
• Terminator Chaplain lost the combi-weapon option.
• Scout squads can take 1 missile launcher or heavy bolter per 5 models, and one sniper per 5. Chainsword is only sergeant option.
• Tactical Squads can split into combat squads instead of their index special rule.
• Heavy flamer/inferno pistol/hand flamer are gone from Tactical and Devastator squads.
• Dreadnought can still take a missile launcher (I thought that might go away because the Venerable Dreadnought kit does not have one).
• Razorback cannot take assault cannons.
• Most TACTICUS characters can join firstborn squads now where relevant.

Edited September 30, 2023 by OrkPlayer137

[Malakithe]

43 minutes ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

Annnnd you have to take a character with the unit :( 

 

 

Yep...according to the reviews it can only be a Captain or Chapter Master and the unit cant be attached to anything so...great for bits I guess?

[Orange Knight]

 

I found this really helpful vid.

 

She goes through all the data cards and points out changes. One immediate thing that's noticeable is that certain characters can join a lot more units.

 

[The4thHorseman]

2 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

 

She goes through all the data cards and points out changes. One immediate thing that's noticeable is that certain characters can join a lot more units.

 

 

Anywhere I can just read the information?

[Orange Knight]

2 minutes ago, The4thHorseman said:

 

Anywhere I can just read the information?

 

I haven't seen a full rundown yet, unfortunately. I'll keep looking. 

 

It's clear that GW have put restrictions on influencers and what they can and can't show. We used to get videos on pre order day of every page in the codex...

 

Edit:

 

As I was typing this I was watching the video, and have just seen confirmation that several Ultramarine characters have simply been retired from the codex!

I can imagine a similar fate for the niche heroes of other chapters as well.

Edited September 30, 2023 by Orange Knight

[arnesh88]

I'm excited that they changed Adrax Agatone back to being able to join Bladeguard Veterans.

[Orange Knight]

I think the Aggressors have overtaken the Terminators again.

 

3 things to consider:

 

1: The WS of Aggressors went up to 3+ with their Power Fists.

 

2: They have the Twin Linked rule in close combat.

 

3: They have better shooting.

 

 

Obviously they aren't quite as durable, but they are now a lot more offensively reliable. I think they are one of the big winners from the infantry in the codex, especially following the Oath nerf. Terminators were also hit with a nerfed "Fury of the First" rule.