Potential Codex Space Marine Leaks

[tzeentch9]

Oaths was overpowered with the wounds reroll, but marines were not. The army rules should be equivalent to each other and this was obviously better than most of the others.

[Frogian]

20 minutes ago, Cryptshadow said:

Wait, so a unit or equal units worth the same price as that one unit being able to kill that unit is over the top? Wouldnt that be balanced? A redemptor in a 1k game is also almost a quarter of that persons army so why shouldnt it kill the equvilent of its points? 

The issue isn't something killing something worth the same points, its doing it in a single turn fairly easily. 

Edited September 19, 2023 by Frogian

[Alternis]

4 minutes ago, Frogian said:

The issue isn't something killing something worth the same points, its doing it in a single turn fairly easily. 

I can confirm, that Hellblasters /P.Lieutenant or Desolation /P.Apothecary, either with bolter discipline and throw in Guilliman for good measure was a very strong chance to wipe a unit, then cripple a second unit, and wipe it with enough ranged support fire if you have repulsors/executioners laying around, you can easily destroy 2 units a turn with just mass re-rolls. 
 

And this was Vs Necrons with their very strong reanimation mechanic/stratagems.
 

Of course now I wonder how we will deal

with a Transcendant C’tan, with T11, 12W, +2, ++4, 4+ FNP. ~deep sigh~ 

 

I’m literally praying to the emperor unit abilities get buffed to offset it 

[Mogger351]

15 minutes ago, tzeentch9 said:

Oaths was overpowered with the wounds reroll, but marines were not. The army rules should be equivalent to each other and this was obviously better than most of the others.

There's no reason this has to be the case specifically. You can have an army of weak mooks with a good army rule, likewise an army of top end killers with a rubbish army rule, as long as army A is priced and balanced against army B. Oaths suffers because it's an extreme, it's incredibly good in one specific circumstance (in this case, I want unit X dead asap). It makes it hard to price a marine unit comparatively because it's output on the probability curve is simultaneously in 2 places at once.

[phandaal]

9 minutes ago, Frogian said:

The issue isn't something killing something worth the same points, its doing it in a single turn fairly easily. 

 

Yeah, especially with the "I go, you go" format. One unit of your army removes a quarter of the other guy's army, and then what does the rest of your army do? What is he left with to play out his own turn? Is that fun?

[Dr. Clock]

I suppose I just don't have that much sympathy for 'tall' army builds. If your game plan hinges on a single unit that's a quarter of your points and you can't or don't protect it from the first turn 'joust', then at least your game was short?

 

If you take a single Knight or 'this one centrepiece' then of course it's going to draw the most fire early. Distraction Carnifex has been a thing for eons... We have to factor in attrition and still have options to respond, so if you stack all your list's damage dealing in a single package that's easy to reach, your list will break too soon.

 

Some strategies are just chancey (World Eaters is that you?), and tall lists tend to be brittle. If you don't have redundancy, you don't have an army, just a target. The only other path in terms of game design leads straight to deathstars and I don't think we want to go there (yet). Heck - even in the dark old days of 7th turn 1 was always a nightmare if the enemy started shooting before you got your buffs up...

 

It does look like most of the detachments are getting 'more substantial army-wide' rules that soften the blow, and I'm okay with losing the re-roll to wound if it means we have more sweeping/substantial detachment abilities. That said, I don't understand who thought 'once per game re-rolls to wound for Oath target' and 'Army-wide Assault and +1S at 12"' are close in terms of impact. It looks like they may be trying to balance (Detachment Rule) + (Enhancements) + (Stratagems) all together instead of dividing them up, maybe? Like, First Co. Enhancements / Strats might be just a bit better than Firestorm to account for difference in basic benefit? For enhancements to be part of that they need to be taken in the first place, and likewise adding more powerful strats can be hard to balance vs. detachment rule because there's an opportunity cost for each one you do use in a turn. Time will tell.

 

I definitely enjoy the idea that I can 'build into' more than one of these just by swapping a couple units here and there... Between oldmarine Salamanders (Firestorm, Ironstorm, Anvil, 1st Co.) and Primaris Storm Lords (everything else) I shouldn't have much difficulty running any of the 7 options pretty convincingly. This lends itself really well to a ladder / narrative campaign IMO as well since you can line up obvious enemy detchaments game to game... Nids detachments are basically lined up to 'stages of an invasion' so starting with Scouts/Phobos vs. Vanguard organisms before Siege force vs. Swarm and then Armour vs. Crushers and  1st Co. vs. Synapse Node etc. would be a nifty way to tell a story and theme your 'encounters' across different battles. 

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

 

 

 

 

[jaxom]

1 hour ago, Dr. Clock said:

That said, I don't understand who thought 'once per game re-rolls to wound for Oath target' and 'Army-wide Assault and +1S at 12"' are close in terms of impact. It looks like they may be trying to balance (Detachment Rule) + (Enhancements) + (Stratagems) all together instead of dividing them up, maybe? Like, First Co. Enhancements / Strats might be just a bit better than Firestorm to account for difference in basic benefit?

Yes, and it's often forgotten about when people look at factions. Unit strength, faction ability, detachment ability, enhancements, and strats are all pieces of the same pie. When one gets bigger, one or more others need to get smaller. Without knowing all the info, the most we can do is guess. 

[tzeentch9]

19 hours ago, Mogger351 said:

There's no reason this has to be the case specifically. You can have an army of weak mooks with a good army rule, likewise an army of top end killers with a rubbish army rule, as long as army A is priced and balanced against army B. Oaths suffers because it's an extreme, it's incredibly good in one specific circumstance (in this case, I want unit X dead asap). It makes it hard to price a marine unit comparatively because it's output on the probability curve is simultaneously in 2 places at once.

Unfortunately that doesn’t work as some units will be better than others, especially when a shiny new unit is introduced with new models. So they will make better use of that good army rule than the lesser guys. Varying army rule strengths also punishes newer players or can simply put people off collecting that army if it is that weak

[Mogger351]

2 hours ago, tzeentch9 said:

Unfortunately that doesn’t work as some units will be better than others, especially when a shiny new unit is introduced with new models. So they will make better use of that good army rule than the lesser guys. Varying army rule strengths also punishes newer players or can simply put people off collecting that army if it is that weak

Why is that a problem though? As long as that unit costs more than the weaker unit in the same army, but the same as a unit in a different army with equivalent output (army rules included), that's a perfectly acceptable unit.

[Nephaston]

 

Fresh batch of rumours regarding the Vehicle Detachment and the Sneaky Detachment.

Edited September 20, 2023 by Nephaston

[Lemondish]

TLDW;

 

Ironstorm Spearhead - aka the Iron Hands detachment. Re-roll one hit, wound, or damage roll per unit, per phase. Seems to apply to ranged and melee. 

 

One enhancement mentioned, but Techmarine only. Vehicles within 6" get Lethal Hits.

 

3 Strats mentioned...

 

Machine Spirit's Revenge - 1CP, auto trigger deadly demise on vehicle death. 

 

Ancient Fury - 1 CP, Walker gets +1 move, +1 toughness, +1save, +1LD, +1OC and +1 to hit rolls until next command phase.

 

"Shoot an Enemy back with a vehicle" - 1 CP, If your vehicle was reduced below half strength, it can return fire at the offending unit. 

 

Vanguard Spearhead - aka Raven Guard. When > 12" away, -1 to be hit and count as in cover. No word if it's infantry only, or works on vehicles. 

 

Enhancements...

 

Character + unit get infiltrate.

 

Stratagems...

 

Strike from the Shadows 1CP, infantry only +1 to hit and 1 extra AP if firing more than 12" away. If you kill something they have to take a battleshock test.

 

Guerrilla Tactics - 1CP, return to strat reserves.

[Mogger351]

As a RG owner, quite happy with that tbh.

[Orange Knight]

Both of those detachments sound really good.

 

The Raven Guard one is probably the more competitive, but the Iron Hands detachment could be really fun too. The Techmarine ability sounds really powerful - hide him behind a few Repulsors and Gladiators and their damage output will increase significantly.

[Anticontrarian]

Oh, PLEASE tell me you can put that Enhancement on a Gravis Captain for a squad of infiltrating Chonky Boys.

 

No Tactical reason, it's just a hilarious idea.

[Karhedron]

All vehicles within 6" of a Techmarine getting Lethal Hits is pretty powerful. The stratagems look a bit weak but I find If I am running a vehicle-heavy list then I normally pop Smoke most turns.

[Stupidity]

 

 

Too bad You cant use Guerilla Tactics on units in melee. Would have been nice to make Shrike less of a suicide bomber. Still seems good on some Inceptors though, or mid-late game phobos troop movement.

 

Other rules seems solid as well, hopefully the rest of them have nothing to do with deepstriking or infiltrating. 

Edited September 26, 2023 by Stupidity

[Angelus Nex]

More auspex tactics rumours. 

 

 

[Sir Clausel]

The company heroes seems very strong. 4w per marine and -1 to wound when a character is attached can be difficult to remove.

The salamanders detachment seems very powerfull! Devastating wounds on flamers can be used twice with a captain. And +1 to wound in both shooting and fighting is stroooong.

Edited September 28, 2023 by Sir Clausel

[Lord_Valorion]

Link is dead. Is there a text version?

[Kastor Krieg]

6 minutes ago, Lord_Valorion said:

Link is dead. Is there a text version?

The link works OK. No text version, it's a YT video.

[Angelus Nex]

Took some screenshots of the summaries.

[Karhedron]

42 minutes ago, Angelus Nex said:

Took some screenshots of the summaries.

 

Company Heroes look pretty good but I have a couple of question before I go and splash out on them.

• Can they attach Characters other than a Captain?
• Does the Champion grant a free Heroic Intervention as per the other Champions?

I am looking for a bodyguard for Mephiston and these guys might fit the bill.

[Orange Knight]

The Hero unit actually sounds pretty cool.

 

I just don't know what I would be doing with it? It's too much like a classic Marine unit - it seems unfocused and disjointed in purpose.

[Mogger351]

12 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

The Hero unit actually sounds pretty cool.

 

I just don't know what I would be doing with it? It's too much like a classic Marine unit - it seems unfocused and disjointed in purpose.

I thought that's what all the Primaris detractors wanted, so hopefully they'll be happy! I imagine they're a good anchor on the end of a line or for holding a point with their defensive profile and the fact you both don't want to get shot or charged by them point for point.

[Orange Knight]

Probably, but a unit like this isn't going to be particularly cheap.

 

I just don't see why I would run it ahead of a dedicated squad like Bladeguard, Hellblasters or Aggressors.