Codex Space Marine Previews

[Frogian]

12 hours ago, Lemondish said:

 

Never mind what the numbers say either, I suppose?

i would think a lot of people (myself included) care more about whether they and their opponent are having fun, rather than what the competitive scene win rate is. 

[Karhedron]

13 hours ago, redmapa said:

I hope Vanguard Veterans get fixed, its a cool unit that currently just sucks for no reason so fingers crossed they show case the new Assault squad and Vanguard Veterans and their rules in an article soon, I got like 30 Assault Interecessors that are about to get a Jump Pack instead of walking around like a bunch of jabronis. 

 

I don't actually think VanVets suck, they are just a very different unit to their 8th/9th edition incarnations. For 21 points a model you basically get an Assault Marine with Jump Pack and +1S. The loss of special weapons means they don't threaten big targets anymore but they are great at clearing out infantry. Even MEQs will have to worry about that many attacks at S5 Ap-1. Plus they can swap out their pistols for Storm Shields giving them a very welcome 4++ meaning that if they do need to tackle large targets, they have the durability to hang in there until you can bring something heavier to tackle it.

 

Add a Jump Captain and you get +1S on the charge and a free stratagem. The Captain can also take something heavier like a power fist to deal with tougher targets. Alternatively, take a Chaplain and you get +1 to Wound all the time which is really strong and you can dish out a couple of MWs each time you fight. Blood Angels can add a Sanguinary Priest for an extra point of AP and a 5+ FNP.

4 minutes ago, Frogian said:

i would think a lot of people (myself included) care more about whether they and their opponent are having fun, rather than what the competitive scene win rate is. 

 

While that is true, I don't see rerolls as inherently unfun whereas fighting a battle where one side is consistently stronger than the other is definitely a buzz-kill.

[Frogian]

i also don't see rerolls as inherently unfun, i think they are a great way to show the strength of a certain unit, character or weapon, but thats really beside the point to the unit deletion effect of OoM. 

 

I think really you want the strengths of any specific army to be pretty stable and not just a in this one particular instance/place they are super tough, and weak elsewhere. OoM felt like the latter with the army feeling a bit lacking elsewhere. i think the new detachments look fun, but what i really want is better boosts from characters. 

[CCE1981]

I have not found Oath of Moment to be an auto deletion.  If I need to pump 1,000 pts of my army into a 300 pt army and still need Oath of Moment to make sure that it happens Oath of Moment is not an auto deletion mechanic.  I don't mind Oath of Moment going away if there is something that replaces it, the preview that we saw says that there are more re-roll to wound mechanics in the codex but then fails to show any off to lessen the blow.  I am of the opinion that they could "shown and not told" us.  Instead of an "*" give us a couple of previews of new ways we can get wound re-rolls. a "sorry we are removing re-rolls to Wound here are a couple of new ways that you will be able to re-roll to Wound." Would go a long way to mitigate the "feels bad" of "We are nerfing you, rest assured it's not all bad, just trust us, really, no we actually are."

[DemonGSides]

19 hours ago, Indy Techwisp said:

 

TSons were "too strong" and nerfed into the ground at 54%, so being within the "aimed for" bracket means  all.

 

They're still really strong.  They lost no actual power, just amount of toys to bring to the battle.  Still very strong.

 

15 hours ago, Lemondish said:

 

Never mind what the numbers say either, I suppose?

 

More people play marines than anything else, so I think looking at competitive W/L rate in a vacuum to make all decisions is silly and naive.

[Karhedron]

1 hour ago, DemonGSides said:

More people play marines than anything else, so I think looking at competitive W/L rate in a vacuum to make all decisions is silly and naive.

 

In terms of player numbers, that is true. In competitive tournaments I expect it is not so much the case. Tournament data is the best source of results GW has access to and does have the advantage of being performed by competitive players who are actively seeking out advantages. Any over-strength units and armies will be highlighted by their abundance and under-strength ones by their absence.

 

The only real alternative would be exhaustive in-house playtesting using rigorous methodology some way to account for the RNG nature of dice. It has already been made clear by their own account that GW has neither the resources nor the inclination to do that kind of testing so tournament data is the best that is available.

[Rogue]

Is that an advantage, though? I feel like it just means that one particular approach to the game is balanced, and everything else just tags along. 

 

Like, maybe a GSC list with 100 neophytes and 3 Primus and all the gubbins was really good. But most people don't own all that, and can't run the tournament-standard list. So if you balance GSC as if we're all doing that, you're not balancing the armies that most people play.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

Slightly OT, but.. IMO, this should be a warm fuzzy to all Death Guard players out there that we could see some resilience return to the Army once we get the codex. Who knows, GW may drop the ball again (probably will), but this is at least an example of how we could see FNP and such return. 

I wonder what they 1CTF restrictions will be? 

Edited September 19, 2023 by Bloody Legionnaire
grammer

[nodnol88]

Hope we see some powerful ability tweaks to units. Outside of just bumping up strengths and toughnesses, or adjusting point costs, it would be fun to see some very powerful but specialized abilities that leans into the specializations we see across modern marine units. 

[Wolf Guard Dan]

I’m worried for Space Marines due to the Oath of Moment change. I know they say they’re adding reroll wounds abilities but the only example was the Extremis level threat detachment rule… but if that is the detachment’s only rule it’s bad. We’ll have to see what enhancements are available. Tyranids didn’t get too many data sheet changes so I don’t expect help from that.

 

Maybe it’s going to be a twin linked weapon meta for marines

[DemonGSides]

3 hours ago, Karhedron said:

 

In terms of player numbers, that is true. In competitive tournaments I expect it is not so much the case. Tournament data is the best source of results GW has access to and does have the advantage of being performed by competitive players who are actively seeking out advantages. Any over-strength units and armies will be highlighted by their abundance and under-strength ones by their absence.

 

The only real alternative would be exhaustive in-house playtesting using rigorous methodology some way to account for the RNG nature of dice. It has already been made clear by their own account that GW has neither the resources nor the inclination to do that kind of testing so tournament data is the best that is available.

Careful, the literal narrative around here is that Tournament players are NOT WAAC players, therefore they are just as prone to take whatever as a casual list, which means that most likely Space Marines will ALSO be over-represented at tournaments.

I've been screamed at enough times to not try to engage w/ ANYTHING that has to do with the "competitive" playstyle.

Edited September 19, 2023 by DemonGSides

[Alternis]

30 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

Careful, the literal narrative around here is that Tournament players are NOT WAAC players, therefore they are just as prone to take whatever as a casual list, which means that most likely Space Marines will ALSO be over-represented at tournaments.

I've been screamed at enough times to not try to engage w/ ANYTHING that has to do with the "competitive" playstyle.

Yes they do get rather sensitive the moment you have an opinion that doesn’t align with their own narrative, or very aggressive and start throwing around elitist behaviour. 
 

I’ve had my own issues re this and lots of gatekeeping in certain circles. 
 

shame we can’t just respect each others opinions and enjoy the hobby, but such is life, all we can do is walk away from certain conflicts and hope for the best

[Lemondish]

16 hours ago, Frogian said:

i would think a lot of people (myself included) care more about whether they and their opponent are having fun, rather than what the competitive scene win rate is. 

 

I think it's a truly Sisyphean task to say that rerolls are "not fun". But to each their own, I just find the hate against Oaths to be wildly out of proportion to how effective it actually isn't.

 

But thanks to the flexibility of this game system, you can always agree to change the rules if you're not playing in the competitive scene. Maybe try to ask your Marine opponent to play the weaker version if you need it to play a fair game. After all, GW can only attempt to balance the armies - it's up to you to balance the players haha

Edited September 20, 2023 by Lemondish

[Matrindur]

Just a short heads-up, the same person who leaked the AoS Ironjawz reveals and the Tyranid preorder date said SM would be announced this Sunday for next Saturday. Not that surprising since they already started with their articles but still nice to know

[OttoVonAwesome]

21 hours ago, Karhedron said:

 

I don't actually think VanVets suck, they are just a very different unit to their 8th/9th edition incarnations. For 21 points a model you basically get an Assault Marine with Jump Pack and +1S. The loss of special weapons means they don't threaten big targets anymore but they are great at clearing out infantry. Even MEQs will have to worry about that many attacks at S5 Ap-1. Plus they can swap out their pistols for Storm Shields giving them a very welcome 4++ meaning that if they do need to tackle large targets, they have the durability to hang in there until you can bring something heavier to tackle it

Imagine you didn't build them with Chainswords though. They definitely suck compared to thier previous incarnation same with so many other units with storm shields as an option and then you look at Death Company who are luaghing at you cuase they can still take all that equipment only difference is that storm shield. Assualt marines still cuase mortals on the charge and for a week or two have better options. What do they cost and who's actually more effective?

 

If GW was worried these units would be too powerful then they already screwed up getting rid of the Force org chart and setting a base unit cost not counting wargear and well... Eldar. I dunno 10th is just insanely broken and it kinda kills me that 9th was basically balanced right before they flipped the table also alot of the philosophy behind 10th rules design seems to be centered on saving time designing rules in the first place. It reeks of cost cutting corporate mentality and say what you want about 30k and the OP stuff and lack of support but it was not this broken on release.

 

We are nerfing OoM now? Really? So the indexes being digital didn't mean anything and the current data doesn't either cuase of codex release cycles? How much money do they even make off books that they can just dumpster a whole editions worth of print basically the second they finally get to the last one in the "cycle"? Brilliant when is the balance data slate after this one? Geuss I'm sticking with 30k cuase the last three editions... It's just insane the disconnect between every other game and 40k at this point. I couldn't imagine playing in a tournament right now cuase it's bring one of 4 armies or eat and I don't think anything is changing if anything it's gonna get worse. 40K has been a constant cycle of change for the sake of change throwing the baby out with bath water whatever you analogy you wanna use.

 

I know crazy rant but last thing is the balance isn't even really balanced because it's based on the tournament meta wich is a dozen ruins and nothing else. Imagine how much easier it would be to deal with say Custodes if you could actually shoot them. Why is there even rules for different terrain types if every competitive match is just ruins. How can you measure the effectiveness of a unit when the only terrain is LoS blocking. Of course no one wants to play against legends or anything or anything non tourney standard when anything non tourney standard is far removed from the regular game that it's irrelevant because the points and balance are based on a singular meta set by a standard terrain set up.

 

Sorry super salty about 10th. We are all just prisoners of whatever the hell is going on over there. Some of the stuff looks good. First company looks cool. Doubt it will be meta but that's a white dwarf list I always wanted that never happened. 

Edited September 20, 2023 by OttoVonAwesome

[Burni]

5 hours ago, Matrindur said:

Just a short heads-up, the same person who leaked the AoS Ironjawz reveals and the Tyranid preorder date said SM would be announced this Sunday for next Saturday. Not that surprising since they already started with their articles but still nice to know

Thanks for the info. Do we know if the Tyranid datacards are a 'one print run and done' deal like the AoS ones often were? There's nothing that interests me from this incoming range of SM kits but I might pick up the SM cards if they are likely to be hard to get later.

[LostTemplar]

I am curious as to the captain's bodyguard unit, and how that works

[Emperor Ming]

1 hour ago, LostTemplar said:

I am curious as to the captain's bodyguard unit, and how that works

Like an IG command squad prob

[chapter master 454]

We'll see how it shakes out. OoM as it is seems polarising here, we have opinions on both sides and people ether feel its a needed rule for the army (and thus would qualify as a crutch) and others say it was too good and a problem for balance moving forward (and so poorly designed).

As a knight player I won't weigh in too much, because any opinion will likely be clouded by my experience with knights.

 

From my point of view and from what I hear of my clubs members who have attended many tournaments that they feel marines are strong, but only when you don't consider Eldar. However a lot of them would share that opinion that right now, eldar just warp everything and so measuring armies by tournament win rates may not tell a full picture as you need to consider that every faction is getting its teeth put in backwards by the top of the top dogs.

Not saying that other factions aren't in need of help but do keep it in mind.

 

As for the reveals, I wonder if the point of the 1st company detachment may actually not be in the detachment rule but in the enhancements and stratagems. After all, it is an elite force detachment which would have a lot of leaders normally. So having the capped out limit of 3 enhancements for that detachment may be quite powerful. Again, giving a lot of the benefit of the doubt here (read: mountains of it) but ultimately all we can say is that there is a lot of "interesting" decisions being made here for the codex and we'll see if those decisions were made on good info or not.

 

Failing that we could just give marines the reverse votann and errata them day one to have old oaths back and give the 1st company detachment...I don't know...lollipops or something...meh...I know...improve their leadership by 1...yea. Perfect!

[KnightofSigismund]

I kind of expected an article today, wonder what’s up with that if it’s Sunday pre order?

[Blindhamster]

Yeah the lack of articles doesn’t look great tbh

[Rhavien]

Guys, be realistic. We've already seen the new sources of wound reroll. It was right there in the preview. It's the 1st company detachment rule. Maybe also one or two enhancements will grant it, too. What, that's not enough you say? Let's wait for the snowflake chapters then. If the codex creep already is in full motion by that time one of those will be supreme. 

Oh GW, why can't you grow up and learn from your mistakes like everybody else. 

[DemonGSides]

24 minutes ago, Rhavien said:

Oh GW, why can't you grow up and learn from your mistakes like everybody else.

 

Come on now, if that were true the world would be a very different place :P

[Lemondish]

Interesting results from this past weekend of competitive events. Way too soon to come to any solid conclusions based on such limited data, but my confidence that Marines rely on Oaths as a crutch is a tad less structurally sound these days.

[Doctor Perils]

58 minutes ago, Lemondish said:

Interesting results from this past weekend of competitive events. Way too soon to come to any solid conclusions based on such limited data, but my confidence that Marines rely on Oaths as a crutch is a tad less structurally sound these days.

Could you provide a link for those who wouldn't know where to find this data please :)