Armageddon: The Space Marine Half

[ZeroWolf]

2 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

 

The previous one was also standalone and can be ordered direct from GW online.

 

I imagine the new Captain will replace him?

I feel GW need to consolidate some of the characters, especially some of the Phobos Lieutenants.

 

Speaking of standalone - the new Intercessors also have their own sprue. It's possible they replace the existing standalone kit. The Infernus squad kit that came with Leviathan became an individual release.

 

The Speeder will definitely have an individual release. The kit even has weapon and basing options, so it's pretty complete already.

More likely that the intercessor Armageddon sprue will be used for the starter sets and the next hatchett magazine. The individual release will be a multipart kit like the intercessor and assault intercessors did in 8th and 9th respectively. As to why Infernus didn't get the privilege, probably because GW didn't see much point in it.

[MoriyaSchism]

1 hour ago, siegfriedfr said:

I mean all those miniatures are cool, but it really feels that they have ran out of design space for the Marines.

Did they really run out of design space for Marines? That just seems like a lame excuse for not doing a job they get paid for. They just refuse to use a ton of design elements from the original Space Marine range and art. The Librarian is the best example, they did away with all the unique Librarius ranks and iconography just to engrave their armour and bedazzle them with blue gems. Have you noticed that the two most recent Librarian models have none of the traditional Librarius icons? No scrolls, no lightning bolts and so on. He's also lacking details that ground him as a soldier, no ammo, no grenades and most importantly no gun. I know this is a hobby and you can add all those bits yourself later, but do I really have to be on the hook to source a holstered gun for every single miniature I buy?

 

Do you remember the Primaris Company Champion models? The only design flair from the original Company Champion they kept was the knight helmet and then used nothing else. He was just a Bladeguard repeat from the neck down. Even generic codex compliant Space Marines have tons of things to draw upon, they just decided to make Space Marines more bland and worse in most aspects. Their proportions are the only thing what was improved with the introduction of Primaris. I had to wait until the Ultramarines got the Honour Guard refresh to get the Company Champion pauldrons back and the box just gives you one. It's laughable. It feels like they hired people who got bored of Space Marines or hate them to work on Space Marines models. Here are some examples of variation from the art and a comparison between the models to prove my point. They could do so much more but they choose not to. 

 

[Emicus]

Boltercator Sargeant Dakkaus demonstrating that drawing your sidearm is indeed quicker than reloading - even for a space marine.

[ThaneOfTas]

It does feel weird that the bolter Eradicators aren't belt fed tbh. Although I could see that being a thing in the multi part kit actually.

 

Infact I'm now more confident in that idea, both the Hellblasters in Dark Imperium and the Eradicators in Indomitus lacked the power cables to the back packs that their later multi part kits came with.

[phandaal]

11 minutes ago, MoriyaSchism said:

Did they really run out of design space for Marines? That just seems like a lame excuse for not doing a job they get paid for. They just refuse to use a ton of design elements from the original Space Marine range and art.

 

It is a weird thing, because the models are obviously meant to play on nostalgia, like this librarian's pose being an exact copy of the old mini.

 

As I am often informed, New Players make up 99.99% of GW's customer base, only know Primaris, and think OG Marines are literal dwarves made for people with one foot in hospice and the other foot in the grave. They would have no idea what ancient, pre-Fortnite, rizz-less sculpture this mini is supposed to represent.

 

But then these new models miss the actual thing people are nostalgic for, which is the armor design and other doodads from older minis.

[Lord Marshal]

1 hour ago, Evil Eye said:

Nah; they'll still be Primaris but they'll go back to oldscale/power squat posing and be on 25mm bases. 

 

We have exactly one year to go before 8th ed Primaris graduate from "soulless modern slop designed by committe made for money" and immediately become "svolfvl classics grafted with care and love that GW could never make again", so I guess it's as good a time as any.

 

14 minutes ago, phandaal said:

It is a weird thing, because the models are obviously meant to play on nostalgia, like this librarian's pose being an exact copy of the old mini.

 

As I am often informed, New Players make up 99.99% of GW's customer base, only know Primaris, and think OG Marines are literal dwarves made for people with one foot in hospice and the other foot in the grave. They would have no idea what ancient, pre-Fortnite, rizz-less sculpture this mini is supposed to represent.

 

But then these new models miss the actual thing people are nostalgic for, which is the armor design and other doodads from older minis.

 

In fairness, I do think that the amount of doodads and 'ancient warrior monkness' that was actually on the old Tactical Squads, compared to what a lot of people remember in their heads, was actually quite minimal (to say nothing of nearly all of them originally being MkVII with minimal bits from other Marks).

 

I think a lot of people conflate the artwork with how OldMarine models actually looked, outside of certain monky-chapters like Dark Angels and Black Templars.

 

Edited Sunday at 12:58 PM by Lord Marshal

[phandaal]

15 minutes ago, Lord Marshal said:

In fairness, I do think that the amount of doodads and 'ancient warrior monkness' that was actually on the old Tactical Squads, compared to what a lot of people remember in their heads, was actually quite minimal (to say nothing of nearly all of them originally being MkVII with minimal bits from other Marks).

 

I think a lot of people conflate the artwork with how OldMarine models actually looked, outside of certain monky-chapters like Dark Angels and Black Templars.

 

You make a good point here, but nothing in my post mentioned ancient warrior monkness.

 

The word "ancient" in my post is just a little bit of joking about how kids think anything that happened before they were born is ancient history. (It is much funnier when I explain it, right? )

Edited Sunday at 01:06 PM by phandaal

[Lord Marshal]

6 minutes ago, phandaal said:

 

You make a good point here, but nothing in my post mentioned ancient warrior monkness.

 

I mention it because, "But then these new models miss the actual thing people are nostalgic for, which is the armor design and other doodads from older minis" when a lot of people bring this line up, it's very often linked in with the same point.

 

Apologies if it came off as a bit "UM ASKUALLY."

 

Edited Sunday at 01:08 PM by Lord Marshal

[jaxom]

1 hour ago, MoriyaSchism said:

Have you noticed that the two most recent Librarian models have none of the traditional Librarius icons? No scrolls, no lightning bolts and so on.

 

The top model has three visible Lexicanium insignias I can see; the bottom has two visible Lexicanium insignias I can see. The difference being the top models belt buckle. The force staves both have a lightning design above the bottom ferrule. Both have the traditional keys and tome (lightning on the armor is for Codiciers and Epistolaries). If anything, I'd say the new Librarian looks more like an upscaled version of the top model, but put through a 2nd aesthetics filter... which makes a lot of sense because the 2nd ed librarians were desgned by Jes Goodwin. 

 

 

[MoriyaSchism]

1 hour ago, Lord Marshal said:

 

We have exactly one year to go before 8th ed Primaris graduate from "soulless modern slop designed by committe made for money" and immediately become "svolfvl classics grafted with care and love that GW could never make again", so I guess it's as good a time as any.

 

In fairness, I do think that the amount of doodads and 'ancient warrior monkness' that was actually on the old Tactical Squads, compared to what a lot of people remember in their heads, was actually quite minimal (to say nothing of nearly all of them originally being MkVII with minimal bits from other Marks).

 

I think a lot of people conflate the artwork with how OldMarine models actually looked, outside of certain monky-chapters like Dark Angels and Black Templars.

Every criticism I make about the Primaris line is based on models and the models that came before them. I think it's perfectly fair to compare the variety in the original Tactical Squad to the original iteration of the Intercessors. Even if it was mostly Mk VII with some inclusion of Mk VI and Mk VIII parts in the box, it's better than two repeats of the 5 identical Mk X sculpts of the Intercessor box. Some variety is always better than none at all and I'm pleased that they are moving away from the single pattern Mk X builds but it's not enough at the moment. None of my complaints are ever leveled Black Templars or the Inner Circle Companions. Those are fine for what they are supposed to represent, but I'm also not arguing that every Space Marine should look like a veteran or have the flair that belongs on chapters with a specific aesthetic. I also pointed out some concerning trends I've noticed like the Librarian where a specialist miniature is losing its unique iconography for the sake of a unified design language that never really existed on previous iterations.

 

1 hour ago, Lord Marshal said:

 

I mention it because, "But then these new models miss the actual thing people are nostalgic for, which is the armor design and other doodads from older minis" when a lot of people bring this line up, it's very often linked in with the same point.

 

Apologies if it came off as a bit "UM ASKUALLY."

 

I don't think you'll see anyone talk about how classic Intercessors are unless they were 11 years old in 2017. I don't think it's fair to use nostalgia as an excuse to dismiss criticism and other remarks about the current miniatures. Recently I've noticed posts pop up in response to talk about older miniatures by bringing up an unrelated controversial design as an attempt to de-legitimize their complaints. 

 

31 minutes ago, jaxom said:

 

The top model has three visible Lexicanium insignias I can see; the bottom has two visible Lexicanium insignias I can see. The difference being the top models belt buckle. The force staves both have a lightning design above the bottom ferrule. Both have the traditional keys and tome (lightning on the armor is for Codiciers and Epistolaries). If anything, I'd say the new Librarian looks more like an upscaled version of the top model, but put through a 2nd aesthetics filter... which makes a lot of sense because the 2nd ed librarians were desgned by Jes Goodwin. 

 

The spiked halo shape with the skull is the iconography associated with an Epistolary. The new guy just has the Epistolary icon on his cape and that's about it, unless you're talking about the skull on the chest but that's almost exactly the same icon as the Terminator Librarian. The 2nd edition iconography for all three Librarian ranks featured a lightning bolt design, present on the banners for all three ranks but only sculpted on the Epistolary and Codicier. 2nd Edition models also had normal gauntlets and normal armour. I just think the new aesthetic is inferior and lacking in character/appropriate adornment.

 

Edit: I also forgot to mention the leather gloves. Apart from Mephiston I can't think of a single other classic Librarian sculpt that wore those in place of regular power armour gauntlets. That was always a Chaos Sorcerer thing in my eyes.  

Edited Sunday at 02:28 PM by MoriyaSchism

[Subtleknife]

I do feel the intercessors refresh seems a bit of a wasted opportunity - both from a dataheeet and aesthetic view point.

 

I would have liked to see intercessors and assault intercessors roled onto a single unit. That not only removes a datasheet but makes the unit more flexible.

 

From an aesthetic PoV, I feel they could have gone further with the armour mks. Maybe have more bits on the armour to distinguish from the clean just off the factory look of first wave intercessors.

[phandaal]

13 minutes ago, Subtleknife said:

I do feel the intercessors refresh seems a bit of a wasted opportunity - both from a dataheeet and aesthetic view point.

 

I would have liked to see intercessors and assault intercessors roled onto a single unit. That not only removes a datasheet but makes the unit more flexible.

 

From an aesthetic PoV, I feel they could have gone further with the armour mks. Maybe have more bits on the armour to distinguish from the clean just off the factory look of first wave intercessors.

 

Whoever was in charge of the Space Wolf refresh should have also been in charge of the kit design for these new Intercessors.

[Nephaston]

44 minutes ago, jaxom said:

 

The top model has three visible Lexicanium insignias I can see; the bottom has two visible Lexicanium insignias I can see. The difference being the top models belt buckle. The force staves both have a lightning design above the bottom ferrule. Both have the traditional keys and tome (lightning on the armor is for Codiciers and Epistolaries). If anything, I'd say the new Librarian looks more like an upscaled version of the top model, but put through a 2nd aesthetics filter... which makes a lot of sense because the 2nd ed librarians were desgned by Jes Goodwin. 

 

 

 

The new guy also has the epistolary design on the corners of the cape, where usually it would be on the tabard.

 

Either way, the new guy has some empty space to paint on any Iconography that might be necessary. 5 aeons in Spectacle

[Blindhamster]

Personally really like the gloves on librarians. Makes another interesting visual distinction.

[Crimson Longinus]

I like the librarian apart the head. I just don't like the design of the psychic hat for either head. But that's easy to fix. I also am really not fussed about librarian ranks, as those basically do not exist any more. I think the runes and "gems" look better if you do paint them glowy and just paint them as the part of the armour with the same colour. 

[jaxom]

That was some good detail noting everyone who commented on the Librarian!

 

If I recall correctly, there was mention of Vanguard Veterans being "better on the charge." They do have new weapons, but this seems to me like their special ability is unchanged?

[Orange Knight]

@Lord Marshal made a great point about people's nostalgic memories and the actual models, and I believe people miss the artwork more than the reality.

 

Here is a take on a funny meme I remember from some years ago:

 

 

And...

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Damn. Looking that tactical is painful! I had forgotten how utterly terrible the proportions are. It is like the legs are from a model with completely different scale. 

 

(And I know. I had a minimarine army where I extended the legs of every bloody model. I'm really glad I don't have to do that any more.)

 

 

Edited Sunday at 04:03 PM by Crimson Longinus

[Lord Marshal]

1 hour ago, MoriyaSchism said:

I don't think you'll see anyone talk about how classic Intercessors are unless they were 11 years old in 2017. I don't think it's fair to use nostalgia as an excuse to dismiss criticism and other remarks about the current miniatures. Recently I've noticed posts pop up in response to talk about older miniatures by bringing up an unrelated controversial design as an attempt to de-legitimize their complaints. 

 

 

I've seen people speak fondly of Centurions these days; perhaps the most universally reviled kit I can remember (at least when it came out). I think even the new Corteaz caught less flak. If the Nemesis Babycarrier ever goes to Legends Purgatory I feel confident in saying a lot of people will suddenly realise they "always loved it."

 

I'm not in the business of outright dismissing criticism based off "oh it's just nostalgia, new thing good, I must cons00m ze slop" but there's definitely a cohort of people on the internet for whom the exact same model could be released today and would automatically despise it just by virtue of being new. Past a certain point it feels like getting into a discussion about something is pointless because the arguments don't really feel like they're being made in good faith, as you can guess what will be said next anyway.

 

I can't remember where I heard it, but somebody once said "if Desolators were in Dawn of War 1 they'd be beloved today" and I don't think they're incorrect.

 

Edited Sunday at 04:11 PM by Lord Marshal

[phandaal]

11 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

@Lord Marshal made a great point about people's nostalgic memories and the actual models, and I believe people miss the artwork more than the reality.

 

Here is a take on a funny meme I remember from some years ago:

 

[snip]

 

And...

 

[snip]

 

I am sure this thoughtful contribution will lead to totally on-topic discussion, and not another one of those arguments that people seem to hate seeing pop after they start them.

[MoriyaSchism]

11 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

@Lord Marshal made a great point about people's nostalgic memories and the actual models, and I believe people miss the artwork more than the reality.

 

Here is a take on a funny meme I remember from some years ago:

 

 

And...

 

There's just so much personality here. 

[jaxom]

20 minutes ago, MoriyaSchism said:

There's just so much personality here.

I'm not sure what you mean? The helmets or helmetless heads? Both?

[Lord Marshal]

20 minutes ago, MoriyaSchism said:

There's just so much personality here. 

 

They just swapped the MkVII helmets for MkIV?

 

;^)

[Scribe]

All they need do is release the old armour marks in the new scale, and all the primaris chatter other than their comical lore and the stupid rules goes away. I doubt anyone argues that the og Marines actually look better, they have not aged well.

[MoriyaSchism]

2 minutes ago, Lord Marshal said:

 

They just swapped the MkVII helmets for MkIV?

 

;^)

Funny that you mention that but the FW MkIV design is my least favourite helmet design. If anyone wants a pack of forty MkX helmets, hit me up.