Armageddon: The Space Marine Half

[Wispy]

2 minutes ago, MoriyaSchism said:

So when people convert them to look like classic Space Marines do these miniatures suddenly become worse? 

I respect these people because they are do-ers and not whiners.

[Wispy]

1 hour ago, Robbienw said:

No.  The heart of the problem is the Mk X range is very ugly.

 

Very few people obsess over mm size differences between model ranges.

Again, that's what you say but I don't believe you. "Oh it's ugly and we all think this!" is truly petulant cope. Any benefit of the doubt has washed away from a decade of belly aching.

Edited Sunday at 10:56 PM by Wispy

[MoriyaSchism]

2 minutes ago, Wispy said:

I respect these people because they are do-ers and not whiners.

What is that supposed to mean? If you're going to insult someone be direct. 

[Crimson Longinus]

3 minutes ago, MoriyaSchism said:

So when people convert them to look like classic Space Marines do these miniatures suddenly become worse? Does the armour somehow become less functional? Did they ruin these models in the same manner one would ruin a model by slathering it with a two dozen layers of paint?  Is this objectively worse than the original out of the box sculpt? 

 

Depends how one does it. Like your conversions obviously are very skilful, and I notice you have not removed the extra detail on arms and thighs for example, so it is not making the model worse. I think it that extra detail that means that limbs are not just basic tubes, that the model actually has an abdomen etc, combined with the significantly improved proportions that makes the model look more realistic and functional. And you have pretty much kept that. 

[Evil Eye]

21 minutes ago, Crimson Longinus said:

 

No, just the same ones that have ushered GW into record profits year after year. 

Face it, you're in the minority. Overwhelmingly people think that primaris are a massive improvement, and when you look the models side by side it is pretty obvious why. 

 

 

Popularity/profitability =/= quality. Or are we now saying McDonalds' is the best food ever made because it's popular and profitable for the megacorp behind it?

[Wispy]

45 minutes ago, Evil Eye said:

Popularity/profitability =/= quality. Or are we now saying McDonalds' is the best food ever made because it's popular and profitable for the megacorp behind it?

You're a minority. It won't kill you to admit people genuinely like Primaris miniatures. Then again, maybe it would kill you.

Edited Sunday at 11:42 PM by Wispy

[LittlePlasticHomies]

Ah yes. New = bad vs new = good. I’m sure this will be the argument that settles it once and for all.

[MoriyaSchism]

14 minutes ago, Crimson Longinus said:

I think it that extra detail that means that limbs are not just basic tubes, that the model actually has an abdomen etc, combined with the significantly improved proportions that makes the model look more realistic and functional. And you have pretty much kept that. 

The scale was never an issue. Miniatures like the limited edition Captain Centos showed you could integrate classic abdomen detailing like the power cables and tubes without compromising on scale or perceived maneuverability. The thing about the arm details is that those extra plates aren't present on some Tacticus models like the Black Templars and are entirely absent on all Phobos arms. Some of the models are also missing the thigh plates as well, I've removed them on some of my models to represent slightly lighter suits. The plan is to get rid of it on some marks like Mk VI, I've done it for a couple of the Mk VI Lamenters I built for Kill Team 1.0. Primaris are half-way there to being perfect, they've showed us they could do it but for some reason it's relegated to limited edition miniatures or small bit inclusions that just amount to the same sort of cheap fanservice appeal to memory that you'd see in a cash-in Hollywood sequel to an old series. 

 

Edit: Small correction about the Phobos arms. The extra plates are present on the arms meant for the Phobos Kill Team demolitions specialist, he has extra armour on his arms and helmet. Not like it's relevant anymore, it's a discontinued product you can't get. An all too common occurrence with GW these days. 

Edited Sunday at 11:09 PM by MoriyaSchism

[phandaal]

2 minutes ago, LittlePlasticHomies said:

Ah yes. New = bad vs new = good. I’m sure this will be the argument that settles it once and for all.

 

Gee, if only someone had pointed this out like 7 hours and several pages ago:

 

 

[Crimson Longinus]

2 minutes ago, Evil Eye said:

Popularity/profitability =/= quality. Or are we now saying McDonalds' is the best food ever made because it's popular and profitable for the megacorp behind it?

 

*Sigh* This is just sad now. McD is popular because it has decent quality and accessibility for its price range, but obviously it is not best food around. 

But we are talking about products of same company with the same price range here. 

 

 

 

The level of denial is pretty insane here.

The deformed low detail dwarf on the right is not some superior piece of art, value of which only a true connoisseur can understand. 

 

 

 

 

 

[LittlePlasticHomies]

9 minutes ago, phandaal said:

Gee, if only someone had pointed this out like 7 hours and several pages ago:

Thank you phandaal you’re my hero

[Wispy]

I'm being pissy because it's going on a decade of this Primaris bashing and it's the same usual suspects being miserable everytime. I'll crowd fund their therapy just to have a release go by without being subjected to the same routine over and over.

Edited Sunday at 11:22 PM by Wispy

[FarFromSam]

14 minutes ago, Wispy said:

I'm being pissy because it's going on a decade of this Primaris bashing and it's the same usual suspects being miserable everytime. I'll crowd fund their therapy just to have a release go by without being subjected to the same routine over and over.

Internet isn't mandatory.  We all have a grey closet calling. Primaris infantry is nice.  Primaris lore, style, implementation and vehicles are Cawlful. 

 

(Edit) Sorry, half of primaris infantry are a vast improvement. 

Edited Sunday at 11:32 PM by FarFromSam
What I have to say is so supremely important I rushed.

[Lay]

If the argument about which looks better is about scale, then yes, of course Primaris look better than any old Firstborn kit.

If it's about design, well, the Horus Heresy is still going strong -  so I wouldn't knock older marks based on that.

[Wispy]

16 minutes ago, FarFromSam said:

Internet isn't mandatory.  We all have a grey closet calling. Primaris infantry is nice.  Primaris lore, style, implementation and vehicles are Cawlful. 

 

(Edit) Sorry, half of primaris infantry are a vast improvement. 

I don't care about your taste. I am talking about the same people here who relitigate their firstborn trauma everytime there is new Space Marine miniatures. We don't need to do this everytime. No one forgot where these usual suspects stood the last two dozen times they did this.

Edited Sunday at 11:47 PM by Wispy

[phandaal]

10 minutes ago, Wispy said:

I don't care about your taste. I am talking about the same people here who religate their firstborn trauma everytime there is new Space Marine miniatures. We don't need to do this everytime. No one forgot where these usual suspects stood the last two dozen times they did this. Did they need to do this repeatedly for 10 years? I challenge them to let it go. I promise you we won't forget what you said last time, no need to remind us.

 

This thread wasn't about that, until someone posted a meme mocking people who like the older style. Unfortunately, people will take that bait every time. You should try giving people a little more grace, considering how often what seems like people bringing their "trauma" up out of nowhere is actually just people feeling compelled to defend themselves when obvious bait gets thrown out. Maybe right answer is to not take the bait, but this is the Internet, and someone is going to. Ultimately, the moderators should be cleaning that stuff up before it has a chance to cause a stink.

 

Out of all the different threads though, this one is appropriate for discussing whether we like the inclusion of those older styles. That is exactly what this latest release does.

[Wispy]

5 minutes ago, phandaal said:

 

This thread wasn't about that, until someone posted a meme mocking people who like the older style. Unfortunately, people will take that bait every time. You should try giving people a little more grace, considering how often what seems like people bringing their "trauma" up out of nowhere is actually just people feeling compelled to defend themselves when obvious bait gets thrown out. Maybe right answer is to not take the bait, but this is the Internet, and someone is going to. Ultimately, the moderators should be cleaning that stuff up before it has a chance to cause a stink.

 

Out of all the different threads though, this one is appropriate for discussing whether we like the inclusion of those older styles. That is exactly what this latest release does.

They are going onwards to 10 years of grace, Phandaal. We're well past grace or benefits of the doubt. I feel like someone has to point out how rediculous this is.

 

Anyways, I admit I let myself lose my temper here and I'm inflaming things. There's no posting through this so I'm going to step away. Encourage others similarly animated by this to do the same.

[Robbienw]

1 hour ago, Crimson Longinus said:

 

No, just the same ones that have ushered GW into record profits year after year. 

Face it, you're in the minority. Overwhelmingly people think that primaris are a massive improvement, and when you look the models side by side it is pretty obvious why. 

 

 

Yes, those knee rims, plates on armour plants, extra long boltguns, stacked platform heels, dreadnoughts and Gravis with the body proportions of Winnie the poo etc - really a massive improvement 

 

GW’s profits increases haven’t been driven solely by space marines, their product range is huge.  It’s also been driven by better engagement on socials and by large numbers rediscovering the hobby during the covid era.

 

Remember to bear in mind you wouldn’t have your beloved MKX chaps in their totally non toy like armour without the success and broad appeal of previous space marine designs 

 

Also remember to bear in mind there are now newer firstborn modes in the current scale; comparing a current marine with a 2013 tactical instead of something like a series 1 heroes space marine or a newer 30k marine is hiding behind a safety blanket and is a red herring.  We can recognise newer designs have nicer proportions, whilst still preferring older design styles.

Edited Monday at 12:20 AM by Robbienw

[Evil Eye]

2 hours ago, Crimson Longinus said:

 

*Sigh* This is just sad now. McD is popular because it has decent quality and accessibility for its price range, but obviously it is not best food around. 

But we are talking about products of same company with the same price range here. 

 

 

 

The level of denial is pretty insane here.

The deformed low detail dwarf on the right is not some superior piece of art, value of which only a true connoisseur can understand. 

 

 

 

 

 

And pray tell me, why did they need to completely redo the design language and utterly butcher the fluff for Space Marines to... give them longer legs? They could have improved the proportions, sculpting and scaling for Space Marines without doing all of the above. They did it for Chaos Space Marines, they did it for Cadians, they did it for Eldar Guardians, they did it for Space Marines in 30K...what made Space Marines in 40K impossible to upscale without making them into something totally different?

 

Again, I actually think the contents of this box look pretty good for the most part. And in part that's because GW are leaning into the classic design language a bit more.

1 hour ago, Wispy said:

They are going onwards to 10 years of grace, Phandaal. We're well past grace or benefits of the doubt. I feel like someone has to point out how rediculous this is.

 

People complain about things happening they find disagreeable. Disagreeable things have been happening for nearly ten years. And until they stop happening, the complaining will continue from people who dislike the decisions- as is their right. If you are honestly that offended by people voicing a simple preference for one style of miniature over another, the problem lies with you.

[Scribe]

4 hours ago, Wispy said:

I know what you say but I don't believe you and think you are just making excuses for Small Dog Syndrome. *Shrugs*

 

Nah, my issue with Primaris has always been the lore, I've never seen them as anything but the obvious rescale they are, but the lore is a joke and the grav tanks are hideous.

 

And a way to get loyalists to buy whole new armies of Marines of course.

[Orange Knight]

All I'm going to say is:

 

1: The new lore is not objectively bad. There are interesting characters and entertaining developments. 40k is pulp sci-fi, and the quality of the lore has always been subjective with some aspects that resonate with people and some that don't. 

 

2: There are people - myself included - that do genuinely like the design of Primaris. I will also admit that some of the kits are not successful, but the overwhelming majority are. That's not a controversial opinion, but some people do refuse to accept that the new designs have merits.

 

Edited Monday at 03:45 AM by Orange Knight

[Scribe]

23 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

All I'm going to say is:

 

1: The new lore is not objectively bad. There are interesting characters and entertaining developments. 40k is pulp sci-fi, and the quality of the lore has always been subjective with some aspects that resonate with people and some that don't. 

 

2: There are people - myself included - that do genuinely like the design of Primaris. I will also admit that some of the kits are not successful, but the overwhelming majority are. That's not a controversial opinion, but some people do refuse to accept that the new designs have merits.

 

 

The design of the models by and large is not a problem. I even mentioned once they hit 9th, 10th core release and especially BT and SW, they found a sweet spot.

 

The lore is objectively bad and out of line with 40k for decades at that point, and Cawl is a lore abomination, but hey, at least the models are decent now for the most part.

[Antarius]

12 hours ago, MoriyaSchism said:

Funny that you mention that but the FW MkIV design is my least favourite helmet design. If anyone wants a pack of forty MkX helmets, hit me up. 

I'll take those off your hands, if you're serious.

Edited Monday at 04:59 AM by Antarius

[Nephaston]

I dunno, having much needed reinforcements, supplies, and enhancements siphoned and shelved in a freezer for ten thousand years by a guy with an ego (and because the only other guy who can approve it got stasis'd for a bit) only to be released and barely maintain the status quo, cause further interfactional strife, and prove that even the backwards and superstitious imperium will trample over its own regressive ideals in the service of providing marines new toys seems pretty on brand for me.

Especially with how unreliable a narrator old Cawly boy is.

[Antarius]

I assume that the Old vs New discussion has devolved into what it usually devolves into, so I admit I didn't bother reading it all before posting, but I still thought I'd chime in with my analysis as well as my opinion. I have tried to phrase the points I see as more analytical as neutrally as I can, whereas the things I feel are just about my personal taste are hopefully obvious.

- There will always be people who complain. They're not always the same people, though (but of course there are chronic complainers in the hobby, as well as everywhere else in the world). I sometimes grow weary of wading through complaints, but I think it is well worth remembering that the individual complaints/complainers are not part of a big, grumpy hivemind even though it can sometimes feel that way.
The truth is simply that GW cannot please everyone, so there will always be some complaints, no matter what they do/don't do.
 

- There's definitely a lot of resistance to new things, not necessarily just because they are new but because they are seen as taking the old stuff away. Which is sometimes wrong and sometimes right.
 

- There's a tendency for people who prefer the new/old stuff to phrase their pov as being more inherently reasonable and to gloss over the things that would seem to speak against their stance. An example that fits both camps would be the "Tactical vs Intercessor" picture, because it is quite difficult to point to something that made the (at the time relatively new) Tactical Marines more detailed/characterful/atmospheric than the Intercessors (apart from the iconic MK VII helmet, which I personally find is a big deal, but I completely understand why others might not agree).

- Nostalgia is definitely a thing in this hobby, but I don't think all complaints can be dismissed on just those grounds, nor do I think nostalgia only works against recent GW designs. I think they have done a whole lot of very succesful nostalgic designs lately and a couple of (from my perspective) less succesful. Some will (of course) complain about "nostalgia farming" but I personally feel that when a design is redone in a good way it's absolutely fine. If they're done in a less stellar way, well, it just is what it is and I don't see it as inherently worse than a "new" sculpt I'm not thrilled about.

- I don't think it's possible to get around the fact that GW has put out an almost unfathomable amount of Space Marines over the last 40 years or so. Whatever else might be said about it, this means that a) there's not a lot of completely new ideas to draw on (not obviously good ones, anyway) and b) they've done a whole lot of incremental changes, innovations and refinements (whether you like all of these or not). So, at this point, they're quite experienced and adept at making Space Marines, but that doesn't mean they're not still trying out new things.
Not all of these new things will be to everyone's liking, just like not all of the old minis were to everyone's liking. That's just how it is when it comes to aesthetics.

- When we don't like the new things they do, it's a quite natural impulse to see it as inherently less artistic and more as a "money grab" and it's probably fair to say that while GW always wanted to move product, there did maybe seem to be a different "spirit" back in the beginning. However, we'd have to go back at least 25 years or so to point to a time where things were truly different in that regard (if, indeed, they ever were).
All this is simply to say that the whole "Evil Empire Doing Things For Money" line of criticism quickly becomes a bit silly, as the things we are nostalgic for/preferred to the newer stuff do not come from a meaningfully different place.

- I do think the criticism that a new product seems uninspired or "lazy" can sometimes be written off a bit too easily by going "this is how it's always been", but the thing is, it's difficult to truly, meaningfully discuss these things as they're mostly about subjective taste. Hence, we want to point to things outside ourselves to support our points and that is where a lot of the "back in the day things were better/worse", "you just don't like it because it's new/old", "it's just a money grab" and similar not-really-arguments come from. Indeed, it is sometimes difficult to see what else we could discuss.

- I personally feel that Primaris is a very mixed bag. Partly because they are coupled with lore developments that I just don't find interesting in any way (and so, I will refrain from saying that all of the new lore is objectively inferior to all the old lore, as I have not bothered to read it all. But I feel it is quite fair to say that the fundamental change that Primaris represents is simply not to my taste and so, I know enough to say that I do not enjoy it - and that it is not unreasonable to feel this way).
The other part is the model design and this is where I think things become more nuanced. I can't recall seeing anyone complain about the new size and proportions - I certainly feel that in this regard Primaris are what Space Marines should always have been (apart, perhaps, from the bolt rifles - I prefer the iconic boltgun although I can pretend that a bolt rifle is a boltgun without too much trouble). However, I think there are lots of other complaints that one may or may not agree with, but that can't just be dismissed as "nostalgia" or similar. I mean, the Mk VII helmet in particular was literally the face of Space Marines for a very long time and, more generally speaking, the perceived "ancientness" and "primitive sci-fi" feel of the armour was a big thing (even if it was mostly in the lore) and in this regard, I don't think all the Primaris developments are very succesful.

- At the end of the day, whether I like something or not, I look for the things I do like and I look for the things I can change into something I like. I had to do this with the older minis too and while I'm definitely not saying that you should just buy everything whether you like it or not because you can just change it, I do think it's a better approach to your hobby life to concentrate on the things that bring you happiness.
We cannot change GW, but we can choose what we do with our hobby time (and money) and at the end of the day, it's our job to make sure that we are happy and fulfilled with our hobby life.