Armageddon: The Space Marine Half

[Blindhamster]

7 hours ago, FarFromSam said:

Cawlful

I see what you did there, I chuckled.

[Laurence]

2 hours ago, Nephaston said:

I dunno, having much needed reinforcements, supplies, and enhancements siphoned and shelved in a freezer for ten thousand years by a guy with an ego (and because the only other guy who can approve it got stasis'd for a bit) only to be released and barely maintain the status quo, cause further interfactional strife, and prove that even the backwards and superstitious imperium will trample over its own regressive ideals in the service of providing marines new toys seems pretty on brand for me.

Especially with how unreliable a narrator old Cawly boy is.

Yeah, the basic concept of sudden Primaris reinforcements may be immersion-breaking, but Guy Haley definitely made the best of whatever mandate was handed down to him: I find Cawl to be a genuinely fun character in the novels.

[Marshal Rohr]

I like it. It doesn’t move me and lacks the “Jenny say kwa” of Indomitus, but I think it’s a much better start box than Indomitus. I couldn’t even tell you what was in Leviathan besides terminators. Flamers? Or something?

[Antarius]

Yeah, I think there is something to be said for the "lack of design space"complaint in the sense that it is diffcult to be genuinely "wowed" by a starter box that is both a good starter box and also recognizably "classic" and "Space Marine". I mean, when they have to check all those boxes, there's bound to be a bit of "eh, I've seen it before" going on.

[Marshal Loss]

Bit torn between whether to paint up the SM half as White Scars or Crimson Fists. I really love utilitarian looking White Scars but it feels like a crime to not do the boys in blue with how good that Crimson Fist Intercessor looks...

 

 

At least there's no Lamenters transfers in the box or I'd have been tempted to do something stupid 

[Wispy]

7 hours ago, Evil Eye said:

People complain about things happening they find disagreeable. Disagreeable things have been happening for nearly ten years. And until they stop happening, the complaining will continue from people who dislike the decisions- as is their right. If you are honestly that offended by people voicing a simple preference for one style of miniature over another, the problem lies with you.

The mods have stomped out this discourse a number of times so no It is not actually anyone's right. If everything is so disagreeable and you need to be in a constant state of relitigating the same disagreements, I think it's maybe time for one to ask themselves what the heck are they doing here and if this hobby or community is even for them.

 

Obviously everyone is welcome to be here and I wouldn't want to force anyone out of the hobby, but for Pete's sake it wouldn't hurt anyone to have some restraint and pick their battles, focus on what they enjoy, and try to be constructive about what they don't. Hobby's are supposed to be fun, and that's the last I'll say on this.

Edited Monday at 09:23 AM by Wispy

[Maritn]

I'm glad they are keeping the knee rims, I really like to look of them.  Looks more knightly to me, but YMMV.

[Crimson Longinus]

9 minutes ago, Maritn said:

I'm glad they are keeping the knee rims, I really like to look of them.  Looks more knightly to me, but YMMV.

 

Some people really seem to hate them. I don't understand why,* they look fine.

 

* (Ok, I know why: the minimarines did not have them, thus they're anathema.)

 

That being said, I think primaris also look fine without them. Blood Claws look very nice. I don't think they're something every marine needs to have, they're just a little bit of extra armour like the raised rims on some shoulderpads or the waist tassets. 

[Gorgoff]

4 minutes ago, Crimson Longinus said:

 

Some people really seem to hate them. I don't understand why,* they look fine.

 

Not fine, they look like fins. *gnihihihiihi*

 

Seriously though I always despised those kind of rims on knees. I found them ugly on Stormcast eternals and I find them ugly now. 

I really don't like the whole look of stormcast Eternals in general and accordingly I don't like Primaris because they look like the sci fi version of those.

Boring, vanilla Sci-Fi-dudes-in-armour.

Doesn't look at all like the Grimdark Gothic Warrior Monks I love.

 

Only their poses are great. 

 

All the not vanilla Primsris are usually fine though. Black Templars in particular are awesome. 

[MoriyaSchism]

2 hours ago, Antarius said:

Yeah, I think there is something to be said for the "lack of design space"complaint in the sense that it is diffcult to be genuinely "wowed" by a starter box that is both a good starter box and also recognizably "classic" and "Space Marine". I mean, when they have to check all those boxes, there's bound to be a bit of "eh, I've seen it before" going on.

If we are in the minority and the majority are new people shouldn't it be easy to "wow" the majority with things they simply haven't experienced before? I don't like the uncanny feeling that comes from seeing the same pose and an old model getting referenced but all the details you liked about the old model are either gone or they are wrong. That sort of feeling made a model like Coteaz so horrible. I like 90% of the box, but I hate that Librarian. The more I thought about it I went from "I guess it's alright" to "I hate it". The original has a more subdued pose, while the new model is doing the ever-hated power stance on a stone surfboard. I also dislike the leather cape with red velvet on the inside he has instead of the old model's toga/robe, the way it rests under the psychic hood cabling makes it look like a strange sleeveless coat or bathrobe. My final verdict on the miniature rests on how usable the parts are. 

Modifying him might be doable, if I fail I'll just harvest the staff arms and the psychic hood from his body. I'm definitely buying this box so I'll see how it goes.

[Crimson Longinus]

17 minutes ago, Gorgoff said:

Not fine, they look like fins. *gnihihihiihi*

 

Seriously though I always despised those kind of rims on knees. I found them ugly on Stormcast eternals and I find them ugly now. 

I really don't like the whole look of stormcast Eternals in general and accordingly I don't like Primaris because they look like the sci fi version of those.

Boring, vanilla Sci-Fi-dudes-in-armour.

Doesn't look at all like the Grimdark Gothic Warrior Monks I love.

 

Only their poses are great. 

 

All the not vanilla Primsris are usually fine though. Black Templars in particular are awesome. 

 

That is weird, because the things like the knee rim make it look more gothic. They are part of the same design language than the raised rims on some shoulderpads and the high gorgets. They look more like tacticool scifi troopers without them. 

[MoriyaSchism]

2 minutes ago, Crimson Longinus said:

 

That is weird, because the things like the knee rim make it look more gothic. They are part of the same design language than the raised rims on some shoulderpads and the high gorgets. They look more like tacticool scifi troopers without them. 

The better gothic design detail near the knee is the side plate Primaris Black Templar models and Bladeguard have (also present on Grey Knights Terminators). It looks so much better once you crop the knee rim. The knee rim is a non-issue really, it's easily removed. Still, it feels uncanny on plates that are supposed to call back to Mark VI armour. 

[jaxom]

8 minutes ago, MoriyaSchism said:

The knee rim is a non-issue really, it's easily removed. Still, it feels uncanny on plates that are supposed to call back to Mark VI armour. 

I was looking at the new Grey Hunters earlier and that, for me, became one of those things that once I noticed it, I couldn’t stop staring.

 

40 minutes ago, Gorgoff said:

Black Templars in particular are awesome.

I think the BT set the bar too high for all other marine infantry. It’s so good! To me it is the perfect blend of new and old  design cues and the rivet(?) armored pieces help balance the sci-fi elements.

[Crimson Longinus]

15 minutes ago, MoriyaSchism said:

The better gothic design detail near the knee is the side plate Primaris Black Templar models and Bladeguard have (also present on Grey Knights Terminators). It looks so much better once you crop the knee rim. The knee rim is a non-issue really, it's easily removed. Still, it feels uncanny on plates that are supposed to call back to Mark VI armour. 

 

I think those features go together very well and and whilst I've removed knee rims from some models, I would definitely never remove it from ones with the knee side plate, or from any model I wanted to convey gothic knightly aesthetic. Plain knees convey more tacticool, stormtroopery feel. And I don't think Mk X is callback to any specific armour, even though the helm greatly resembles Mk VI. It is just the marine armour Jes Goodwin though would look the best. And he was right. But your comment shows exactly where a lot of criticism comes from "it looks off, because the old models didn't have that." Mainly I do not look Mk X on those terms, I look it as its own thing, and it is good design. 

 

Same than with your criticism of the librarian. Most of it was just listing things that are different from the old design. I don't care about whether it looks like the old model, I care whether it looks good. 

 

Edited Monday at 12:19 PM by Crimson Longinus

[Maritn]

19 minutes ago, Crimson Longinus said:

 

That is weird, because the things like the knee rim make it look more gothic. They are part of the same design language than the raised rims on some shoulderpads and the high gorgets. They look more like tacticool scifi troopers without them. 

 

Yeah, even the added armour plates at the waist/legs make it look more knightly and gothic to me. 

And it's not like I know nothing but Primaris. I played 3rd-5th but later sold almost all my models, and returned at the start of 8th just because I wanted to play Space Marines again. From the first Intercessor I assembled I realised that I loved these new models even more than my models from back in the day. The new Terminators are (like their older brethren) my favourite models, but I also love Aggressors (hooray for chonky armour).

 

But yeah, I'm not going to argue with anyone, just wanted voice my opinion on Primaris and that it's not only the proportions but also the new armour some people like more.

[phandaal]

56 minutes ago, Crimson Longinus said:

 

Some people really seem to hate them. I don't understand why,* they look fine.

 

* (Ok, I know why: the minimarines did not have them, thus they're anathema.)

 

That being said, I think primaris also look fine without them. Blood Claws look very nice. I don't think they're something every marine needs to have, they're just a little bit of extra armour like the raised rims on some shoulderpads or the waist tassets. 

 

Out of all the up-armored details on MkX (gorget, hip armor, backpack armor, ab armor etc), the knee rims are my least favorite. It just looks "off" to me when looking at most of the new models. Would have preferred if those were just a Bladeguard thing.

 

Unfortunately, knee rims seem to be a quintessential detail for GW so it is almost always present on MkX. Fortunately, it is not too difficult to trim them off. One thing I really like about the Space Wolf refresh is that not every model has them.

[Crimson Longinus]

2 minutes ago, phandaal said:

 

Out of all the up-armored details on MkX (gorget, hip armor, backpack armor, ab armor etc), the knee rims are my least favorite. It just looks "off" to me when looking at most of the new models. Would have preferred if those were just a Bladeguard thing.

 

Unfortunately, knee rims seem to be a quintessential detail for GW so it is almost always present on MkX. Fortunately, it is not too difficult to trim them off. One thing I really like about the Space Wolf refresh is that not every model has them.

 

I like them on models I want to look armoured and solid, but I agree with you that not every model needs to have them. I recently built some Blood Claws, and I think the lack of knee rims combined with lower gorgets helps them to feel agile and fast.

 

And yeah, Bladeguard have the best knee rims, as they integrates well to the rest of their up-armoured design. 

[MoriyaSchism]

23 minutes ago, Crimson Longinus said:

 

I think those features go together very well and and whilst I've removed knee rims from some models, I would definitely never remove it from ones with the knee side plate, or from any model I wanted to convey gothic knightly aesthetic. Plain knees convey more tacticool, stormtroopery feel. And I don't think Mk X is callback to any specific armour, even though the helm greatly resembles Mk VI. It is just the marine armour Jes Goodwin though would look the best. And he was right. But your comment shows exactly where a lot of criticism comes from "it looks off, because the old models didn't have that." Mainly I do not look Mk X on those terms, I look it as its own thing, and it is good design.

 

In some cases it looks off because it clashes with my taste. For example the blue gems on both sides of the Librarian's chest and his sleeveless trench coat under the cabling. Things that resemble coats on models that have no place having them are rather strange, I remember when they slapped a coat on the Deathleaper (thankfully it's easily removed, but damn). Or his leather gloves on power armour that give me the same feeling when I see a helmetless model without an Iron Halo or Rosarius, I just see someone who is going to get horribly maimed by small arms fire. If this was on an entirely new design for something like the Leagues of Votann or like a new sanctioned Psyker for the Guard I'd point out the same things.

[Evil Eye]

5 hours ago, Wispy said:

The mods have stomped out this discourse a number of times so no It is not actually anyone's right. If everything is so disagreeable and you need to be in a constant state of relitigating the same disagreements, I think it's maybe time for one to ask themselves what the heck are they doing here and if this hobby or community is even for them.

 

Obviously everyone is welcome to be here and I wouldn't want to force anyone out of the hobby, but for Pete's sake it wouldn't hurt anyone to have some restraint and pick their battles, focus on what they enjoy, and try to be constructive about what they don't. Hobby's are supposed to be fun, and that's the last I'll say on this.

I mean, I for one was unambiguously positive about the contents of the box. Things were going pretty well until Orange Knight decided to dredge the same argument up again. Or are you saying that making inflammatory pot shots at people who prefer older designs/art direction is fine but countering said pot shots is bad? "It's OK when we do it" etc?

[FarFromSam]

9 hours ago, Antarius said:

I assume that the Old vs New discussion has devolved into what it usually devolves into, so I admit I didn't bother reading it all before posting, but I still thought I'd chime in with my analysis as well as my opinion. I have tried to phrase the points I see as more analytical as neutrally as I can, whereas the things I feel are just about my personal taste are hopefully obvious.

- There will always be people who complain. They're not always the same people, though (but of course there are chronic complainers in the hobby, as well as everywhere else in the world). I sometimes grow weary of wading through complaints, but I think it is well worth remembering that the individual complaints/complainers are not part of a big, grumpy hivemind even though it can sometimes feel that way.
The truth is simply that GW cannot please everyone, so there will always be some complaints, no matter what they do/don't do.
 

- There's definitely a lot of resistance to new things, not necessarily just because they are new but because they are seen as taking the old stuff away. Which is sometimes wrong and sometimes right.
 

- There's a tendency for people who prefer the new/old stuff to phrase their pov as being more inherently reasonable and to gloss over the things that would seem to speak against their stance. An example that fits both camps would be the "Tactical vs Intercessor" picture, because it is quite difficult to point to something that made the (at the time relatively new) Tactical Marines more detailed/characterful/atmospheric than the Intercessors (apart from the iconic MK VII helmet, which I personally find is a big deal, but I completely understand why others might not agree).

- Nostalgia is definitely a thing in this hobby, but I don't think all complaints can be dismissed on just those grounds, nor do I think nostalgia only works against recent GW designs. I think they have done a whole lot of very succesful nostalgic designs lately and a couple of (from my perspective) less succesful. Some will (of course) complain about "nostalgia farming" but I personally feel that when a design is redone in a good way it's absolutely fine. If they're done in a less stellar way, well, it just is what it is and I don't see it as inherently worse than a "new" sculpt I'm not thrilled about.

- I don't think it's possible to get around the fact that GW has put out an almost unfathomable amount of Space Marines over the last 40 years or so. Whatever else might be said about it, this means that a) there's not a lot of completely new ideas to draw on (not obviously good ones, anyway) and b) they've done a whole lot of incremental changes, innovations and refinements (whether you like all of these or not). So, at this point, they're quite experienced and adept at making Space Marines, but that doesn't mean they're not still trying out new things.
Not all of these new things will be to everyone's liking, just like not all of the old minis were to everyone's liking. That's just how it is when it comes to aesthetics.

- When we don't like the new things they do, it's a quite natural impulse to see it as inherently less artistic and more as a "money grab" and it's probably fair to say that while GW always wanted to move product, there did maybe seem to be a different "spirit" back in the beginning. However, we'd have to go back at least 25 years or so to point to a time where things were truly different in that regard (if, indeed, they ever were).
All this is simply to say that the whole "Evil Empire Doing Things For Money" line of criticism quickly becomes a bit silly, as the things we are nostalgic for/preferred to the newer stuff do not come from a meaningfully different place.

- I do think the criticism that a new product seems uninspired or "lazy" can sometimes be written off a bit too easily by going "this is how it's always been", but the thing is, it's difficult to truly, meaningfully discuss these things as they're mostly about subjective taste. Hence, we want to point to things outside ourselves to support our points and that is where a lot of the "back in the day things were better/worse", "you just don't like it because it's new/old", "it's just a money grab" and similar not-really-arguments come from. Indeed, it is sometimes difficult to see what else we could discuss.

- I personally feel that Primaris is a very mixed bag. Partly because they are coupled with lore developments that I just don't find interesting in any way (and so, I will refrain from saying that all of the new lore is objectively inferior to all the old lore, as I have not bothered to read it all. But I feel it is quite fair to say that the fundamental change that Primaris represents is simply not to my taste and so, I know enough to say that I do not enjoy it - and that it is not unreasonable to feel this way).
The other part is the model design and this is where I think things become more nuanced. I can't recall seeing anyone complain about the new size and proportions - I certainly feel that in this regard Primaris are what Space Marines should always have been (apart, perhaps, from the bolt rifles - I prefer the iconic boltgun although I can pretend that a bolt rifle is a boltgun without too much trouble). However, I think there are lots of other complaints that one may or may not agree with, but that can't just be dismissed as "nostalgia" or similar. I mean, the Mk VII helmet in particular was literally the face of Space Marines for a very long time and, more generally speaking, the perceived "ancientness" and "primitive sci-fi" feel of the armour was a big thing (even if it was mostly in the lore) and in this regard, I don't think all the Primaris developments are very succesful.

- At the end of the day, whether I like something or not, I look for the things I do like and I look for the things I can change into something I like. I had to do this with the older minis too and while I'm definitely not saying that you should just buy everything whether you like it or not because you can just change it, I do think it's a better approach to your hobby life to concentrate on the things that bring you happiness.
We cannot change GW, but we can choose what we do with our hobby time (and money) and at the end of the day, it's our job to make sure that we are happy and fulfilled with our hobby life.

This was a nice wholesome post.  What is your favorite marine unit from the box and which was your least liked? 

[mecanojavi99]

2 hours ago, MoriyaSchism said:

In some cases it looks off because it clashes with my taste. For example the blue gems on both sides of the Librarian's chest and his sleeveless trench coat under the cabling. Things that resemble coats on models that have no place having them are rather strange, I remember when they slapped a coat on the Deathleaper (thankfully it's easily removed, but damn). Or his leather gloves on power armour that give me the same feeling when I see a helmetless model without an Iron Halo or Rosarius, I just see someone who is going to get horribly maimed by small arms fire. If this was on an entirely new design for something like the Leagues of Votann or like a new sanctioned Psyker for the Guard I'd point out the same things.

Pretty sure it is well established in the lore that marines wear normal armoured gauntlets under the leather ones

[MoriyaSchism]

1 minute ago, mecanojavi99 said:

Pretty sure it is well established in the lore that marines wear normal armoured gauntlets under the leather ones

Are you sure? Look at the thickness of the fingers on that model. 

[FarFromSam]

8 minutes ago, mecanojavi99 said:

Pretty sure it is well established in the lore that marines wear normal armoured gauntlets under the leather ones

What?  Why? 

[Wispy]

2 hours ago, Evil Eye said:

I mean, I for one was unambiguously positive about the contents of the box. Things were going pretty well until Orange Knight decided to dredge the same argument up again. Or are you saying that making inflammatory pot shots at people who prefer older designs/art direction is fine but countering said pot shots is bad? "It's OK when we do it" etc?

You're always finding something you feel entitled to react to. This is where the restraint I mentioned comes in. Ten years, man.

Edited Monday at 04:52 PM by Wispy

[Scribe]

16 minutes ago, Wispy said:

This is where the restraint I mentioned comes in.

 

If you are going to make a claim about people's motivations, you should expect a response to lead to further discussion. 

 

So practice what you preach I suppose, or you'll just see commentary you don't like in response to your mistaken assumptions.